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  1. #961
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    And Jackalope89 is saying that there isn't any more of a fantastic for Jon as a teenager, let alone Jon as Superman, than there is for Luke as Batman.
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  2. #962
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecretWarrior View Post
    There isn't anything remotely bigoted about your post, but from my perspective it doesn't seem plausible for an image conscious company seeking to look more diverse through this initiative. Their mileage on these characters will vary, as we saw with ANAD Marvel.
    You mean the books that got attacked for this-
    focusing first and foremost on the characters race has a tendency to cause you to not focus enough on the character's personality, background, or story potential.
    The gators and their minority shields made race the issue. Based on not FULLY reading the books in question.

    Moon Girl never bought up her race.
    Riri never bought up her race. Nor called herself Iron Man unlike Dr Doom.
    Flint of the Inhumans did not.
    Ms Marvel did not.
    Nighthawk-I want to say he did not.
    Blue Marvel nor Monica did not in Ultimates.
    Mosaic did not.
    Miles Morales did ONCE and he said he did NOT want to be known as black Spider-Man. Never mind in his first run someone said "see Spider-Man is black".
    Cho Hulk did not and NO him teaming up with all Asian heroes is not that. If so call out New Superman.
    So if they were NOT doing that-what was the issue????

    Because if that was the issue-where were they with CYBORG?
    Cyborg's pitch was to DEFINE him as a black man in Detroit. Race was only bought up ONCE in issue 4 where he met Cyborg's little buddy Xenephon Clark .

    focusing first and foremost on the characters race has a tendency to cause you to not focus enough on the character's personality, background, or story potential.
    Can you name those books?

    Because they don't exist. All this nonsense about color over character are lead by those who do NOT read the books. They just see who is on the cover and it's crying time.

    MAYBE just MAYBE the issue is far too many writers & editors of the 70-90s only used black people for RACISM or GHETTO stories.
    MAYBE just MAYBE there are far too many writers/editors who can not be BOTHERED to develop a black person.

    Because it FUNNY Johns can make Michael Holt & Jakeem Thunder interesting on JSA but can't with John Stewart and Cyborg.
    Priest can do wonders with Tanya Spears & Wallace but no one else can. Benjamin Percy describe Wallace as Damian's bytch for Teen Titans.
    Tom King can't do anything with Duke Thomas but Rodney Barnes can. Jury still out on Bryan Hill.
    Compare Storm under Black Panther versus the last 20 years of X-Men.
    Look at the hatchet job being done to Black Panther by a fake woke writer who thinks Wakanda is Hotel Rwanda.

    Yes you will hear about a person wanting to create a POC-we saw it with Ms Marvel. HOWEVER we also saw DEVELOPMENT with her. In and OUTSIDE her book.

    We are still waiting for that here.

  3. #963
    Fantastic Member HunterX's Avatar
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    Jon has a fanbase at least so it kind of makes sense? Diana can only work if she gets replaced by one of the Wonder Girls...which doesn't seem to be the case.

    I'm excited for GL and Flash though....Long overdue....Maybe Owen can make it work, he is Giorno Giovanna of the family.
    Is there even any solid news that this Owen Mercer guy is going to be the successor to Barry/Flash?. If Owen can make it work then maybe Luke can too. Does Owen have a real fanbase either? I would think a Bat character would be more known, Batwing has had his own comics and Luke Fox is one of the main characters in the new CW show BatWoman. That may help raise his profile a bit.


    Last edited by HunterX; 12-14-2019 at 05:56 PM.

  4. #964
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterfall View Post
    I don't care or like Jon so no comment here. I'm just saying there is at least some basis for it.
    Except, Jon's fans keep feeling shafted more and more by the directions Bendis has been pushing the character since taking over. And taking over as Superman? Perhaps in the distant future, we would have been okay with it. But like this? No.

    Jon has a fanbase, yes. But that fanbase wants nothing to do with this direction, that's the problem.

  5. #965
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    DC is relying more on the interest in these brands for this initiative more than they're relying on their unexpected choices to have existing fanbases.

  6. #966
    Astonishing Member kurenai24's Avatar
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    The Owen Mercer Jr thing is as solid as the other choices BC has heard through the grapevine, although the Jon and Luke ones are looking more and more factual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post

    Indeed. I'm curious what you come up with, starting with the ones we know: what does Jonathan bring to the role of Superman that's different than what Clark brought to it? What does Luke bring to the role of Batman that's different from Bruce? If Maxima turns out to be Diana's replacement, what does she bring to the role of Wonder Woman? etc.
    Looking at it from this angle is actually harder to think about, we'd probably have to guess what part or half of the pitch was to use these characters...

    What we do know (Superman, Batman, Flash, Green Lantern):

    Jon

    Personality - He'll be aged again like it says on the timelines so his personality is probably gonna be similar to Clark's as he's gotten a bit older (possibly).

    Part of the pitch - Jon is bringing an actual legacy to the title of Superman and he'll be living under the pressures of who his parents are.

    Luke

    Personality - He has a lighter personality than Bruce.

    Part of the pitch - At this moment in time, his whole family is alive, so he's not gonna be coming at being Batman in the same way, with the same anger, revenge or whatever else.

    Owen Mercer Jr.

    Personality - Bueller? Idk this character or his personality.

    Part of the pitch - His father was a villain, he was a villain, I'm not sure if people, let alone if DC remembers that this character was in the Suicicde Squad but if they do, he'll always have to prove himself to his peers.

    Keli or Jo

    Personality - Both have yet to show their full personality, but I would say that Keli is creative and can be impulsive, while Jo is a bit sassy and sarcastic.

    Part of the pitch - I don't really know considering books have been given to every human green lantern, if anything this is just another tradition.

    What we don't know (Aquaman and Wonder Woman):

    Jackson

    Personality - It's different from Kalduur on the YJ cartoon isn't it... Tbh, I don't know his personality either.

    Part of the Pitch - His dad is villain, and a well known enemy to Aquaman. I have no idea what else the pitch would be especially b/c hos falls short in comparison to Owen's.

    Donna, Cassie, Artemis, Nubia, Grace, Viking Judge, Maxima, Grail, etc

    Personality - I don't know these characters like that but I do know about half of these women are bit more aggressive, headstrong, and stubborn than Wonder Woman.

    Part of the pitch - Once again, I don't know these characters like that, but both Artemis and Grace are Bana-Mighdall, same mythology different "tribe" of Amazons for DC if they want to keep exploreing that more, plus Artemis does have that Bow of Ra quest. Viking Judge is connected to a different mythology through her heritage, and is connected to gods of that mythology through a weapon, and she wants to deliver justice. With Maxima, usually the DC books focuses on characters that are from earth or live on earth now, so this would be different, all the while still following a princess or rather a queen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Except, Jon's fans keep feeling shafted more and more by the directions Bendis has been pushing the character since taking over. And taking over as Superman? Perhaps in the distant future, we would have been okay with it. But like this? No.

    Jon has a fanbase, yes. But that fanbase wants nothing to do with this direction, that's the problem.
    I mean let's be honest here, if another writer was writing this, half of those Jon fans would be praising the decision.

    There is no way anyone can tell whether or not Jon fans dislike this direction b/c of Bendis or b/c they actually prefer child Jon, even if they say they would hate this change no matter who was writing this, me being a Miles Morales fan has taught me I can't believe a word people say if it involves Bendis.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecretWarrior View Post
    DC is relying more on the interest in these brands for this initiative more than they're relying on their unexpected choices to have existing fanbases.
    This is true, if they cared about these 5G characters having fanbases than they would go for the known sidekicks. This is about using the power of brands and so far the only rule is these characters just have to already exist in the DC universe.

  7. #967
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    Quote Originally Posted by kurenai24 View Post
    Cassie's a good choice, it's her being an obvious choice and from a defined generation that could be a drawback.
    I think a bigger issue is that (if I'm looking at their current book) they basically changed the whole YL generation back to pre graduation day, in the current incarnation she is just not really at a point where she could transition from Girl to Woman.

  8. #968
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    Quote Originally Posted by HunterX View Post
    Is there even any solid news that this Owen Mercer guy is going to be the successor to Barry/Flash?. If Owen can make it work then maybe Luke can too. Does Owen have a real fanbase either?
    The thing about Owen is that he is pretty different from the conventional Flash Family members (he is for example not really a speedster), so his Flash might be very unconventional.

    I'm not sure if Luke really brings that much new to the table.

  9. #969

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    I'm a fan of Far Sector so im ok with new characters taking over. I wouldn't mind Young Animal did some Far Sector spinoffs with new versions of the Flash etc.
    Last edited by the illustrious mr. kenway; 12-15-2019 at 10:47 AM.

  10. #970
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kurenai24 View Post
    Jon

    Personality - He'll be aged again like it says on the timelines so his personality is probably gonna be similar to Clark's as he's gotten a bit older (possibly).

    Part of the pitch - Jon is bringing an actual legacy to the title of Superman and he'll be living under the pressures of who his parents are.
    Also don't forget that unlike Clark, Jon will have spent the majority of his life after 11 years old either in space, on another Earth, and in the far future. His perspective and the way he approaches a situation is likely to be different. That's actually already been shown with Jon coming up with the idea for the United Planets when neither Clark nor Kara had anything similar on their minds. And that idea was implied to have come from Jon breaking down the the base issues out in space to be similar to the base issues he's seen on Earth back in issue 7 of Superman.

    And yes at the crux of his character is the feeling of needing to live up to a legacy and standard set by his parents (verbalized in issue 4 of Lois Lane, and in issue 7 of Superman). There's a level of baseline respect and reverence that nearly all characters (on Earth or around the galaxy) in Bendis' run have given Clark because of who he is and what he does. It's to the point where in issue 14 Clark assumes that he and his family are under arrest, but the high ranking Thanagarian official literally goes "what? No! You're Superman, of course you're not under arrest".

    Will the same reverence be given to Jon? Should it be? How does he take it if it is or isn't? Back in issue 7 after a Green Lantern goes "hey looks it's the son of Superman" and "I owe your dad dozen favors", another GL goes "it would've been more impressive if it were actually Superman."

    Also lets not forget that Jon will also have to navigate not only the newly formed United Planets, but also his dad being "President of Earth". Disagreeing with his father on things is now escalated to a galactic scale. Outside of being physically resembling his dad, he's a whole new beast.
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  11. #971
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I mean let's be honest here, if another writer was writing this, half of those Jon fans would be praising the decision.

    There is no way anyone can tell whether or not Jon fans dislike this direction b/c of Bendis or b/c they actually prefer child Jon, even if they say they would hate this change no matter who was writing this, me being a Miles Morales fan has taught me I can't believe a word people say if it involves Bendis.
    I don't believe this. You can very much tell just by interacting with his fans and listening to what they liked about him. I'm not a Jon fan but I've engaged with his fans very much (mostly arguing but still) and its not a Bendis thing. His fans specifically liked him being the young son of Superman. The appeal was the wide-eyed child learning the ropes by his famous father. Aging him once limits the guidance and dynamic the parents provide and a large part of their described enjoyment of the angle. Aging him again will remove it entirely. It'll turn things into a post-Crisis Ma and Pa/Clark dynamic and that was never the appeal to Jon's fans. I don't see where what writer it is weighs in. Its a conceptual disagreement. The fans who just plain dislike Bendis were the ones who just hated the idea on principle from the very announcement, without a single detail.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 12-15-2019 at 12:11 PM.
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  12. #972
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kurenai24 View Post
    I mean let's be honest here, if another writer was writing this, half of those Jon fans would be praising the decision.

    There is no way anyone can tell whether or not Jon fans dislike this direction b/c of Bendis or b/c they actually prefer child Jon, even if they say they would hate this change no matter who was writing this, me being a Miles Morales fan has taught me I can't believe a word people say if it involves Bendis.
    To be clear, I had NEVER read Bendis before he came to DC and gave him a chance when he did. The entire direction he's taken Jon, not to mention the many other times he's written characters OOC, "Bendis speak" which I find annoying, and just his overall direction...

    Good for you for enjoying a Marvel character that was created by Bendis. The character I enjoyed has basically been erased by Bendis for Clark Jr.

  13. #973
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    It'll turn things into a post-Crisis Ma and Pa/Clark dynamic and that was never the appeal to Jon's fans.
    Right, if Pa were the most famous being in the galaxy as well as President of Earth reshaping the galaxy via involvement in a galactic governing body, and Ma were a journalist with enough reach an influence that she can construct teams of DC heroes and anti-heroes at a moments notice.

    But you ya know, details, details
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  14. #974
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I'm speaking from an emotional point of view. Yes the details are different but those details are meaningless for Jon's fans because the dynamic from an emotional point of view is changed completely, and that was a large part of the initial appeal. That his dad is president of Earth, that Lois is a journalist, doesn't change that they liked the relationships from a perspective of a 10-11 year old child. That's obviously been fundamentally changed and will be changed even further when he's aged up for the second time to a grown man. That's where my Ma and Pa comparison comes from. Not in the details but in the likely general dynamic. The details don't matter to them, and I don't blame them for that. Just as in my eyes being President of Earth doesn't change how stupid dropping the secret ID is, being groomed to be/becoming Superman won't change how stupid Jon's forced aging was to them.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 12-15-2019 at 01:12 PM.
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  15. #975
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I'm speaking from an emotional point of view. Yes the details are different but those details are meaningless for Jon's fans
    I was mostly being checky.

    And maybe shouldn't be generalized that it's all his fans given I'm one of those Jon fans who has debated with you, yet I'm still open to this.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 12-15-2019 at 04:34 PM.
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