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  1. #211
    Astonishing Member kingaliencracker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Stone View Post
    Replacing all the characters is just ripe for dropping more long-time readers.
    And they had just dropped some with New52.

    New52 created 'endpoints' for readers (and mostly collectors) to give a definitive stopping point for all of DC's titles.
    Quite possibly part of the reason back-issue sales and classic trades are doing better than many current titles.

    5G could do the same thing, but this time for characters more than titles.
    And it may end up being the stopgap for New52, giving the new readers that came in with it their own drop off point.

    It's very possible that after 5G is around for a while, the reader base will be almost all new readers that come in with 5G. A large portion of the prior readers will be focusing on either preNew52 or New52 to 5G, with the exception of any special Elseworld type stories that use the familiar characters.

    In the light of this theory, DC would do better to keep the other eras as imprints to give the current readers somewhere to go to avoid losing them to other publishers.
    Again, if the idea is that they're going to do a Golden Age crime-busing Superman book, a Silver Age space-adventure Superman book, and other eras of the character published simultaneously, then sign me up for that and they can do a Jon Kent Superman title set in the present or future. As long as they continue to publish a Superman title with Clark Kent and all his history in that role, I can definitely get on board with this 5G initiative.

    I don't see how they can pull that off, however, without it diminishing Jon's role as Superman or diminishing the other replacement characters' roles.
    Last edited by kingaliencracker; 10-09-2019 at 01:01 PM.

  2. #212
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I'm just thinking of more in terms of what 5G will likely mean for the present-day continuity of the main heroes. Although does each generation get it's own editorial office now?
    Assuming the theory that this is going to be a bunch of imprints with separate continuities (same timeline, different histories) then DC would be insanely stupid not to build their editorial groups around it. Can you imagine the headache an editor would have, trying to deal with books from different generations? Handling one or two books with a different continuity shouldn't be a huge problem but this would be something altogether different.

    As for 5G, that might be the "near future we'll visit but never actually live in." In that case it'd have about as much impact on the other generations as Batman Beyond has right now. Odds are we'd see stuff in G4 like Jon Kent as a teenager, or Bruce having the Beyond suit in a closet because he hasn't worked out the kinks (Snyder did this already) but for the most part I think the only impact 5G would have on previous generations would be a little foreshadowing.

    It just seems like it could be a mess if not organized well.
    I think it might be a mess even if it is organized well. But if DC can't organize this better than they did the New52 or Rebirth (and I thought that was decently organized, generally) it'll be a mess no matter what.

    The idea of turning the main line into imprints might work (who knows?), but it's going to take a level of business organization and attention to detail that we haven't seen out of DC in decades.

    I don't know if you can turn your whole line into a series of imprints. There's going to need to be a baseline, main, ongoing continuity in my opinion.
    I think conventional wisdom would agree with you. But I do think there's an avenue here where, at least on a conceptual level, it could work. But I very much question DC's ability to do it successfully.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    And that has proven time and again to be in vain. It's a non-factor. Usually the characters becoming popular in the comics is what tends to lead to media adaptations. If Miles, Kamala or Jane Thor were not successful in the comics, they would not have found their way to animation or live action. And the casuals who are now aware of these characters still won't support their comics, just look at Black Panther. The people who support those characters are still the fans who were originally attracted to them in the comics, not people who saw them in a cartoon or video game somewhere.
    Generally true, though it's not like the Suicide Squad, Ant-Man, or Guardians of the Galaxy were big, popular IP's in print. You're 100000% right about larger media having no real impact on the direct market though. I'm not sure why anyone still thinks there's a correlation there.

    But *if* we're looking at the main line being turned into different imprints, you've gotta assume DC is, once again, trying to reach beyond the established fanbase. The reason this always fails is the direct market. Casual fans who go to the movies or watch the CW shows aren't going to hunt down a LCS, and the few who do try comics (usually through digital I suspect) usually find a community that's not welcoming to new customers and a product that's got a really steep learning curve and mountains of weird history creators always call back to. Not to mention its a super expensive hobby now. If DC can use the different tones of the generations to break into new demographics via different formats though? If one or two of the generations catches on with digital or Scholastic readers or whatever, in the same way characters like Moon Girl and Ms. Marvel have? Didio might finally find those new fans he's been looking for.

    I wouldn't put money on it, but stranger things have happened.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  3. #213
    Astonishing Member vasir12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    Just because you aren’t a founder doesn’t mean you can’t be an established an experienced hero with something to offer. If He started with the NTT, he’s still been active for way longer than Luke or Jon (well maybe not with timely wimpy stuff)
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    Why does he need to be a founding member to play a mentor role. He is just a more experienced character than any JL member that came after him. He could have plenty to teach since unlike the new characters, he's no longer playing the role of "the kid" regardless if he is or isn't a founding member.
    You've both made fair points. I've changed my opinion.

    Still, gauging what readers will drop can be difficult. The stories can be good and the ideas can be fresh and a book still might not see sales. Either way all the reports are saying Warner isn't too worried about comic sales as long as the IPs can bush media and merchandising.

    For me it can go either or. It can fall flat in its face and they revert or they'll keep pushing through and people will read it. I still believe comic sales as a whole will continue to fall unless the way comics are sold changes. Maybe with a new initiative, they'll do that too. Or not.

    To the point of the thread, I think the actual replacements for some have yet to debut.

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    Casuals don't give a rat's ass about the comics regardless of what DC is doing in outside media. If they did, Aquaman would've been a best-selling book. They even gave the character a beard, long hair and tattoos and it's completely irrelevant in terms of bringing more interest from the casual audience.
    If you only focus on floppies-yeah you will NEVER see a growth. Because no one is going to HUNT for a comic book store when you can go to Barnes & Nobles, Movie Trading Post, Half Price books, Wal-Mart, Target and other places to get the TRADES.

    It is those trades that help so many. Look at Ms Marvel & Moon Girl. Ms Marvel was suppose to be a 6 issue series that Marvel EXPECTED to fail. Even G Willow Wilson thought that and didn't bother with a second storyline. Trade sales took a 6 issue series to a now 50+ series run.

    Moon Girl. Folks I know who do NOT read comics-buy that book to read with their kids. She has popped out 8 trades and this is BEFORE a single episode of her show has been made. Only ONE other black female lead book can boast more trades-Princeless by the guy writing Wasp. A pitch that was originally starring Bumblebee.

    Aquaman-I would AX his book and do OGN. That is where his fans are. They buy trades. A LOT of these guys need to be OGN only books.


    But if they're doing this to attract new readers then they have to care about casual readers, which means the outside media needs to match what they're doing in the comics.
    When Justice League cartoon started John Stewart was in a wheelchair and powerless. Hawkgirl/woman was not around.
    When Young Justice started (especially season 3 to now) the majority of that roster was NOT active in comics.
    When Static Shock was on the air and Static was on Young Justice-only ONE time was he in comics and tv.
    Doom Patrol features Cyborg on tv. Doom Patrol has a black boy named Lucious.
    Supergirl had a black BUFF Jim Olsen. Not her black boy friend-Ben, who is in the comic.
    DC Super Hero Girls has Bumblebee. You couldn't make a 100 page book with all her appearances in her 48 year existence.

    Now Marvel did what you talked about. At least until Thor 2, Cap America Winter Solider, Black Panther & Infinity War. Normally whoever was the star MATCHED the comic and movie.
    Jane Foster was Thor when Thor 2 came out.
    Shuri was DEAD when Black Panther came out. Also in comics she was older, former Black Panther and Black Panther's STEP sister.
    Falcon was NEVER in the military in 616 Marvel. Ultimate Falcon was.
    Iron Man was Dr Doom when Infinity War came out. Amadeus Cho was Hulk. Flint of the Inhumans was NOT from the future.

    Dc's issue is this-who get used in the cartoons, tv shows and other stuff does NOT reflect who gets used in comics. When you look beyond Batman and his friends.

    Someone watching Black Lightning and LOVES his daughters-is going to be DISAPPOINTED to learn NOTHING has been done with them in 10 years.
    There is a reason folks PRAISE the tv versions of Cyborg & John Stewart.

    One of the issues of tossing new folks into these roles is a LACK of previous material.
    Sam Wilson as Cap America works way more than Luke Fox as Batman.
    I got TONS of material with Sam as Falcon in his own books, Avengers, Cap America and so on. Before CA Winter Solider-Marvel did that with a Falcon trade.
    Luke Fox-3 Batwing volumes and WHAT ELSE? You have nothing to balance stuff out. So he will be looked as a GIMMICK.

    DC has a bunch of folks on those shows who COULD get you new blood way faster than switching out folks. Yet someone has to use them.

  5. #215

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    You know... If they are going to replace Bruce for Luke, who's going to be his Robin? Because I'm pretty sure it's not going to be Damian. Which brings to the table that Luke and Jon Kent don't have any history, at all, which makes the partnership between Batman and Superman useless.
    Either Tamara or Tiffany (his sisters). Plus you do have the we are robin kids.

  6. #216
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    Either Tamara or Tiffany (his sisters). Plus you do have the we are robin kids.
    You really think Damian would give up his mantle, or share it, with any of them? Because I don't, not without a lot of character development (that it's usually stolen from him) or a big story that would make him leave it (and take onto a new one).

  7. #217
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    Either Tamara or Tiffany (his sisters). Plus you do have the we are robin kids.
    Aren't Tamara and Tiffany both adults, even in N52?

    You really think Damian would give up his mantle, or share it, with any of them?
    Like it matters if he wants to share - Batman can just take Robin away - both Bruce and Dick have done so. I didn't like that they did, but they did.

  8. #218
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Aren't Tamara and Tiffany both adults, even in N52?

    Like it matters if he wants to share - Batman can just take Robin away - both Bruce and Dick have done so. I didn't like that they did, but they did.
    Ah, I see your point. Ha ha, yeah, that could happen. Following the traditions.

  9. #219
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vasir12 View Post
    Also, I think that it Aquaman's child would be both too obvious, done before with Superman, and WAY too young. I would say the same for any other child. I think they're going with Jon because who else could replace Superman but a half human/half Kryptonian son?
    Mon-El? Steel? Conner Kent? Eradicator?

    Maybe Supergirl...?
    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    Just because you aren’t a founder doesn’t mean you can’t be an established an experienced hero with something to offer. If He started with the NTT, he’s still been active for way longer than Luke or Jon (well maybe not with timely wimpy stuff)
    Could we finally be getting Cyborg's Teen Titans history back?
    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    Aquaman= Kaldur
    Flash=should be Wally
    Wonder Woman= should be Donna, but I suspect she's getting shafted and I don't see Cassie getting the mantle. No idea who they'd give it to.
    MM= should be M'gann. I feel like the kid is going to sacrifice himself to save the JL somehow.
    These are too obvious mantle changes.

    Although this just made me think...is DC no longer going to push Barry as the one-true be-all end-all of The Flashes?
    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    I will say that if DC is going all-in with this, then they need Warner-Media 100% on board. That means animated shows, TV shows, movies, toys, and other merchandise need to reflect the 5G characters. Otherwise it'll be doomed to fail before it even begins. If DC has Jon Kent as Superman but Warner-Media is still using the Clark Kent version, casual fans won't even give 5G a chance, let alone the old guard.
    I doubt they'll go that far.

    Wonder Woman hasn't even gotten her own cartoon series yet, and we're pushing a new version? Ditto with Aquaman.

    Even when the replacements were happening all the time at Marvel, the cartoons and video games pretty much always used the main versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    The Arrowverse is quick to adapt, isn't it? They already used Godspeed, who's a Rebirth era character, and Silencer, who's from the more recent New Age of DC Heroes.
    Not that they ended up doing much with them...

  10. #220
    Astonishing Member kingaliencracker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I doubt they'll go that far.

    Wonder Woman hasn't even gotten her own cartoon series yet, and we're pushing a new version? Ditto with Aquaman.

    Even when the replacements were happening all the time at Marvel, the cartoons and video games pretty much always used the main versions.
    I have no belief that they'll go that far either just based on how Marvel handled it a few years ago. So again, this just has no chance to succeed because they won't be able to get an outside audience, and while I imagine there will be a big sales bump initially, it'll taper off pretty quick, just like New 52 did.

    Man, that Rebirth special feels like a fleeting memory at this point...
    Last edited by kingaliencracker; 10-09-2019 at 04:52 PM.

  11. #221

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    You really think Damian would give up his mantle, or share it, with any of them? Because I don't, not without a lot of character development (that it's usually stolen from him) or a big story that would make him leave it (and take onto a new one).
    I didn't think that far ahead but who knows even if he is still Robin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Aren't Tamara and Tiffany both adults, even in N52?

    Like it matters if he wants to share - Batman can just take Robin away - both Bruce and Dick have done so. I didn't like that they did, but they did.
    I think one of them was a teenager in his Batwing issues while the other was 10 years old.

    Does their age matter tho? they could be older robins.

  12. #222
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Aren't Tamara and Tiffany both adults, even in N52?

    Like it matters if he wants to share - Batman can just take Robin away - both Bruce and Dick have done so. I didn't like that they did, but they did.
    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    I didn't think that far ahead but who knows even if he is still Robin?



    I think one of them was a teenager in his Batwing issues while the other was 10 years old.

    Does their age matter tho? they could be older robins.
    Tamara's the teenager.

    Tiffany got older in Gail Simone's five years later story and became one of the Batgirl alongside Steph and Cass

    Tiffany's an adult in Telltale Batman set in Bruce's early year as Batman

  13. #223
    Mighty Member My Two Cents's Avatar
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    Comics are comics
    There will be a few winners and
    Losers that will fade away ��

  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    I’m going to begin using the ones that seem likely based on present rumors, and then fill in the blanks

    • Superman: Jon Kent
    • Wonder Woman: Atlantiades
    • Batman: Luke Fox
    • Aquaman: Jackson Hyde / Kaldur’ahm
    • Green Lantern: Carol Ferris
    • Flash: Avery Ho
    Wow horrible...

    I really like the Titans of Tomorrow Line-Up:

    Superman: Conner
    Flash: Bart
    Batman: Dick/Tim
    Green Lantern: Teen Lantern
    Wonder Woman: Cassie

  15. #225
    Ultimate Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    Wow horrible...

    I really like the Titans of Tomorrow Line-Up:

    Superman: Conner
    Flash: Bart
    Batman: Dick/Tim
    Green Lantern: Teen Lantern
    Wonder Woman: Cassie
    Nah.

    Batman: Jason
    Flash: The Chinese girl
    Superman: Outlaws Biz
    Wonder Woman: Artemis
    Green Lantern: Kyle Rayner

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