DC 5G: the Replacements

[Midnight_v]

Invincible was an amazing book and a new property.

Funny thing, the most recognizable hero made in the last 10 years or so is Saitama annnd Genos really. . . and it was a new property.

The Sentry Blonde-haired fire-eyed nightmare essentially failed after a while. . .


That's why I think it the idea that "Replacement is the best way" is pretty much shenanigans

I just think "Making something New... is hard" / "Making a new Poc is nearly impossible..." might actually exist but the first one is true and the other is an excuse because the first is true.
I could do it. Lord if I had time... smh.

EDIT: You know what sure. My argument was never "Make New characters" when I really think about it. It was "Use existing characters" and along those lines "Use them as MORE than wall paper".

Now personally I happen to dislike spider man "style" characters. On some level I feel a deep loathing for generic lovable loser everyman gets powers and goes on adventures. I like some iconic tale of man vs... Its Vastly popular though so theres a chance that's where you should start.

[Holt]

Yes, but like I already said I understand that, because I also wasnt a fan of them.

Like I said the last non legacy characters who I really liked were Static,Traci13,Empress,some members of the Ravers/Blood Pack.
AND some Wildstorm Characters like Voodoo,Fairchild etc.

Monster Boy could be an interesting character...

Like I said it would be easy to establish new heroes if they have powers which are unusual,a look which is unique, cool atitude and are already on the level of JL.

The problem is that is subjective. You say it's because every one of those characters had a bad look or uninteresting power, but there are others who might disagree. There's no simple formula. If there were a simple formula for creating a new character, there'd be a much higher success rate.

[HunterX]

Well if your theory is true it’s pretty tragic as there will never be a black, Hispanic, Asian, etc. successful original character again. John Stewart is one of DC’s most well know superheroes who is a POC but there will always be an argument over who should be the main GL. John is probably the second most popular GL at the moment. Same with Miles Morales. He’s very popular but he’ll never be anywhere close to Peter Parker. So are we just fighting for runner up?!?

Well they got Cyborg, he is neither sharing a mantle nor taking it from anyone. Whats stopping DC from doing right by him. He should still have been in the Justice League but they chose to please some racist fans instead.

[Dr. Ellingham]

Well they got Cyborg, he is neither sharing a mantle nor taking it from anyone. Whats stopping DC from doing right by him. He should still have been in the Justice League but they chose to please some racist fans instead.

It's a good question.

But an underlying assumption in this discussion is that DC / ATT wants to drastically change their characters around. From the outside, I don't think that's what they are about - aside from short-term stunts like the abandoned 5G thing.

They're about protecting, and building on their existing brands. And where possible, figuring out a way to milk the b-level properties they own 100%, like Doom Patrol, or Swamp Thing. Which is how those IPs got TV shows.

But DC's core identity is their top brands - Superman, Batman, Justice League, Teen Titans, Flash, etc. As long as those IPs are making money, that's where DC will focus most of their energies. They're a business, after all - this is about money.

[Holt]

Cyborg is unfortunate because they gave him this big promotion to being a founding JL member and then proceeded to do nothing with him. It's ironic because at the time they kept insisting he wasn't there due to tokenism and yet that's all he's come off as the entire 9 years since the New 52. The only writers who actually did interesting things with him were David Walker and Christopher Priest.

[DragonPiece]

Cyborg is unfortunate because they gave him this big promotion to being a founding JL member and then proceeded to do nothing with him. It's ironic because at the time they kept insisting he wasn't there due to tokenism and yet that's all he's come off as the entire 9 years since the New 52. The only writers who actually did interesting things with him were David Walker and Christopher Priest.

How is he unfortunate? He appeared in several of the best selling comics in the past decade like new 52 justice league, metal, forever evil, etc. He had a cameo in batman v superman, had a big role in justice league (and will appear again in the snyder cut.) He had a main role in Doom Patrol and still has his appeal from the teen titans cartoons.


He has gotten a lot of love in media, people keep saying he's not succesfull but why? Is it because he never had a beloved comic run? That hardly seems like a measure of success.

[Vampire Savior]

He has gotten a lot of love in media, people keep saying he's not succesfull but why? Is it because he never had a beloved comic run? That hardly seems like a measure of success.

I think the plan was for Cyborg to become his own solo IP, hence two comic series and a planned solo film. DC has given up on that because of what appears to be a couple reasons.

First, no one was interested enough in the character to really justify promoting him like that. Second, creators didn't have good enough ideas to turn that around. And third, the DCEU wound up being somewhat of a disaster, so his pie in the sky film was never going to happen. Thus, Cyborg is back to being just a team guy, and he currently doesn't have much of a place in the DC Comics universe.

[Restingvoice]

How is he unfortunate? He appeared in several of the best selling comics in the past decade like new 52 justice league, metal, forever evil, etc. He had a cameo in batman v superman, had a big role in justice league (and will appear again in the snyder cut.) He had a main role in Doom Patrol and still has his appeal from the teen titans cartoons.


He has gotten a lot of love in media, people keep saying he's not successful but why? Is it because he never had a beloved comic run? That hardly seems like a measure of success.

The unfortunate thing, as Holt posted, is his usage. Yes, he's in the very popular Justice League, but he was, for a long time, the only one who didn't have his own series. Then when he does, sales are low.

Also, the thing about being successful in a team run is... is it because of the character himself, or is it because of the team interaction? Which part of the team that's actually popular? Especially since the team includes higher hitters like Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, and Nightwing. Which character people actually look forward to reading when they pick up a team book?

I know he's popular in the TT cartoon though, since people do actually talk a lot about him. Not sure in the comic if his book sales are any indication.

[Digifiend]

Yeah, Cyborg is a Leaguer for the wrong reason. They removed his history at the same time, and his new origin happened in the first New 52 JL arc, so his place on the team wasn't earned. Also, it's true, he was the only black guy, so it's tokenism. They should've had other diverse people on the team and not just the main six and him. For example, Vixen (who was on the secondary team instead), who would also remove Wonder Woman's tokenism, as she wouldn't be the only girl (something both Rebirth and Snyder's run got right by having Jessica Cruz and Hawkgirl respectively). And maybe John Stewart instead of Hal Jordan (like Snyder's recent run would do). It was a mistake to wipe out his Titans backstory, and it was a mistake to have him as the only non-Caucasian person on the team.

[Ascended]

I think the plan was for Cyborg to become his own solo IP, hence two comic series and a planned solo film. DC has given up on that because of what appears to be a couple reasons.

First, no one was interested enough in the character to really justify promoting him like that. Second, creators didn't have good enough ideas to turn that around. And third, the DCEU wound up being somewhat of a disaster, so his pie in the sky film was never going to happen. Thus, Cyborg is back to being just a team guy, and he currently doesn't have much of a place in the DC Comics universe.

I think DC expected Vic to become an A-lister simply on the virtue of being in the League. Which obviously doesn't work; the League doesn't create A-listers, it's the place where the A-listers hang out. The fact that they'd have to actually put some work in and develop him as a solo IP seems to have caught them completely by surprise.

It doesn't help at all that it took years for Vic to get a solo book, even after the 52 launched. Hard for Vic to look like an A-lister when he's the only Leaguer without a solo title. And creators had good ideas for him, but DC wouldn't let them pull the trigger, or undid the development as soon as the writer left. At the time DC was talking about keeping characters in their "most iconic" shapes, which for Vic means his old NTT era "man or machine" angst.....and nobody wants to read about that. Vic's character arc got beyond that crap a long time ago.

Vic's done well in larger media, the comics just need to pull some of that onto the page. Why this keeps escaping them is beyond me.

[Shamrock Holmes]

Yeah, Cyborg is a Leaguer for the wrong reason. They removed his history at the same time, and his new origin happened in the first New 52 JL arc, so his place on the team wasn't earned. Also, it's true, he was the only black guy, so it's tokenism. They should've had other diverse people on the team and not just the main six and him. For example, Vixen (who was on the secondary team instead), who would also remove Wonder Woman's tokenism, as she wouldn't be the only girl (something both Rebirth and Snyder's run got right by having Jessica Cruz and Hawkgirl respectively). And maybe John Stewart instead of Hal Jordan (like Snyder's recent run would do). It was a mistake to wipe out his Titans backstory, and it was a mistake to have him as the only non-Caucasian person on the team.

Pretty much the argument that I've been making about how they handled Vic's addition to the Justice League for years.

[Holt]

It doesn't help at all that it took years for Vic to get a solo book, even after the 52 launched. Hard for Vic to look like an A-lister when he's the only Leaguer without a solo title..

I've posted this a couple of times but it still really sums up the problems with Cyborg's promotion quite well.

[skyvolt2000]

How is he unfortunate? He appeared in several of the best selling comics in the past decade like new 52 justice league, metal, forever evil, etc. He had a cameo in batman v superman, had a big role in justice league (and will appear again in the snyder cut.) He had a main role in Doom Patrol and still has his appeal from the teen titans cartoons.


He has gotten a lot of love in media, people keep saying he's not succesfull but why? Is it because he never had a beloved comic run? That hardly seems like a measure of success.

Yes he was in best selling comics and some events. There is no debate to that. yet Cyborg suffered the fate MESS Storm over in the X-Men has dealt with for now 20+ years.

If you don't provide SUBSTANCE to those appearances they mean nothing and are viewed as tokenism.

See it take more than being in top rated or selling to impress me and a lot of folks. We pay attention to WHAT you do on those projects. Being Batman's internet, bus, crying about Daddy or being the lonely nonsocial loser doesn't cut it.

What did he contribute memorable in those stories? Where is the Justice League arc where HE is taking charge or it's about HIM?
Prodigy got that story in New X-men Academy. Flint got it in All New Inhumans. Falcon got is in Avengers. Miles got it in Champions. Synch got in Generation X.
Where was his guest spots in books like Falcon and others got over the years?

The reason folks PRAISE Doom Patrol and tv shows is because Cyborg does not take a backseat to others. He is treated like an EQUAL. Icon status does not control those shows. Because those writers understand they have to sell everybody. Because they know folks are paying attention and all it takes is ONE person to start asking about the treatment of POC.

New 52 did NOT do that with Cyborg. At WORST your TOP WRITERS did little to nothing with him.
David Walker couldn't do anything with him. His resume say he should have KILLED it.
John Semper Jr couldn't do anything with him. A man who resume includes Peter Parker, Static, Scooby Doo and so many children of the 80s-90s shows.


To piggy back on what Holt posted-

Merchandise-you known how much New 52 Justice League stuff left him OUT? Excluding the live action movie-I would have thought new 52 Justice League was 4 white males with WW and Aquaman showing up sometimes.

I saw New 52 Justice League merchandise showcase Green Arrow, Supergirl, Black Carney, Batgirl and Catwoman. Heck I even saw some with John Stewart.

Including New 52 Justice League valentines....while the ones that came with the DC comic had Cyborg. The ones at Wal-mart did NOT.

https://moongemcomics.blogspot.com/2...-card-kit.html

The back shows that the kit has six different cards that includes Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Superman, Justice League coming at you and a Justice League teacher card. Poor Flash does not get his own card and Wonder Woman does not appear on any of the Justice League cards.

It took 9 years after New 52 for Cyborg to be included in a set this YEAR.

https://moongemcomics.blogspot.com/2...020-day-3.html

What does his say part man part robot all friend.

https://www.birthdaydirect.com/justi...invitations-8/

http://dragonandrose.net/stree/wp-co...yparty_007.jpg

Do a google for Justice League party stuff. It's nothing but 4 white guys. All in New 52 attire.

Justice league comics that were in cereals? Cyborg is on ONE cover.

Non movie Justice League toy cars.

1 Non movie Cyborg shirt on DC's website. NOT IN STORES.

Where is Cyborg???? Not Teen Titans Cyborg. JUSTICE LEAGUE CYBORG.

[Vordan]

I've posted this a couple of times but it still really sums up the problems with Cyborg's promotion quite well.

Brutal showcase. I wish Johns had picked a character he actually cared about, because he barely gave Cyborg crap.

[Frontier]

Brutal showcase. I wish Johns had picked a character he actually cared about, because he barely gave Cyborg crap.

The funny thing is I think Johns picked Cyborg because he actually did like him as a character (Johns used him prominently in his Flash and Titans runs and I think has gone on record about his love for the Galactic Guardians cartoon), and I mean he got spotlight moments in like 3-4 of Johns' major JL arcs, but he didn't implement him well as a founding main member of the League.