DC 5G: the Replacements

[SiegePerilous02]

I mean it also didn't help that the titles in the "new age of heroes" were so creatively bankrupt there was no way they would take hold. Even if someone of the storylines could be considered okay by some.

DC's recent attempts at inclusion are hindered by lack of creativity and the fact that the market rarely supports anything new. It's a safer bet to just use the old guard even if that means the top heroes in the DC world can only ever be white and are, more often than not, male.

Some thought this 5G thing could change that a little, if only temporary. Even this, though, wasn't very creative.

Yeah, that didn't help.

Like I said good basic concept, not so great execution. At the very least they could have seen to it that more of these books would have had creative teams in it for the long haul.

[Robotman]

5G was an opportunity for DC to promote a far more diverse line-up, and everyone knew it. Announcing that, nope, it'll rmeain the same characters, with the same story beats, same foes and general sameness in everything. I mean, what do you think will happen for great new characters now. 5G could have allowed Noami to rise higher for instance. Now, she'll forever remains very much an unimportant player on the DC roster because the editors will refuses to push her forward, clearly.

Meacing that, once more, DC caves in to demands for more Nostalgia and will let Marvel - and possibly other publishers - the spot for new, more in tune with the current world, characters.

Yeah let’s not pretend that 5G was some noble plan to make a more diverse DCU. It was a stunt to generate shock value and was a pretty big rip off of Marvel’s All New All Different launch. Correct me if I’m wrong but that didn’t work out so well for Marvel. 5G was Didio’s “New Coke” idea. Replace a beloved product with an “all new!” yet inferior product so that when the old version is restored the fans will rejoice and appreciate the classic even more.

I really like Luke Fox as a character and think he has a lot of potential but there was no way in hell a Batman title starring him would sell long term. It would get a lot of mainstream coverage but would quickly burn out. Besides that, the only real diversity of 5G may have been Naomi as an adult. If they made Sojourner the new main GL, they would still be sidelining John and Jessica. So that would just be a push in the diversity category.

Personally, it frustrates me that DC keeps ignoring their current diverse lineup of characters and creating new ones who are quickly forgotten. I sound like a broken record but Vixen, Blue Beetle, Bumble Bee, Vibe, Bronze Tiger, Steel, El Diablo, Grace Choi, Dr. Light, etc are gathering dust.

[Sacred Knight]

While I agree with Robotman, it was far more just their usual every-fifth-year-or-so gimmick plan, even if it was a noble idea for diversity, it would still have been incredibly flawed. There's such a thing as bad ways to promote diversity. I almost get the feeling its a no-no to express that just because it can be misinterpreted as diversity itself being a bad thing, but that's not it. Its just a fact that there are good ways and bad ways to implement ideas, that's all. And in this instance, outright replacing your beloved characters with new ones in the name of diversity is a bad way to go about it. It robs people of the characters they love, and put the new characters immediately behind the 8 ball, as not only are talent trying to get these characters over in their own right, they have to do it in the shadow of over the fact that these characters are the reasons their beloved ones are gone. It gets them off immediately on the wrong foot before a single issue is published. Its just lose-lose.

In regards to diverse characters, what the hell is going on with Earth M anyway for the Milestone IPs? Is that being held up because of McDuffie's wife suing?

[Flash Gordon]

Yeah, there was no way in hell that DC would just run something as dumb as what 5G sounded like.

Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Batman- these characters are huge now. It's time to build on what works. Let creators tell their stories on their titles, stop trying to force huge changes.

[Masterff]

Yeah, there was no way in hell that DC would just run something as dumb as what 5G sounded like.

Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Batman- these characters are huge now. It's time to build on what works. Let creators tell their stories on their titles, stop trying to force huge changes.

Actually I would have LOVED to see changes, since the original characters are around for so long time and I feel that they went trough every possible storyline etc.

This is actually one of the reasons why Mangas/Animes are more sucessfull than Comics...

5G if done right would have been finally the possibility for changes..and new faces..

5G was an opportunity for DC to promote a far more diverse line-up, and everyone knew it. Announcing that, nope, it'll rmeain the same characters, with the same story beats, same foes and general sameness in everything. I mean, what do you think will happen for great new characters now. 5G could have allowed Noami to rise higher for instance. Now, she'll forever remains very much an unimportant player on the DC roster because the editors will refuses to push her forward, clearly.

Meacing that, once more, DC caves in to demands for more Nostalgia and will let Marvel - and possibly other publishers - the spot for new, more in tune with the current world, characters.

[Korath]

Thats like saying i dont like what universal pictures put out so im not watching anymore films or i dont like what EMI are putting out so i just wont listen to music any more.

For the life of me i cant understand why, if people think company x is putting out crap, they dont just read something from the zillion other publishers out there and support things that appeal to them

Because I'm invested in DC characters btu don't really like the comic format. I can dabble in other publishers, but most comics, even independent, I've stumbled upon haven't won me over, like manga or B.D. can.

[Korath]

Yeah let’s not pretend that 5G was some noble plan to make a more diverse DCU. It was a stunt to generate shock value and was a pretty big rip off of Marvel’s All New All Different launch. Correct me if I’m wrong but that didn’t work out so well for Marvel. 5G was Didio’s “New Coke” idea. Replace a beloved product with an “all new!” yet inferior product so that when the old version is restored the fans will rejoice and appreciate the classic even more.

I really like Luke Fox as a character and think he has a lot of potential but there was no way in hell a Batman title starring him would sell long term. It would get a lot of mainstream coverage but would quickly burn out. Besides that, the only real diversity of 5G may have been Naomi as an adult. If they made Sojourner the new main GL, they would still be sidelining John and Jessica. So that would just be a push in the diversity category.

Personally, it frustrates me that DC keeps ignoring their current diverse lineup of characters and creating new ones who are quickly forgotten. I sound like a broken record but Vixen, Blue Beetle, Bumble Bee, Vibe, Bronze Tiger, Steel, El Diablo, Grace Choi, Dr. Light, etc are gathering dust.

That's because beyond lip service, nobody gives a fuck about those characters. They already failed to take root and expand and have that failure as a baggage now.

And DC knows that the fandom won't support them. I still remember when the NAoH was announced and 80% of the people on thos forum considered it dead on arrival and refused to buy the books because "in a year they'll all eb cancelled". And guess whathappened ? In a year, they were all cancelled, except the one with old characters whichg wasn't really a New Age of Heroes, but just a normal new series with old characters.

You can't be clamoring for old characters who failed to be supported to make a comeback piecemeal. They need to be changed to have a chance, but if you change them, people - not even their fans, everyone will take a chance at it - will be screaming bloody murder.

While I agree with Robotman, it was far more just their usual every-fifth-year-or-so gimmick plan, even if it was a noble idea for diversity, it would still have been incredibly flawed. There's such a thing as bad ways to promote diversity. I almost get the feeling its a no-no to express that just because it can be misinterpreted as diversity itself being a bad thing, but that's not it. Its just a fact that there are good ways and bad ways to implement ideas, that's all. And in this instance, outright replacing your beloved characters with new ones in the name of diversity is a bad way to go about it. It robs people of the characters they love, and put the new characters immediately behind the 8 ball, as not only are talent trying to get these characters over in their own right, they have to do it in the shadow of over the fact that these characters are the reasons their beloved ones are gone. It gets them off immediately on the wrong foot before a single issue is published. Its just lose-lose.

In regards to diverse characters, what the hell is going on with Earth M anyway for the Milestone IPs? Is that being held up because of McDuffie's wife suing?

And what is this mystical "right way to promote diversity" ? In place as crowded as comics, it is proven that replacement of iconic characters is the sole way for it to work. Jane Foster is Valkyrie today because she was Thor. Flacon sold a lot more when he was Captain America because he was out there and people loved it and demoting him cost him sales. Kamala Khan wouldn't have lasted as long as she did if she was called Bendable-girl insted of Miss Marvel.

[Robotman]

Folks consider it toxic because rage seems to get out of control when it involves POC, women or LGBTQ.

Folks are not putting their foot down screaming Batman is BRUCE WAYNE and that is the way it is. Screw Luke Fox to further pits of heck. Meanwhile Dick Grayson, James Gordon, Jean Paul and Terry McGuiness are dusting off their suits.


Now what is funny-you had set an OSCAR WINNING WRITER to INVEST in Luke Fox. Not come fake woke guy like we see with Black Panther (until July). Yet DC only wants to do that if Luke is Batman not Batwing.

Does that honestly make sense to ANYBODY? You got a NAME in the industry (albeit Hollywood) on one of your books. An OSCAR WINNER. Luke does NOT need to be Batman. He can be himself.

And how funny would it be if say by July-we hear of John Ridley's newest comic project-BLACK PANTHER.

I can accept Batman being Bruce but there is no excuse to NOT invest in all the other folks sitting around collecting dust because of nostalgia.

I really like that idea. They have an Oscar winning writer and a character with pretty much a blank slate. Let him make Batwing his own and really flesh out Luke’s world. Give him a big name artist and they could have another break out character.

[Korath]

I really like that idea. They have an Oscar winning writer and a character with pretty much a blank slate. Let him make Batwing his own and really flesh out Luke’s world. Give him a big name artist and they could have another break out character.

Except they wouldn't because even with such a combination, a lot of people would vocally says that the book would crash and burn in a year and, lo and behold, that's what would happen.

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

Except they wouldn't because even with such a combination, a lot of people would vocally says that the book would crash and burn in a year and, lo and behold, that's what would happen.

I’m pretty skeptical that Luke starring as the lead in Batman and Detective Comics would be able to last much longer than that. But you are right, we readers can’t blame dc for not pushing diverse characters if we haven’t always supported those titles.

[Vampire Savior]

IÂ’m pretty skeptical that Luke starring as the lead in Batman and Detective Comics would be able to last much longer than that. But you are right, we readers canÂ’t blame dc for not pushing diverse characters if we havenÂ’t always supported those titles.

We can, however, blame DC for making mediocre to poor titles starring diverse characters, and not putting out very strong creative concepts for diverse characters. New Age of Heroes didn't jump out at me, because...well, nothing jumped out at me, just like it wouldn't have if all the characters had been white. I did not see anything that made me think, "WOW! That looks captivating to me. I think I might like that." I believe that is a failing not on diverse characters, but with people coming up with bland ideas that weren't likely to really go anywhere. It looked to me like it came from people who weren't especially creative or imaginative, or people who weren't trying too hard in those instances.

Somewhat recently someone asked me if I dislike all the black characters, and I didn't indulge such a loaded question because I sensed the individual was attempting to draw me into a confrontation they'd likely been wanting to get me in for some time. But I will answer that now. No, I don't especially care for them. Not because they are black characters, but because there isn't a whole heck of a lot to like as I see it, and I guess that's a shame. The only one that even slightly has his own mythology is Black Lightning, and I'm sorry, I'm just not going to get into a stereotypical character like that. Him and his world do not appeal to me, though, I guess that is partially a taste thing.

So, to make a long story short, if DC wants to organically get original diverse characters off the ground, the publisher is going to have to try probably about 15 times harder than what it has done so far. The solution is nothing arcane. They would need to create spectacular stories with the best artwork on a consistent basis. The characters would need to be likable and have incredible designs and really creative mythologies. Preferably, at least for my tastes, they would not be stereotypes or race or ethnic based.

Take that package and market it to the right people and then it would probably work. And yes, I would be into their diverse characters. However, the company does not tend to do or achieve that...so here we are.

[Sodam Yat]

We can, however, blame DC for making mediocre to poor titles starring diverse characters, and not putting out very strong creative concepts for diverse characters. New Age of Heroes didn't jump out at me, because...well, nothing jumped out at me, just like it wouldn't have if all the characters had been white. I did not see anything that made me think, "WOW! That looks captivating to me. I think I might like that." I believe that is a failing not on diverse characters, but with people coming up with bland ideas that weren't likely to really go anywhere. It looked to me like it came from people who weren't especially creative or imaginative, or people who weren't trying too hard in those instances.

Somewhat recently someone asked me if I dislike all the black characters, and I didn't indulge such a loaded question because I sensed the individual was attempting to draw me into a confrontation they'd likely been wanting to get me in for some time. But I will answer that now. No, I don't especially care for them. Not because they are black characters, but because there isn't a whole heck of a lot to like as I see it, and I guess that's a shame. The only one that even slightly has his own mythology is Black Lightning, and I'm sorry, I'm just not going to get into a stereotypical character like that. Him and his world do not appeal to me, though, I guess that is partially a taste thing.

So, to make a long story short, if DC wants to organically get original diverse characters off the ground, the publisher is going to have to try probably about 15 times harder than what it has done so far. The solution is nothing arcane. They would need to create spectacular stories with the best artwork on a consistent basis. The characters would need to be likable and have incredible designs and really creative mythologies. Preferably, at least for my tastes, they would not be stereotypes or race or ethnic based.

Take that package and market it to the right people and then it would probably work. And yes, I would be into their diverse characters. However, the company does not tend to do or achieve that...so here we are.

Yea, I actually agree with this. I think the problems I see is that it seems like DC just doesn't have the passion to write good quality stories with black characters. No real effort. And that's just sad.

[Vampire Savior]

Yea, I actually agree with this. I think the problems I see is that it seems like DC just doesn't have the passion to write good quality stories with black characters. No real effort. And that's just sad.

It's probably a mixture of lack of effort and lack of ability at writing really captivating stories in general. I think really, really good stories at DC are pretty infrequent, regardless of the characters.

[jetengine]

Its not just poc, women, gender tho. I def remember Dan slott getting death threats for 'killing' spiderman and all the outrage over Captain America hail hydra thing, or bat cat marriage or heroes in crisis. Theres just a subset of readers of any book who will totally go overboard, and arguably a subset of editors / management who will push a character until its jumped the shark and is useless going forward.

I cant see problem with Batman gets old, someone else takes over cowl. Luke doing that makes perfect sense. That storyline could kickstart a new batwing book too.

People might complain thats its not going to be canon or its not going to last or whatever but that didnt stop Frank Millers old batman being one of the most iconic takes on the character.

You say "fans be crazy" without adding crucial context.

They make Cap a Nazi on his 75th anniversary and use the interview space to explicitly claim "No this isnt a one off thing, Cap has and always was a Nazi" is EXTRAORDINARILY bad PR. Especially at a time when Marvel was still pulling stupid stunts left, right and centre so its not unbelievable for fans to think it will stick in a same manner as Snap Wilson.

The Marriage was because both King and DC had hyped it up, winding the fanbase up only to be surprised when they exploded at not only having the rug pulled out from under them, but having it pulled out in a lame way ("Muh best friend said you cant be happy Bruce") and revealed in an even worse way (Putting it in a shitty newspaper article as if non comic fans actually give a shit). Theres also the greed aspect with DC milking fans for an event that never was .

Heroes in crisis was offensive trash that spat on fans, characters and the mentally ill. You know its bad when actual Psychologists are saying "This....is not how any of this works" which is a probkem when the core theme is "Lets talk about mental health in the superhero community"

[iron chimp]

Because I'm invested in DC characters btu don't really like the comic format. I can dabble in other publishers, but most comics, even independent, I've stumbled upon haven't won me over, like manga or B.D. can.

Ah that makes sense - comics for me includes manga, b.d etc.

Maybe try some older indie and DC books - not out of nostalgia - but because there was a whole lot of books published in 80s and early 90s that couldnt be on the shelves today - a lot of wild content and diverse story telling by a lot of talent who drifted away out of the comic shop once marvel image valiant etc took all the shelf space.

I agree shops are pretty weak today compared to what they were but there was a time when USA was producing a whole stream of original game changing comics