DC 5G: the Replacements

[iron chimp]

For the life of me i cant see what people have against the concept of comic shops.

An independent network of locally owned businesses forced into creation because of the comics code who over the last 50 years have broken probably 75% of Americas most original genre expanding creators, broke manga in usa, broke moebius and bande dessine in usa, broke the best the UK had to offer in the usa. Stocked everything from harcore gay porn, to 'wimmins comix', to self published comics, to drug and acid comics.

Its a set up the envy of most of the rest of the world.

People go on like its a gulag.

[SiegePerilous02]

Dc is that too. Dc isnt just a superhero universe.

It isn't, but you can't seriously claim it isn't mostly in the business of publishing superhero books.

It and Marvel are not made up the same way as Image for the most part.

[Vordan]

And to be frank, the landscape over at DC changed a lot over the past year, and while we were supportive of all the plans before the editorial and administrative change, we weren't really part of those plans. We were just kind of doing the story we had planned for three years and, if those stories didn't link up, we would at least be able to create something that we loved. And DC was supportive of us and we were supportive of DC. But now that the landscape has opened up on the other side, we're actually a really big part of helping build that architecture, we're very proud of what's coming in the future. So it's an end to one era and we're having a lot of fun setting up what's coming on the other side. I just recommitted to be part of DC post-Death Metal but in a different way; I want to be able to focus on projects that are less event-driven and -- as much as this one is different -- I want less, because I want to flex different muscles.

https://www.cbr.com/scott-snyder-dar...s-death-metal/
Yeah the plans have drastically changed. Sounds like Snyder is sticking around.

[iron chimp]

It isn't, but you can't seriously claim it isn't mostly in the business of publishing superhero books.

It and Marvel are not made up the same way as Image for the most part.

For sure mostly. But there will be wide subsets of readers for whom DC is Sgt Rock, or Warlord or Y and other things.

Obviously superman and batman have been core to the company but even today their top books are both in continuity events and out of continuity mini series like Frank Miller or White Knight. So the shared universe isnt the be all and end for them even today even if their big characters are fundamental.

They will have made more money out of 70 issues of preacher or sandman than the same 70 issues of most of their shared universe characters when you factor in the amount of times those series have been reprinted. A lot of this stuff has a long tail whereas a lot of the shared universe stuff doesnt.

I d be surprised if they werent confident that their hill house books are going to do well for them in trade and way out perform their lower tier shared universe books there. People can correct him but im not even sure they actually trade all their shared universe books any more.

So for me - they have the advantage that they have both a shared universe, self contained mini series of those characters for people who dont like all of that, and a heritage of successful and innovative works in other genres even if that area is a bit stop and start for them recently.

[The no face guy]

For the life of me i cant see what people have against the concept of comic shops.

An independent network of locally owned businesses forced into creation because of the comics code who over the last 50 years have broken probably 75% of Americas most original genre expanding creators, broke manga in usa, broke moebius and bande dessine in usa, broke the best the UK had to offer in the usa. Stocked everything from harcore gay porn, to 'wimmins comix', to self published comics, to drug and acid comics.

Its a set up the envy of most of the rest of the world.

People go on like its a gulag.

There is nothing wrong with comic shops per say, the problem begins when they begin to monopolize the distribution of comics to the point you can only find them at comic shops. When I was young, you could get print comics, at the corner store (AM/PM or 7 Eleven) the ferry or bus terminals, grocery and department stores would have a comic rack, and now you can seemingly only find the print at one centralized location, the comic shop. If it wasn't for the above outlets, I would have never been exposed to comics, and would have never bothered to enter a comic shop.

[superduperman]

5 G quietly cancelled, kind of embarassing

That's what it's looking like. Wonder when they'll make it official.

[Midnight_v]

It isn't, but you can't seriously claim it isn't mostly in the business of publishing superhero books.

It and Marvel are not made up the same way as Image for the most part.

Yeah sure... but they sure as hell had success with things like Constantine and swampthing, and fables. . .

The MAIN issue really does have to do with lack of compelling stories. They're arent made like image, no... but they certainly DO have imprints vertigo, young animal... hell they're the ones that
published milestone innovative and diverse unlike anything before or since. Though what made that... really... One man with vision and many people with love and talent.

A close second I'm thinking really is the format.
I was never a reader of Shonen but the fact that the serialized book cost less that a graphic novel and contains multiple stories distantly seemed to me a better deal.

Moreover, I can't even express how many times I've thought and heard other suggest: man we need a DC comics presents/Spotlight/SOMETHING that keeps up with the other characters that AREN'T the justice league or don't have their own book.

Lots of people would jump on if it was: Young Justice, Leviathan, Vixen/Guy Gardner/LOBO *Your favorite solo character that you don't get to see enough* and it rotated periodically..
and it cost less than the cost of 3 whole books.

But... in the end this:

For the life of me i cant see what people have against the concept of comic shops.

I don't I love it. Poor black kid from the hood in the south and it was the MOST accepting place in the world. It was the coolest environment ever when I was young and used to walk there.
Some people had different experiences is what I gather.
The thing is the party is over. Even loving comicshops and having nothing but cool moments in them, I finally as of this moment acknowledge that the era is ending.

Blockbuster went the same way. We can drag our claws against the rug as its pulled out from under us, stand as the bulldozer brings down the walls around us but in the end... How do you stop progress?

Videos and Radio stars ma'man.

You can put colorful comics and justice league and batman on cheap paper in stores, so that the kids see them and the parents impulse buy them while they shop. You can package new characters and obscure characters in a collected book with the trinity...

But in the end... people just download what they want now, and its funny that they're doing it for full price still when there's zero paper/printing/copying fees, but thats a lot more real to most young people that going to a musty old shop. Sorry If I'm waxing there, I'm just tasting the bitter taste of defeat suddenly.

Objectively, post covid things are gonna change in a lot of ways, and they already were it was just slower.

5G and every reskin diversity"MASS" initiative is doomed to fail though because established characters are established for a reason, but moreso... because the industry as it was before probably can't just keep
using the same tactics over and over again for the same price.

[Ascended]

For the life of me i cant see what people have against the concept of comic shops.

Its a set up the envy of most of the rest of the world.

People go on like its a gulag.

Nobody is denying the influence and success the direct market has had, and certainly not the industry's wins before that. But the key word here is "had." And pointing out the problems with direct market is not calling it a gulag, it's just being honest about the state of things. If this industry were healthy, then half the crap we've talked about the last few pages of this thread wouldn't be a concern.

[iron chimp]

There is nothing wrong with comic shops per say, the problem begins when they begin to monopolize the distribution of comics to the point you can only find them at comic shops. When I was young, you could get print comics, at the corner store (AM/PM or 7 Eleven) the ferry or bus terminals, grocery and department stores would have a comic rack, and now you can seemingly only find the print at one centralized location, the comic shop. If it wasn't for the above outlets, I would have never been exposed to comics, and would have never bothered to enter a comic shop.

Comic shops never set out to.monopolise distro at all tho. It was marvel and dc that gatecrashed their thing and rode on the back of the successful distro model non code publishers and artists had created for themselves and basically took over it.

Publishers that had been mainstays of the comic shop found themselves without shelf space any more as marvel and dc took over and they either ended up being ogn and bookstores only or out of business.

It wasnt some conspiracy by some evil empire of shops and distro companies. Rather it was the monoliths of dc and marvel just steamrolling in.

[iron chimp]

Nobody is denying the influence and success the direct market has had, and certainly not the industry's wins before that. But the key word here is "had." And pointing out the problems with direct market is not calling it a gulag, it's just being honest about the state of things. If this industry were healthy, then half the crap we've talked about the last few pages of this thread wouldn't be a concern.

Its been a perfectly stable and constant business for 20 years now. Dc will be selling a hell of a lot more books now than during the late 70s or when they were ready to just give up entirely and let marvel have a go with superman and batman.

In 21st century mark millar alone has had 9 films off the back of comics broke ìn comic shops, work out of comic shops is a regular source material now for tv and film and computer games.

Artists have finally established their own publishing company able to actually compete on the racks and hold on to their own copyright and earn more per issue than they get from the big 2.

Comic shops totally survived piracy that absolutely crippled record shops for a decade and saw studios closing.

Comic shops survived a two fold assault by the richest man in the world.

Comic shops have proved to be far more robust than book shops and keep their independence.

Theres been a lot of continuing successes in the 21st century.

[Vampire Savior]

For the life of me i cant see what people have against the concept of comic shops.

An independent network of locally owned businesses forced into creation because of the comics code who over the last 50 years have broken probably 75% of Americas most original genre expanding creators, broke manga in usa, broke moebius and bande dessine in usa, broke the best the UK had to offer in the usa. Stocked everything from harcore gay porn, to 'wimmins comix', to self published comics, to drug and acid comics.

Its a set up the envy of most of the rest of the world.

People go on like its a gulag.

Most people aren't going to care about supporting the independent man. I believe most people will do what is most convenient for them. I also am not sure comics shops broke manga in the U.S. I would credit anime on television with breaking manga in the U.S. more than anything, and people who loved it enough were going to find ways to get their hands on manga no matter what.

As for the idea of the shop, it's a really outdated model, and it's not a model that supports growth, and never really was. It's a model that can work after a fashion, but not as the main vehicle for comics distribution. In that role, it's busted as all get out. The problem is that nobody has developed a viable alternative that has either (a) been embraced by the existing fans, or (b) brought in so many new fans as to more or less overwrite the importance of the existing ones. I guess because there is not enough money in comics for people to invest enough capital into getting something like that off the ground, or comics simply hasn't caught the attention of people who can do that, and no one has yet stumbled into the next phase through sheer force of will and ingenuity, or just dumb luck. People seem to be perfectly content exploiting the comics characters in other media to large success, while letting the actual comics industry flounder.

I kind of suspect that DC and Marvel Comics may not have any huge renaissance again (at least not in comics form), because media has changed a lot. Even within comics. For example, DC, Marvel, Image, and the Direct Market aren't the only games in town anymore. People wanting to get into comics or get their work out there have WAAAAAAAAY more options these days. And the options are proven more and more viable as time goes on. That's just one aspect of things that changes the landscape dramatically. If you dig even further into that...(and I've said this before) what intelligent creator, knowing their options, is going to surrender their best ideas for a corporation to take ownership of them? That's one reason why you see so much tepid content coming out of DC and Marvel, but there are many others.

[The no face guy]

Comic shops never set out to.monopolise distro at all tho. It was marvel and dc that gatecrashed their thing and rode on the back of the successful distro model non code publishers and artists had created for themselves and basically took over it.

Publishers that had been mainstays of the comic shop found themselves without shelf space any more as marvel and dc took over and they either ended up being ogn and bookstores only or out of business.

It wasnt some conspiracy by some evil empire of shops and distro companies. Rather it was the monoliths of dc and marvel just steamrolling in.

I agree but they didn't shed a tear either when comic racks started to disappear from corner stores and other outlets. I don't blame the comic shop owners, they're just the little guys on the food chain, but the distribution by Diamond distributers really centralized comics to the point the only place a young kid would find them would be in comic shops.

[iron chimp]

Most people aren't going to care about supporting the independent man. I believe most people will do what is most convenient for them. I also am not sure comics shops broke manga in the U.S. I would credit anime on television with breaking manga in the U.S. more than anything, and people who loved it enough were going to find ways to get their hands on manga no matter what.

As for the idea of the shop, it's a really outdated model, and it's not a model that supports growth, and never really was. It's a model that can work after a fashion, but not as the main vehicle for comics distribution. In that role, it's busted as all get out. The problem is that nobody has developed a viable alternative that has either (a) been embraced by the existing fans, or (b) brought in so many new fans as to more or less overwrite the importance of the existing ones. I guess because there is not enough money in comics for people to invest enough capital into getting something like that off the ground, or comics simply hasn't caught the attention of people who can do that, and no one has yet stumbled into the next phase through sheer force of will and ingenuity, or just dumb luck. People seem to be perfectly content exploiting the comics characters in other media to large success, while letting the actual comics industry flounder.

I kind of suspect that DC and Marvel Comics may not have any huge renaissance again (at least not in comics form), because media has changed a lot. Even within comics. For example, DC, Marvel, Image, and the Direct Market aren't the only games in town anymore. People wanting to get into comics or get their work out there have WAAAAAAAAY more options these days. And the options are proven more and more viable as time goes on. That's just one aspect of things that changes the landscape dramatically. If you dig even further into that...(and I've said this before) what intelligent creator, knowing their options, is going to surrender their best ideas for a corporation to take ownership of them? That's one reason why you see so much tepid content coming out of DC and Marvel, but there are many others.

Marvel, dark horse, first, and eclipse all had translated manga in the comic shops in mid to late 80s. As you say there was a wider import of japanese cultute on that era - you could suddenly buy experimental japanese rock music, see Japanese films at art house cinemas, buy the occasional anine video etc but comic shops was where most people first saw manga.

You had people like frank miller and alan moore championing it and explaing what it was and why it mattered and then you had Stan Sakai who had long been a lauded creator in the shops.

[skyvolt2000]

Moreover, I can't even express how many times I've thought and heard other suggest: man we need a DC comics presents/Spotlight/SOMETHING that keeps up with the other characters that AREN'T the justice league or don't have their own book.

Lots of people would jump on if it was: Young Justice, Leviathan, Vixen/Guy Gardner/LOBO *Your favorite solo character that you don't get to see enough* and it rotated periodically..
and it cost less than the cost of 3 whole books.

You are not the first person to yell that and you won't be the last. Many folks have screamed this.

90s DC Showcase did that for 3 years.
Dark Horse did it and still sort of do it on and off.
Boom will do it sometimes.
Action Lab will too.


The reply I keep hearing is " I don't want to pay $5 for 8 pages on someone I like or it HAS to have Batman-because Batman sells." That is why we are in this mess NOW.
The world will NOT end if Batman is not in something.

A 256 or 300 pager-that has say 5-10 complete stories for say $10.

1 Young Justice
2 Duke Thomas
3 Question
4 Zantana
5 Hal Jordan
6 Gem World
7 JSA
8 Lobo
9 & 10 Do a two parter batman or Superman story.

Now some will scream about payment and pay rate for the creative teams. Companies have paid folks to do stories and sit on them for a time. Archie is NOTORIOUS for this. Archie has been sitting on a Chuck Clayton story by Alex Simmons for now 3 years. Tony Isabella was paid by Marvel to do a bunch of Rocket Racer stories. Except for one they all appeared in Spider-man annuals. The other one was in marvel tales 250.

If you want to toss in reprints-FINE. Just don't include stuff that has already been reprinted.

The 1996 Teen Titans is not in trade.
DC Showscase 93-96 are not either.
Action Comics Weekly says hi.

[skyvolt2000]

For the life of me i cant see what people have against the concept of comic shops.

Because they no longer have that exclusivity they once had.

What is 100% killing them is what they sale is no longer comic book store exclusive.

Lets say I want Batman and the Signal trade.

Comic Book store cover price.

Ebay-the floppies run $12 with free shipping

the trade $6.12 with free shipping

Amazon 13.61 (shipping free with prime or $3.98)

Half Price Books (online)
New 13.36
Used 5.52 (4 dollar shipping)
In Store $8

Target
13.69 (5% off if pay with Target card)

Wal-Mart
13.61 FREE pick up is 2 day delivery

This is not counting SALES.

"Cheaper to get them at Target. Because we don't get the perks and discounts Target and others get" a comic book store employee told me when I noticed he had the Avengers funko pops in his hands.

This is the price you pay with Batman sells nonsense. Getting his stuff cheaper is not an issue.
You might say what about The Question or Static? Folks have to KNOW about them. Not 5 years later after the book has come and gone.
As more of these other companies become mainstream due to movies and shows-it hurts the comic book store.

Gators will bash Vagrant Queen or Image's Bitter Root or Kwanza's Black for getting tv or movie deals. Those deals got them shelf or web space on Barnes & Nobles.
Allegiance Arts and Entertainment got their 5 dollar comics at Wal-mart and UNLIKE Dc Collection books-I can go straight to magazines and find them. In MINT shape. Unlike Dc Collection where you have to hunt for them (or actually go to Target to find them).

The comic book store is not the problem. Free market and evolution is what is getting many of them.

You need exclusive stuff that THEY only sell. And it must be promoted. And it can't be Batman, Superman, WW, Hal and their friends only. It has to be a John Stewart, Question, Swamp Thing, Doom Patrol, Static, Young Justice and so on BEYOND background roles.

You might have to get someone-certain fandom don't like. You might have to give some folks shots at characters.