DC 5G: the Replacements

[Holt]

Remember when DC tried to replace some existing mid tier heroes with more diverse characters? Jason Rousch, Ryan Choi, and Jaime Reyes. All those characters are currently shelved and the originals are all back.

And yet they still had a much longer run than just about any of the original new heroes who were also created around that time or in those ensuing years. Hey, anyone remember Breach? Simon Dark? Mother Panic? Solstice? Bunker? Skitter? The Monolith? Or any of the recent new generation characters we'd mentioned like Silencer and her ilk?

Trying to push new character is hard in the current market place, but across the board the ones who've had more staying power (or ANY, honestly) have been the legacy heroes. Even if Jaime Reyes is currently shelved, for instance, that was after a pretty lengthy run as a Titan and in various other mediums like TV shows and video games. And prior to him you had an entire generation of people whose first exposure to Green Lantern was on the Justice League TV show, where it was someone other than Hal wielding the ring.

[Robotman]

And yet they still had a much longer run than just about any of the original new heroes who were also created around that time or in those ensuing years. Hey, anyone remember Breach? Simon Dark? Mother Panic? Solstice? Bunker? Skitter? The Monolith? Or any of the recent new generation characters we'd mentioned like Silencer and her ilk?

Trying to push new character is hard in the current market place, but across the board the ones who've had more staying power (or ANY, honestly) have been the legacy heroes. Even if Jaime Reyes is currently shelved, for instance, that was after a pretty lengthy run as a Titan and in various other mediums like TV shows and video games. And prior to him you had an entire generation of people whose first exposure to Green Lantern was on the Justice League TV show, where it was someone other than Hal wielding the ring.

Well if your theory is true it’s pretty tragic as there will never be a black, Hispanic, Asian, etc. successful original character again. John Stewart is one of DC’s most well know superheroes who is a POC but there will always be an argument over who should be the main GL. John is probably the second most popular GL at the moment. Same with Miles Morales. He’s very popular but he’ll never be anywhere close to Peter Parker. So are we just fighting for runner up?!?

[Holt]

Like I said, there's no easy answer. But "Creating original characters would be better!" is a claim that gets constantly thrown around in discussions about legacy heroes, even though all available evidence says that these original characters fans would supposedly prefer fare even worse. That's my point. If fans put their money where their mouth is and gave these characters a chance, maybe things would be different.

But comic fans are set in their ways and many have an aversion to trying new things. Mosaic was an excellent series with a brand new black protagonist and it completely cratered. As have most other attempts at launching new series with original protagonists regardless of their gender or skin color.

[iron chimp]

Image is nothing but new characters.

As was most of Epic at marvel and vertigo at DC.

If marvel and dc cant do what image does or what they could do themselves 20 years ago then thats their fault not readers. If youre only thing is endlessly churning out variations on a theme and wondering why 90% bomb then maybe dont do that.

[Holt]

If marvel and dc cant do what image does or what they could do themselves 20 years ago then thats their fault not readers.

Agreed in the sense that the stagnant readership is definitely a large problem and a major part of the reason why AT&T is seemingly eager to break out and target other audiences outside the direct market.

When you can't cycle in and out audiences then your business model is eventually going to crash.

[Godlike13]

Image can do what they do cause DC and Marvel do what they do.

[Korath]

Like I said, there's no easy answer. But "Creating original characters would better!" is a claim that gets constantly thrown around in discussions about legacy heroes, even though all available evidence says that these original characters fans would supposedly prefer fare even worse. That's my point. If fans put their money where their mouth is and gave these characters a chance, maybe things would be different.

But comic fans are set in their ways and many have an aversion to trying new things. Mosaic was an excellent series with a brand new black protagonist and it completely cratered. As have most other attempts at launching new series with original protagonists regardless of their gender or skin color.

It's particularly inane when you remember what happened with the NaOH when it was still called Dark Matter. We knew nothing but the name of the writer/artist and the characters. Brimstone, Damage, The Silencer, etc. And guess what even then some people already decided that it was dead on arrival and wouldn't buy it because they were certain that there wouldn't be enough sales to sustain the books, which mean that they created a self-fulfilling prophecy and, lo and behold, despite some great ideas and stories (Brimstone, Sideways, The Silencer are my favorite by far for instance) it was the hiccups (Immortal Men, Damage) which got to define the line, meaning that those characters, no matter how awesome they were, are already lost to limbo (save perhaps Silencer if she pop up again in WW and Leviathan and Sideways who gets to cameo in YJ for now).

[Masterff]

Trying to push new character is hard in the current market place, but across the board the ones who've had more staying power (or ANY, honestly) have been the legacy heroes. Even if Jaime Reyes is currently shelved, for instance, that was after a pretty lengthy run as a Titan and in various other mediums like TV shows and video games. And prior to him you had an entire generation of people whose first exposure to Green Lantern was on the Justice League TV show, where it was someone other than Hal wielding the ring.

Sorry but thats COMPLETELY WRONG!

Pushing characters is relatively EASY........

Problems are:

1. POWERS!
Sorry,but many new Superheroes just have powers like other people already have:
NAOMI for example has Flying,Super-Strength and Energy Blasts which makes her like Superman,Superboy,Supergirl,Starfire,Miss Martian............

STAR-BLOSSOM and probably Djinn are the only new Superheroes who I found interesting because of their powers.

2. LOOK
The last NEW Superhero whose Look I LOVED was SUPERBOY (CONNER) and this was 1994.
His look was refreshing and cool, NOT just another one with Cape or Armour
RED HOOD (JASON TODD) also has a VERY COOL look which I like
ORPHAN/BATGIRL (CASSANDRA CAIN) was also nice...

I for example MISS Superheroes who have a really "drastic" look like Full-Body Tattoos....

3. DOMINANCE of JL

4. ANTI-HEROES probably work better

5. Name
I often also dont like their Code-Name and dont find them recognizable, cool enough....

Characters like Spider-Man,Punisher,Ghost Rider, Batman...have their unique look and are recognizable..

Ghost Rider for example has the cool look,unique powers.....

I would LOVE for example to see a Superhero with many tattoos like NEW52 EL DIABLO who is using magic powers, but more as a mix of voodoo and dark magic...

VOODOO (the WILDSTORM Version) was for example a very cool character with cool abilities..

[HandofPrometheus]

Remember when DC tried to replace some existing mid tier heroes with more diverse characters? Jason Rousch, Ryan Choi, and Jaime Reyes. All those characters are currently shelved and the originals are all back.

Which is funny because I'll argue that Jason, Ryan, and Jaime had the "IT" factor but DC purposely squandered them. They had the potential to be more popular than their predecessor (Jaime and Ryan probably are)

[Holt]

Sorry but thats COMPLETELY WRONG!

And yet, as I've said, the overwhelming majority of brand new non-legacy characters both Marvel and DC have tried to launch the last 15 years have fared worse than the legacy ones.

Which is funny because I'll argue that Jason, Ryan, and Jaime had the "IT" factor but DC purposely squandered them. They had the potential to be more popular than their predecessor (Jaime and Ryan probably are)

It's been rumored that a Blue Beetle show is in the works for HBO Max. If that happens hopefully DC is motivated to do something else with Jaime again.

[Will Evans]

Remember when DC tried to replace some existing mid tier heroes with more diverse characters? Jason Rousch, Ryan Choi, and Jaime Reyes. All those characters are currently shelved and the originals are all back.

But all of those characters have appeared in media outside of comics. So in that regard, they were successful. Especially since media outside of comics, already tend to be more diverse.

Meanwhile, characters like Conner Hawks are screwed

[Vordan]

And yet, as I've said, the overwhelming majority of brand new non-legacy characters both Marvel and DC have tried to launch the last 15 years have fared worse than the legacy ones.



It's been rumored that a Blue Beetle show is in the works for HBO Max. If that happens hopefully DC is motivated to do something else with Jaime again.

Would help if they actually got a Latino creator or someone young to write Jaime, rather than tossing the book to Giffen again. I respect the old guard but when it comes to young characters, you really should prioritize younger creators.

[iron chimp]

Sorry but thats COMPLETELY WRONG!

Pushing characters is relatively EASY........

Problems are:

1. POWERS!
Sorry,but many new Superheroes just have powers like other people already have:
NAOMI for example has Flying,Super-Strength and Energy Blasts which makes her like Superman,Superboy,Supergirl,Starfire,Miss Martian............

STAR-BLOSSOM and probably Djinn are the only new Superheroes who I found interesting because of their powers.

2. LOOK
The last NEW Superhero whose Look I LOVED was SUPERBOY (CONNER) and this was 1994.
His look was refreshing and cool, NOT just another one with Cape or Armour
RED HOOD (JASON TODD) also has a VERY COOL look which I like
ORPHAN/BATGIRL (CASSANDRA CAIN) was also nice...

I for example MISS Superheroes who have a really "drastic" look like Full-Body Tattoos....

3. DOMINANCE of JL

4. ANTI-HEROES probably work better

5. Name
I often also dont like their Code-Name and dont find them recognizable, cool enough....

Characters like Spider-Man,Punisher,Ghost Rider, Batman...have their unique look and are recognizable..

Ghost Rider for example has the cool look,unique powers.....

I would LOVE for example to see a Superhero with many tattoos like NEW52 EL DIABLO who is using magic powers, but more as a mix of voodoo and dark magic...

VOODOO (the WILDSTORM Version) was for example a very cool character with cool abilities..

That can be the hook though. What do you do when yr just like a 1000 other people. How do you get your money? Hustling for crap jobs. Do you feel cheated you ended up with a magic yellow torch but it was the guy with the green lantern that made it? What happened to your predecessors - a trip through the dc archives and through the ages of the unlucky, the born to fail, the ones who were sold out etc. Is suicide squad the inevitable skid row yr heading to. Could be fun, use different art styles for different decades, poke fun at different things, crap team ups with others blighted by your problem etc

[skyvolt2000]

Image is nothing but new characters.

As was most of Epic at marvel and vertigo at DC.

If marvel and dc cant do what image does or what they could do themselves 20 years ago then thats their fault not readers. If youre only thing is endlessly churning out variations on a theme and wondering why 90% bomb then maybe dont do that.

Image is not held hostage by one or two franchise to where someone like a Johns or Dan could do whatever.

Didio could not do some of the antics at Image that he did at DC.

He could not do to Malcolm Dragon (Savage Dragon's half black son) that he did to Wally West. Erick Larson would have NONE of it. That is why Malcolm has a book and a wife and 4 kids.

He coud not tell Kirkman to NOT use Michonne in Walking Dead because he thinks she is PITCH TOXIC.

Spawn, Witchblade, Savage Dragon & Invincible had franchises and spinoffs NEVER at the expense of anyone else's book.

Also the fan bickering that infest marvel & Dc is not at Image.

Bitter Root readers will never see a 'We want Motor Crush" invade any discussion thread about Bitter Root.

There is no one saying why do you need Excellence, Stealth, Bitter Root, Savage Dragon & Killadelphia when you have Spawn-it's that enough books starring a black guy.

And yet, as I've said, the overwhelming majority of brand new non-legacy characters both Marvel and DC have tried to launch the last 15 years have fared worse than the legacy ones.

Correct. because for many once that book ended. Many of them headed to limbo or WORST-DEATH-see Mettle or Hotspot.

Yet when folks bring up these guys-it's AMAZING how many folks actually loved those guys.

So are we just fighting for runner up?!?

I guess you forgot Black Panther and Luke Cage.

In both cases Marvel found someone (Priest & Bendis) that wanted to do something with them.

Also as we are seeing most folks want to invest in their OWN creations.

Look at Tynion. No one could question if he could do a LGBTQ book because he's done it with The Backstaggers & The Woods. I know him more from those two books than his Batman work.

Rodney Barnes got push back for Falcon and an after thought for Duke's mini. He's pretty happy with Killadelphia at Image.

Khary Randolph has been wrong by DC too many times to count. he's doing fine with Excellence at Image.

Would help if they actually got a Latino creator or someone young to write Jaime, rather than tossing the book to Giffen again. I respect the old guard but when it comes to young characters, you really should prioritize younger creators.

A lot of these young writers keep being told they are NOT welcomed at marvel or DC. You can take 3 guesses (and the first 2 don't count) at WHO leads those attacks.

That is why ATT is looking elsewhere. You tire of fighting a hostile market that acts like being diverse is forbidden at Marvel or DC.

[Masterff]

And yet, as I've said, the overwhelming majority of brand new non-legacy characters both Marvel and DC have tried to launch the last 15 years have fared worse than the legacy ones.

Yes, but like I already said I understand that, because I also wasnt a fan of them.

Like I said the last non legacy characters who I really liked were Static,Traci13,Empress,some members of the Ravers/Blood Pack.
AND some Wildstorm Characters like Voodoo,Fairchild etc.

Monster Boy could be an interesting character...

Like I said it would be easy to establish new heroes if they have powers which are unusual,a look which is unique, cool atitude and are already on the level of JL.