DC 5G: the Replacements

[Frontier]

Well, they might probably be around in JSA.

Yeah, if that ends up being the only book featuring Diana as Wonder Woman it'll probably have them, but that book is going to dealing with the full JSA roster so I'm not really expecting much from the supporting cast.

I guess those aspects of Diana don't matter as much now if she's not going to be a leading lady anymore.

This is mostly my thinking too. Breaking out new characters is hard. ANAD, while hated a lot online, did a lot for diversity in Marvel. I know of more than a few people that took up comics for that Jane Thor. And now she is going to be in a movie and guess who holds the Captain America shield now.

If it a sticks (VERY big if) it'll add new story potential to people that'll be the "main characters" of the universe.

If it doesn't stick, I still think it could elevate these characters to a good degree of relevance. If done right.

I think part of my problem is introducing new "main characters" when DC hasn't quite capitalized on the characters they've been trying to promote as "main characters" right now, or the old "main characters" like Wally, Dick, etc.

Like, is this new Flash going to make up for how DC treated Wally in favor of Barry? Are we just going to drop every other Flash?

Will the new Wonder Woman make up for all of DC's bungling of Diana?

Will making Jon Kent as Superman go over any better then aging him up and taking the Legion away from his dad to give to him?

Will Aquaman's rise to stardom be impacted by replacing him so soon after his rise?

Luke might be interesting, although Superheavy didn't really bump Gordon up that much. But even from day one it was pretty clear the mantle change there wasn't going to be permanent.

If I were a betting man, DC is going to have its cake and eat it too by focusing the main line on 5G but then also releasing 1G, 2G, 3G and 4G books with the classic heroes.

I think that's heavily dependent on how many books DC is willing to publish.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Some of the fans here don't seem to understand the purpose behind this. This isn't meant for classic comic book readers. Like ANAD, which help Marvel branch into finally producing semi-successful to successful new characters for Marvel, this is meant to attract new readers with a diverse setting of new characters that aren't given the chance with the current reading demographic. Now if some classic fans actually enjoy the new books that they would release from 5g, more power to you, you break the mold. But DC definitely isn't doing this for classic readers, they know full well that classic readers prefer the status quo. But that same status quo is limiting the ability to reach new audiences and is causing their sales to be even worse than when it was during New 52.

So it's perfectly understandable to be upset about your prefer characters being replaced (though it sounds like the books will continue to be release, it's just more like a JSA based universe while 5g would be the current universe) but let's not pretend like 5g is meant for the classic comic book fan. It's not.

I don't follow Marvel closely, but a quick glance at last month's solicits shows me that all the classic characters are back already, headlining their usual books. And this is after what, Marvel's fifth rebranding in the last eight years? Using a stablished character as a crutch to introduce more diversity or variety in the roster has been proved to never work in the long term and in the current status quo of DC, where no one is really happy with their direction, this will only further alienate the core fanbase for a spike in sales that will plummet in a few months. It happened with DCYOU already, it happened with most of Marvel's relaunches, it will happen again.

You want to diversify your characters? Appeal to a new fanbase? Then diversify your output with new books, new lines. DC's recent approach with subsidiary lines for young adults and kids is the perfect way to reach a newer audience, replacing a well-known character for literal unknowns, is not.

[Tzigone]

You want to diversify your characters? Appeal to a new fanbase? Then diversify your output with new books, new lines. DC's recent approach with subsidiary lines for young adults and kids is the perfect way to reach a newer audience, replacing a well-known character for literal unknowns, is not.

I think that's okay, but I'm not sure if out-of-continuity (some are) is great to bring people into main-contintuity. But if you just want them buying those books, that's cool, too. But some readers only want to read the "big title" - I think that's more likely to be existing comic readers than new audience, though. I do think new characters in new OGNs, each in their own continuity would be an interesting tactic. But it could end up a "do it for 5 years, then you have to come up with a new one" thing instead of a consistently valuable IP. But maybe not. Or maybe if promoted to younger readers via cartoons and such, maybe you have the next TMNT on your hands - it's not what it once was, but it made bunch of money once upon a time. Works if you don't mind doing something new, to a new fanbase, every few years. Toys and cartoons aged at younger viewers (and they are doing some) are good, too. I like animated shows for older viewers, but younger kids drive the toy market. I mean toys, not collectibles.

Though, I'll grant, like other tv, the cartoon market is more fractured now, too. You don't have every kid watching the same Saturday morning cartoons like the 80s. Harder to be He-Man.

[leo619]

I don't follow Marvel closely, but a quick glance at last month's solicits shows me that all the classic characters are back already, headlining their usual books. And this is after what, Marvel's fifth rebranding in the last eight years? Using a stablished character as a crutch to introduce more diversity or variety in the roster has been proved to never work in the long term and in the current status quo of DC, where no one is really happy with their direction, this will only further alienate the core fanbase for a spike in sales that will plummet in a few months. It happened with DCYOU already, it happened with most of Marvel's relaunches, it will happen again.

You want to diversify your characters? Appeal to a new fanbase? Then diversify your output with new books, new lines. DC's recent approach with subsidiary lines for young adults and kids is the perfect way to reach a newer audience, replacing a well-known character for literal unknowns, is not.

Yes, they're headlining their usual books, while the new characters are headlining their own books and being successful there. That's the entire point. So yes, ANAD was successful. No one was expecting the new characters to remain headlining the classic names entirely. Everyone expected for it to return back to the status quo eventually. But what they were able to perform, is to allow the new characters that wouldn't have been given a chance before to be in their own books and ranging from semi-successful to fully successful books, (depending upon the character.)

So yes, it has worked in the long haul, and that's why DC is attempting to perform the same method that Marvel did. They see the success ANAD brought with Miles Morales, Mighty Thor, X-23, all the way down to scholastic deals with Moon Girl, and they're being left behind because of the current stronghold that's on their products. In the end, replacing a well known character with literal unknown, aka ANAD, was successful. Setting out New lines, aka DC's Dark Matter Universe, did not work. They specifically tried that method because they saw classic fan criticism given to ANAD, and thought producing a new line with characters would draw in the appeal they were looking for. They put their high end artist and high end writers on the books. What happened? It crashed and burn, one by one. That's when DC realize trying to listen to classic fan readership to appeal to new fan readership isn't going to work. Because what classic fans think should work primarily just focuses on what the classic fan wants while trying to give out a small olive branch to the newer readership.

[Frontier]

Falcon is still in limbo. I don't think Sam Wilson's been seen since...man, a guest appearance in that digital exclusive Daughters of the Dragon comic?

Amadeus Cho is leading a team book of Asian heroes, which I guess is something. Please don't mention his current codename .

Laura Kinney took up her old codename (which, really, she was already selling well under).

Ironheart's mini got canceled, but she'll probably be in the new Champions relaunch.

Jane Foster seems to be the only one doing relatively well, assuming sales for her Valkyrie solo hold up.

Miles Morales has steady sales but Superior Spider-Man got canceled.

[leo619]

Falcon is still in limbo. I don't think Sam Wilson's been seen since...man, a guest appearance in that digital exclusive Daughters of the Dragon comic?

Amadeus Cho is leading a team book of Asian heroes, which I guess is something. Please don't mention his current codename .

Laura Kinney took up her old codename (which, really, she was already selling well under).

Ironheart's mini got canceled, but she'll probably be in the new Champions relaunch.

Jane Foster seems to be the only one doing relatively well, assuming sales for her Valkyrie solo hold up.

Miles Morales has steady sales but Superior Spider-Man got canceled.

No one said ANAD was perfect. For one, Falcon as Captain America started off strong but quickly crashed and burn since the series primarily started off as someone who could barely hang with the big time even though he's been around for decades. His series was on the lower selling side after a certain period of time under Captain America and literally crashed and burn when he return back to Falcon. (I definitely still prefer his Captain America mantle, especially with what's going on today in America)

My biggest issue I had with the transition is that when they started indicating bringing back the classic heroes, they provided the impression that the legacy characters would retain their mantle even when the old guard return. So the classic characters and legacy characters would retain the same names. But as we all know, most of that did not happen. Cho got depowered severely and has a new codename that's meh. I still prefer Mighty Thor over Valkyrie, and Laura is back to X-23. The only one that was able to remain the same was Spider Man, and look at that, he's the most successful legacy hero that Marvel has released in the last decade (though that's largely thanks to the Into the Spider Verse movie. He's still only the second black superhero to be a protagonist in a Marvel movie besides Black Panther.)

But even for the flaws that it possessed, it still brought allowed many new characters a chance, which wasn't an option before ANAD was committed. Now people are asking to have Ironheart appear in the MCU since Tony step down, which wouldn't have been possible before ANAD.

This is the extra breath that DC not only wants, but "needs."

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

I think that's okay, but I'm not sure if out-of-continuity (some are) is great to bring people into main-contintuity. But if you just want them buying those books, that's cool, too. But some readers only want to read the "big title" - I think that's more likely to be existing comic readers than new audience, though. I do think new characters in new OGNs, each in their own continuity would be an interesting tactic. But it could end up a "do it for 5 years, then you have to come up with a new one" thing instead of a consistently valuable IP. But maybe not. Or maybe if promoted to younger readers via cartoons and such, maybe you have the next TMNT on your hands - it's not what it once was, but it made bunch of money once upon a time. Works if you don't mind doing something new, to a new fanbase, every few years. Toys and cartoons aged at younger viewers (and they are doing some) are good, too. I like animated shows for older viewers, but younger kids drive the toy market. I mean toys, not collectibles.

Though, I'll grant, like other tv, the cartoon market is more fractured now, too. You don't have every kid watching the same Saturday morning cartoons like the 80s. Harder to be He-Man.

As you point out, those caring for continuity are long-time fans. Anyone outside of that demographic doesn't really care about the way one story fits into another or why is important to know when Batman and Superman took a trip to the Bahamas. If anything, continuity actually scares or turns off possible new readers since the notion of having to read tons and tons and tons of old issues is seen as a waste of time. They want something easily consumed, and for that, they could just pick the trade of that one story used for a film/cartoon and move to the next thing it catches their eye.

Yes, they're headlining their usual books, while the new characters are headlining their own books and being successful there. That's the entire point. So yes, ANAD was successful. No one was expecting the new characters to remain headlining the classic names entirely. Everyone expected for it to return back to the status quo eventually. But what they were able to perform, is to allow the new characters that wouldn't have been given a chance before to be in their own books and ranging from semi-successful to fully successful books, (depending upon the character.)

You realize they could've launched the same characters without the publicity stunt of replacing classic characters, yes? For all the talk about Marvel having a more diverse roster, in the end the hard truth is that they are manipulating the market with their continuous relaunches and fabricated controversies every time the audience looks elsewhere. Furthermore, the idea of attracting new readers is to increase the already declining sales, something that no real initiative from the big 2 has managed to do. The N52 was the closest thing they got and that eventually died off as well, prompting DCYOU, which failed even harder.

So yes, it has worked in the long haul, and that's why DC is attempting to perform the same method that Marvel did. They see the success ANAD brought with Miles Morales, Mighty Thor, X-23, all the way down to scholastic deals with Moon Girl, and they're being left behind because of the current stronghold that's on their products. In the end, replacing a well known character with literal unknown, aka ANAD, was successful. Setting out New lines, aka DC's Dark Matter Universe, did not work. They specifically tried that method because they saw classic fan criticism given to ANAD, and thought producing a new line with characters would draw in the appeal they were looking for. They put their high end artist and high end writers on the books. What happened? It crashed and burn, one by one. That's when DC realize trying to listen to classic fan readership to appeal to new fan readership isn't going to work. Because what classic fans think should work primarily just focuses on what the classic fan wants while trying to give out a small olive branch to the newer readership.

We're going to disagree here. I gave a closer look at December solicits and the only legacy characters actually headlining their own title are Miles, Kamala, Gwen and Jane Foster. And out of those four, Miles continues to operate with the same name as a classic hero (and even then he's a transplant of an entirely different publishing line). So touting ANAD as a success is overselling it a bit.

From what I remember of Dark Matter, only Rocafort sticked to Sideways until the very end, with every other artist (who were the selling point of the line) moving to other things just a few issues in. The only writer that I'd consider "High End" of those involved in Dark Matter is Jeff Lemire, who just happened to write the only book that survived from that initiative, Terrifcs. So yeah, as always, is a matter of quality rather than quantity. And from the little, we know of 5G, the whole thing is haphardzaly put together that seems like DC didn't learn anything from Dark Matter.

[Tzigone]

As you point out, those caring for continuity are long-time fans. Anyone outside of that demographic doesn't really care about the way one story fits into another or why is important to know when Batman and Superman took a trip to the Bahamas. If anything, continuity actually scares or turns off possible new readers since the notion of having to read tons and tons and tons of old issues is seen as a waste of time. They want something easily consumed, and for that, they could just pick the trade of that one story used for a film/cartoon and move to the next thing it catches their eye.

So why not do OGNs for casual fans and the monthly issues for the long-term fans?

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

So why not do OGNs for casual fans and the monthly issues for the long-term fans?

Excellent question. As I said before, I think that DC was on the right track with the main DCU line, the Black Label line, and the Zoom and Ink ones. There was something for everyone.

[leo619]

You realize they could've launched the same characters without the publicity stunt of replacing classic characters, yes? For all the talk about Marvel having a more diverse roster, in the end the hard truth is that they are manipulating the market with their continuous relaunches and fabricated controversies every time the audience looks elsewhere. Furthermore, the idea of attracting new readers is to increase the already declining sales, something that no real initiative from the big 2 has managed to do. The N52 was the closest thing they got and that eventually died off as well, prompting DCYOU, which failed even harder.

Could they have launched the same characters without replacing ANAD? Definitely, but would it have been the success that it would have been without replacing the classic characters? Again, as Dark Matter has showed, most likely no. The entire purpose behind ANAD was to allowed to bring in new readership and to allow diverse characters to have a better chance at succeeding in books then before they launched the initiative. Did Marvel do that? Definitely. Now does that mean 5g will, or has Fresh Start solved the entire problem of declining readership? Definitely not, because neither initiatives has fully fixed the problem of the comic book demographic.
Over priced books, Digital Books costing as much as their print counterparts, The Comic Book Store Dilemma, and the big 2 still unwillingness to go as far as needed to attract the new audiences (like allowing the legacy characters to keep the mantles they kept in ANAD) But 5g, will be a step in the right direction.

We're going to disagree here. I gave a closer look at December solicits and the only legacy characters actually headlining their own title are Miles, Kamala, Gwen and Jane Foster. And out of those four, Miles continues to operate with the same name as a classic hero (and even then he's a transplant of an entirely different publishing line). So touting ANAD as a success is overselling it a bit.

From what I remember of Dark Matter, only Rocafort sticked to Sideways until the very end, with every other artist (who were the selling point of the line) moving to other things just a few issues in. The only writer that I'd consider "High End" of those involved in Dark Matter is Jeff Lemire, who just happened to write the only book that survived from that initiative, Terrifcs. So yeah, as always, is a matter of quality rather than quantity. And from the little, we know of 5G, the whole thing is haphardzaly put together that seems like DC didn't learn anything from Dark Matter.

Yeah we're going to have to disagree here, cause seeing as Marvel couldn't have a single successful minority solo book selling well until Miles Morales and ANAD came along (and DC still can't make a successful minority solo selling series), I'm going to continue to call ANAD a success.

Dark Matter never made a huge splash to begin with, so it has nothing to do with writers/artist transitioning after a few issues. None of the original first books, even with the heavy hitters for artist and writers, even cracked the top 10. While Captain America, Mighty Thor, Miles Morales and more all did. Secondly, we're going to have to agree to disagree on top writers seeing as a few names like Scott Synder and James Tynion who was given batman would often be considered high end writers.

[vasir12]

https://www.cbr.com/exclusive-tales-...new-dc-crisis/

Looks like a crisis is definitely coming and it'll involve the dark multiverse again. My guess is that this'll all go down after the Metal sequel.

Does anyone think anyone else but the big six will be replaced?

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Could they have launched the same characters without replacing ANAD? Definitely, but would it have been the success that it would have been without replacing the classic characters? Again, as Dark Matter has showed, most likely no. The entire purpose behind ANAD was to allowed to bring in new readership and to allow diverse characters to have a better chance at succeeding in books then before they launched the initiative. Did Marvel do that? Definitely. Now does that mean 5g will, or has Fresh Start solved the entire problem of declining readership? Definitely not, because neither initiatives has fully fixed the problem of the comic book demographic.
Over priced books, Digital Books costing as much as their print counterparts, The Comic Book Store Dilemma, and the big 2 still unwillingness to go as far as needed to attract the new audiences (like allowing the legacy characters to keep the mantles they kept in ANAD) But 5g, will be a step in the right direction.








Yeah we're going to have to disagree here, cause seeing as Marvel couldn't have a single successful minority solo book selling well until Miles Morales and ANAD came along (and DC still can't make a successful minority solo selling series), I'm going to continue to call ANAD a success.

Dark Matter never made a huge splash to begin with, so it has nothing to do with writers/artist transitioning after a few issues. None of the original first books, even with the heavy hitters for artists and writers, even cracked the top 10. While Captain America, Mighty Thor, Miles Morales and more all did. Secondly, we're going to have to agree to disagree on top writers seeing as a few names like Scott Synder and James Tynion who was given batman would often be considered high end writers.

Miles Morales is just carrying his success over from Ultimate Spiderman.

And what is your metric for a successful book starring a minority? Jaime Reyes' has had three long-running series, the N52 gave us Batwing and Static Shock. Batwoman also counts. Rebirth had New Superman and Sideways. And any book with Kyle technically counts.

[Godlike13]

Wasn’t Miles a product of the Ultimate line?

[Bruce Wayne]

Falcon is still in limbo. I don't think Sam Wilson's been seen since...man, a guest appearance in that digital exclusive Daughters of the Dragon comic?

Amadeus Cho is leading a team book of Asian heroes, which I guess is something. Please don't mention his current codename .

Laura Kinney took up her old codename (which, really, she was already selling well under).

Ironheart's mini got canceled, but she'll probably be in the new Champions relaunch.

Jane Foster seems to be the only one doing relatively well, assuming sales for her Valkyrie solo hold up.

Miles Morales has steady sales but Superior Spider-Man got canceled.

At least Marvel tried. DC tried something similar with OYL and that flopped.

[Frontier]

No one said ANAD was perfect. For one, Falcon as Captain America started off strong but quickly crashed and burn since the series primarily started off as someone who could barely hang with the big time even though he's been around for decades. His series was on the lower selling side after a certain period of time under Captain America and literally crashed and burn when he return back to Falcon. (I definitely still prefer his Captain America mantle, especially with what's going on today in America)

I don't know if Remender's take had an impact on sales or Spencer writing him as such an underdog.

My biggest issue I had with the transition is that when they started indicating bringing back the classic heroes, they provided the impression that the legacy characters would retain their mantle even when the old guard return. So the classic characters and legacy characters would retain the same names. But as we all know, most of that did not happen. Cho got depowered severely and has a new codename that's meh. I still prefer Mighty Thor over Valkyrie, and Laura is back to X-23. The only one that was able to remain the same was Spider Man, and look at that, he's the most successful legacy hero that Marvel has released in the last decade (though that's largely thanks to the Into the Spider Verse movie. He's still only the second black superhero to be a protagonist in a Marvel movie besides Black Panther.)

To be honest, when you see what Marvel's approach were for the legacy characters versus the classic versions, they really didn't set it up in such a way where they could believably coexist together in a shared codename situation in my opinion.

Miles is one of the most noticeable exceptions but I think even he has issues with Marvel just not knowing what to do with him and Peter, especially in media adaptions.

Into the Spider-Verse was one of his strongest media outings and that went out of its way to present the idea that there couldn't be more then one Spider-Man per Earth and that each world only needs it's one, unique, Spider-Man which became Miles. So conceptually he should not be in the same setting as Peter.

But even for the flaws that it possessed, it still brought allowed many new characters a chance, which wasn't an option before ANAD was committed. Now people are asking to have Ironheart appear in the MCU since Tony step down, which wouldn't have been possible before ANAD.

Replacement characters definitely work in a setting where the likelihood the originals coming back is much less likely.

At least Marvel tried. DC tried something similar with OYL and that flopped.

OYL wasn't a bunch of replacement stories, as I remember.