DC 5G: the Replacements

[dswynne]

Didn't they already tried to do this, back in the 1990s? I know for sure that DC tried this for the Marvel Family, with Billy becoming the Wizard, while Freddy became the champion...

[Mutant God]

Diana becomes a god and grants Mary Marvel her power thus making Mary say "SHADAM" when she transforms lol.

[Jackalope89]

Kara is between 16-21.

During Rebirth, she was 16, being in high school and all. Then Bendis came in, sent her off to space as the boy she had started to date went to a now Nightwing-less Titans.

So unless a few years have passed, she's at most, 17.

[Frostbite883]

"Crazy Idea we wouldn’t see coming: Wally West (the Original) as the Flash"

Okay. -_-u

[Frostbite883]

at least rhody and tony are friends

Really besides the point. Like skyvolt mentioned.

The mainstream audience is different from the comic one....

Marvel got attack because you had folks who took issue with skin color and gender.
Many of the complainers never read the books and had cherry picking memories.

And I'm really not holding my breath that many certain comic fans will get over themselves by getting over their bigotries any time soon.

[phantom1592]

Really besides the point. Like skyvolt mentioned.



And I'm really not holding my breath that many certain comic fans will get over themselves by getting over their bigotries any time soon.

Race and gender are also strawmen. I couldn't stand the concept of riri because she made no sense. Tony Stark... the guy who is obsessive about keeping his tech out of dangerous hands... who's biggest stories were both Armor Wars (him declaring war on anyone using Stark-tech) and Civil War (War against anyone inexperienced being a hero without intense oversight and training) instantly hands over the keys to his kingdom to a teenager he's just met... 'because she's smart'.

Rhodey got to be Iron Man too... because he was a good friend he trusted for over 50 issues and he had no choice. Riri didn't FIT the character of Tony Stark.

Sam Wilson gets flack because he was NOT Steve Rogers. Sam as Falcon is awesome... Same as Captain America is a placeholder for the REAL Captain America.... JUST LIKE Bucky was. People like to point out that fans were upset that Sam was Cap when others have been Cap.... but you know what... they were ALSO upset when Bucky was Cap. Fans went crazy when Cap was killed and replaced by Bucky. We had just dealt with years of Bucky as Cap... and when Steve FINALLY comes back, he was immediately aged up and benched for ANOTHER replacement. No bigotry involved there for me. I hated the idea of a black johnny storm with the same animosity I hate the idea a blonde James Bond (and that was a LOT.) With a truly passionate fandom... any change is bad. focusing it all down to simple racism is missing the point.

Same thing will happen here. It's not a case of Fans hate this specific replacement for This particular reason of race or sex.... No, Fans hate ANY replacement... because as fans of a character, nobody wants them to go away... that would be the opposite of being a fan of that character :P

[lemonpeace]

Diana becomes a god and grants Mary Marvel her power thus making Mary say "SHADAM" when she transforms lol.

....yes....

[SiegePerilous02]

Race and gender are also strawmen. I couldn't stand the concept of riri because she made no sense. Tony Stark... the guy who is obsessive about keeping his tech out of dangerous hands... who's biggest stories were both Armor Wars (him declaring war on anyone using Stark-tech) and Civil War (War against anyone inexperienced being a hero without intense oversight and training) instantly hands over the keys to his kingdom to a teenager he's just met... 'because she's smart'.

Rhodey got to be Iron Man too... because he was a good friend he trusted for over 50 issues and he had no choice. Riri didn't FIT the character of Tony Stark.

Sam Wilson gets flack because he was NOT Steve Rogers. Sam as Falcon is awesome... Same as Captain America is a placeholder for the REAL Captain America.... JUST LIKE Bucky was. People like to point out that fans were upset that Sam was Cap when others have been Cap.... but you know what... they were ALSO upset when Bucky was Cap. Fans went crazy when Cap was killed and replaced by Bucky. We had just dealt with years of Bucky as Cap... and when Steve FINALLY comes back, he was immediately aged up and benched for ANOTHER replacement. No bigotry involved there for me. I hated the idea of a black johnny storm with the same animosity I hate the idea a blonde James Bond (and that was a LOT.) With a truly passionate fandom... any change is bad. focusing it all down to simple racism is missing the point.

Same thing will happen here. It's not a case of Fans hate this specific replacement for This particular reason of race or sex.... No, Fans hate ANY replacement... because as fans of a character, nobody wants them to go away... that would be the opposite of being a fan of that character :P

Yes it can be such a stupid strawman argument.

I don't want another Batman (with the exception of Dick Grayson) be they black or white or whatever. I'm only interested in the real Batman, and he's been replaced several times already. Again with the one exception (and even with that I'd prefer them to treat the Nightwing IP seriously), no replacement is going to hold any appeal to me and I won't ever embrace them the way I do Bruce. It's just not new or exciting anymore. And I believe I stated earlier in this thread, I'd consider Nubia a preferable replacement for Diana over what we're probably getting, but I'd still rather have no replacement period when we've barely scratched the surface of her world's potential with her.

The argument also doesn't factor in what people are reading outside of superhero comics. There is more than just the big two, often times better books are found elsewhere. Someone complaining about their favorite hero being replaced might just be doing that: they want their favorite to stay. Meanwhile they support an indy book with more women, POC and LGBTQ characters as ensembles or leads with no issue because it's not like superhero legacy replacements are a thing with those.

I do think there are doubtless some assholes out there who have an issue with Sam specifically replacing Cap. But I think for many it's more the issue of Steve being replaced altogether and not getting to read about him in an ongoing basis, not specifically any issue with Sam as a character.

[kurenai24]

It's not stupid to call out what you perceive, what is stupid is acting like people who bring up how others react to race and gender are using "strawman arguments" b/c you're under some naive impression that people think like you do and are not consciously or unconsciously acting hostile to those types of changes for that very reason.

Also whether admitted to or not fans have a way of showing a pattern, unpredictable does not a comicbook fan make.

And before someone starts whining b/c they can't separate themselves from statements that are generalized, obviously not all comicbook fans have issues with race and gender. I mean people here have been pretty good at expressing what they like and especially what they don't like about this 5G thing.

Is Grace Choi back in continuity yet? That would be an interesting choice depending on how they reintroduce her (if they haven't already).

I used to think Jackson would replace Aquaman but now I'm not so sure. The current book could either be building up to it or making Jackson too much of the "obvious choice." Real head scratcher.

Green Arrow is historically important and is in the chart... They could replace him. I believe his daughter is also replacing him in the CW.

Would they be building up to it right now tho...

Comicsbeat seems to think there are little hints in regards to Jacksom but like you I think the choice would be too obvious.

If Anissa is an adult again, maybe they'll bring Grace back.

They re-establish Connor Hawke, but I'm not sure if they'd repeat him being Green Arrow again.

That would suck for the Grace character. I guess this would be the downside for 'c' or 'd' lists characters being in relationships; sometimes those relationships become a big appeal to that character, and the company may feel they can't really advance one unless the other is gonna advance too.

Did you read the YJ Issue with Cassie, Zeus and Despero???
YJ Issue 2.

I think its a SPOILER that Cassie will replace Diana.

Zeus wanted to give her the amulet, talked about Cassie becoming a member of the pantheon and her protecting the realm.

Same question as before, would they really have built this up from way back then? I always assumed this whole thing with Cassie would be addressed in Young Justice and not as a tool to launch her as the next Wonder Woman.

[phantom1592]

Also whether admitted to or not fans have a way of showing a pattern, predictable does not a comicbook fan make.

Which was kind of my point. The pattern is 'We like our iconic characters. We hate change'. DC in particular has a long history of replacing it's characters and then backtracking because fans hate it. Connor Hawke, Artemis, Azbats, Kyle Rayner caused a massive firestorm, Damian wayne, Jon Kent. All of these have their fans... and all of them supremely ticked off a massive group who wanted the previous incarnation to come back immediately. None of them were race or gender based complaints... but the fury was still there. The only true replacements that I can think off the top of my head that actually went smoothly and was accepted pretty quickly was Wally west and Tim Drake... and honeslty even the Wally writers had to put up with a ton of 'when is Barry coming back' in their letter columns and conventions until they did the Return of Barry Allen/Thawne fake out.

So yeah... pretty much Tim Drake then.

I also find that there are two types of replacement stories. One is just sideling a character people love to artificially push a new character, and sadly that's the route they go the most now days... The other is to make the replacement part of the original's story arc. The two big ones I can think of is John Stewart replacing Hal Jordan in the 80's and John Walker replacing Captain America. There new characters wearing the costume and doing the job... but the originals NEVER gave up the book. They were always around trying to learn how to live a life as a civilian or in a new identity. Cap split his book in half with Walker and Hal was the focus for most of the stories when he was ringless… and the arcs ended with them getting the job back.

Closest example I can think of in modern days is superior Spider-Man. It was obvious it was just a character storyline with Peter coming back... but the fans still ripped the concept to shreds and didn't give it a chance.

It's not stupid to call out what you perceive, what is stupid is acting like people who bring up how others react to race and gender are using "strawman arguments" b/c you're under some naive impression that people think like you do and are not consciously or unconsciously acting hostile to those types of changes for that very reason.

Which is also a matter of perception. Some people let their own perceptions color everyone else's. When there are two announcements and one says "We're replacing XXXXX character with a new version" and the crowd yells out. 'Don't do that we hate it!!!" and the second one is "We're replacing XXXXX character with a new versions who happens to be a Latino female!" and the crowd yells out.... "Don't do that, we hate it!!!!" It's disingenuous to claim that the hate was race and gender based.

[Masterff]

Same question as before, would they really have built this up from way back then? I always assumed this whole thing with Cassie would be addressed in Young Justice and not as a tool to launch her as the next Wonder Woman.

Difficult, because Titans of Tomorrow were in DC Rebirth and although they were from (seemingly) another continuity they were familiar with Jonathan and Wallace West.
This isnt so logical, because they didnt exist in Pre-Flashpoint, BUT FUTURE TIM showed them that Jonathan Samuel Kent becomes SUPERMAN.

So it could be that Conner and Bart became also Superman and Flash, but Cassie is the first one who replaces her mentor.

[SiegePerilous02]

It's not stupid to call out what you perceive, what is stupid is acting like people who bring up how others react to race and gender are using "strawman arguments" b/c you're under some naive impression that people think like you do and are not consciously or unconsciously acting hostile to those types of changes for that very reason.

Also whether admitted to or not fans have a way of showing a pattern, predictable does not a comicbook fan make.

And before someone starts whining b/c they can't separate themselves from statements that are generalized, obviously not all comicbook fans have issues with race and gender. I mean people here have been pretty good at expressing what they like and especially what they don't like about this 5G thing.

But like phantom1592 said, the pattern is generally fans being protective of their favorites and not wanting to see them replaced, regardless of who they are being replaced by. So it is disingenuous to assume it is due to race or gender reasons, even though there definitely are some idiots out there who have those as reasons.

If fans are showing a pattern, wouldn't that make them predictable? What does "predictable does not a comic book fan make" mean?

[Superlad93]

I've been kind of hung up on how Young Justice is supposed to function going forward with 5G's likely time skip.....

.....and it just hit me.

It's so damn obvious: do what the show did!

Bendis has flat out said that he'd be taking inspiration from the show in interesting way, and they'd be adding new members in ways that people wouldn't expect. Adding in new young heroes, and aging out our current ones makes the most sense. I then heard that apparently the Bat books editorial has plans for Tim and Stephanie, and that pretty much sealed it for me.

This allows Young Justice to keep in touch with the original members even though they're no longer teens, AND it allows for for the book to still be about teens by way of the "freshmen."

Honestly, I wouldn't be at all surprised if DC was in part inspired by Young Justice when they made 5G.

Also, calling it right now, Cassie is pregnant, and Bendis made it a plot point knowing 5G would have a built in time skip for it. I'm telling you. I'm calling it now.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I've been kind of hung up on how Young Justice is supposed to function going forward with 5G's likely time skip.....

.....and it just hit me.

It's so damn obvious: do what the show did!

Bendis has flat out said that he'd be taking inspiration from the show in interesting way, and they'd be adding new members in ways that people wouldn't expect. Adding in new young heroes, and aging out our current ones makes the most sense. I then heard that apparently the Bat books editorial has plans for Tim and Stephanie, and that pretty much sealed it for me.

This allows Young Justice to keep in touch with the original members even though they're no longer teens, AND it allows for for the book to still be about teens by way of the "freshmen."

Honestly, I wouldn't be at all surprised if DC was in part inspired by Young Justice when they made 5G.

Also, calling it right now, Cassie is pregnant, and Bendis made it a plot point knowing 5G would have a built in time skip for it. I'm telling you. I'm calling it now.

I could dig that. A 5 year time skip is pretty ambitious for DC.

Another poster Agent Z talked about using Koryak, Arthur's son from Peter David as a stand-in for Momoa's take on Aquaman.

[Superlad93]

I could dig that. A 5 year time skip is pretty ambitious for DC.

As DC fans we're functioning in pretty fascinating times right now.

I'm honestly excited for what the post time skip world looks like. I mean, it's got all of newness of a reboot, but it's directly built on the back of long established continuity. That's so cool to me. And I think between a lot of us growing up reading shonen manga (where time skips are common), Young Justice being successful, and a small independent film known as Avengers: Endgame doing mildly successful, I think it's something audiences today have the tools to wrap our heads around it pretty comfortable.