DC 5G: the Replacements

[FlashEarthOne]

I wouldn't be against it, but a part of me is like "do we really need even more new characters ?"

That is my thought exactly. I can't see this working longer term. It only complicates DC even further... I'll be shocked if it lasts two years.

[skyvolt2000]

I don't want another Batman (with the exception of Dick Grayson) be they black or white or whatever. I'm only interested in the real Batman, and he's been replaced several times already.

Guess what -don't read the book with someone other than Bruce as Batman. It's that simple. Someone who CLAIMS to be a comic book fan understands these folks do come back. Yet we did not see CIVIL behavior.

Gabby Rivera got DEATH THREATS.
Saladin Ahmed got DEATH THREATS.
Tom King got DEATH THREATS.
Johns got DEATH THREATS.
Kwanza Osajyefo and his WIFE got DEATH THREATS at home and at their JOBS.
Heather Antos, Rose Tran, Michael B Jordan, John Boyega, Leslie Jones, Mags Visaggio, Eve Ewing and many others don't want to hear it's not about race or gender.

Doom wore TONY'S armor and called himself Iron Man. NOBODY THREW A FIT. Riri Williams.......
No one threw a fit about War Machine Frank Castle or the VARIOUS folks calling themselves Venom.
No one threw fits about Dick or Jim calling themselves Batman.
If it was about not liking ANYONE taking a person's place-a LOT of those white guys seem to avoid the hate the POC & females gets.

What they get is CIVIL behavior. Someone picks up that books and READS it.
That leads to others trying the book and later PRAISING the run.

These are the folks who are KILLING the industry. Because this is who everybody sees. So we are not going it dismiss them.
Because why are folks who DON'T READ THE BOOKS throwing the fits?

If I don't read Hulk-I don't care WHO he is. Yet all these mystery fans show up.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

As DC fans we're functioning in pretty fascinating times right now.

I'm honestly excited for what the post time skip world looks like. I mean, it's got all of newness of a reboot, but it's directly built on the back of long established continuity. That's so cool to me. And I think between a lot of us growing up reading shonen manga (where time skips are common), Young Justice being successful, and a small independent film known as Avengers: Endgame doing mildly successful, I think it's something audiences today have the tools to wrap our heads around it pretty comfortable.

I'm glad to see someone being excited.

Thumbs up bro.

[Dataweaver]

Guess what -don't read the book with someone other than Bruce as Batman. It's that simple. Someone who CLAIMS to be a comic book fan understands these folks do come back. Yet we did not see CIVIL behavior.

Gabby Rivera got DEATH THREATS.
Saladin Ahmed got DEATH THREATS.
Tom King got DEATH THREATS.
Johns got DEATH THREATS.
Kwanza Osajyefo and his WIFE got DEATH THREATS at home and at their JOBS.
Heather Antos, Rose Tran, Michael B Jordan, John Boyega, Leslie Jones, Mags Visaggio, Eve Ewing and many others don't want to hear it's not about race or gender.

Doom wore TONY'S armor and called himself Iron Man. NOBODY THREW A FIT. Riri Williams.......
No one threw a fit about War Machine Frank Castle or the VARIOUS folks calling themselves Venom.
No one threw fits about Dick or Jim calling themselves Batman.
If it was about not liking ANYONE taking a person's place-a LOT of those white guys seem to avoid the hate the POC & females gets.

What they get is CIVIL behavior. Someone picks up that books and READS it.
That leads to others trying the book and later PRAISING the run.

These are the folks who are KILLING the industry. Because this is who everybody sees. So we are not going it dismiss them.
Because why are folks who DON'T READ THE BOOKS throwing the fits?

If I don't read Hulk-I don't care WHO he is. Yet all these mystery fans show up.

Conversely, don't conflate civil disagreement with throwing a fit or death threats.

Also: telling someone that if they don't like it, don't read it; and then saying that if they don't read it, they should shut up? That's the same as “if you don't like it, shut up.” and that's at least as bad as complaining is.

If someone's throwing a fit, it's okay to ask them to tone it down (or to call in the moderators, if they're really being abusive). But shouting them down or driving them away? That's toxic.

And finally: you don't get to tell me to shut up because someone else is being abusive. Writers are getting death threats? I'm sorry to hear that, and I hope the people making the threats are caught and held accountable. But I'm not one of them, and it's wrong to lump me in with them just because I'm also unhappy with some of the things the writers have been doing.

[Frostbite883]

Conversely, don't conflate civil disagreement with throwing a fit or death threats.

Pretty sure he's really smart enough to know the difference.

You don't get to tell me to shut up because someone else is being abusive. Writers are getting death threats? I'm sorry to hear that, and I hope the people making the threats are caught and held accountable. But I'm not one of them, and it's wrong to lump me in with them just because I'm also unhappy with some of the things the writers have been doing.

Real hoping you're someone who calls out people making death threats often rather than just be super focus on people bringing up how others are being toxic in however way they express it. If not, you're not really helping your case by not going further in make the comic book community better.

[Tzigone]

Pretty sure he's really smart enough to know the difference.
Real hoping you're someone who calls out people making death threats often rather than just be super focus on people bringing up how others are being toxic in however way they express it. If not, you're not really helping your case by not going further in make the comic book community better.

I think it's perfectly reasonable and valid to complain when you get lumped in with death-threat-makers for saying an idea is stupid or a person is crap writer or a character is characterized badly. This has happened so many times here when people complain about something - these extreme examples get trotted out with at least the implication we're like the people who do such things because we say we don't like something about comic books on a board devoted to discussing comic books. Do I call out death threat makers like I do the people who lump me in with them - no, I do not, because I don't see them. I'm on a moderated message board responding to other people who post here, not broadcasting to the world at large. Those people don't post death threats here (or they are removed if they do). I never see the threats. I don't doubt they exist, and yes, they should be addressed, but I'm not having a conversation with the people who make them, I'm having a conversation with the people who accuse me of being like them. I have no reason to even think they'd ever see anything I post.

[Jackalope89]

Guess what -don't read the book with someone other than Bruce as Batman. It's that simple. Someone who CLAIMS to be a comic book fan understands these folks do come back. Yet we did not see CIVIL behavior.

Gabby Rivera got DEATH THREATS.
Saladin Ahmed got DEATH THREATS.
Tom King got DEATH THREATS.
Johns got DEATH THREATS.
Kwanza Osajyefo and his WIFE got DEATH THREATS at home and at their JOBS.
Heather Antos, Rose Tran, Michael B Jordan, John Boyega, Leslie Jones, Mags Visaggio, Eve Ewing and many others don't want to hear it's not about race or gender.

Doom wore TONY'S armor and called himself Iron Man. NOBODY THREW A FIT. Riri Williams.......
No one threw a fit about War Machine Frank Castle or the VARIOUS folks calling themselves Venom.
No one threw fits about Dick or Jim calling themselves Batman.
If it was about not liking ANYONE taking a person's place-a LOT of those white guys seem to avoid the hate the POC & females gets.

What they get is CIVIL behavior. Someone picks up that books and READS it.
That leads to others trying the book and later PRAISING the run.

These are the folks who are KILLING the industry. Because this is who everybody sees. So we are not going it dismiss them.
Because why are folks who DON'T READ THE BOOKS throwing the fits?

If I don't read Hulk-I don't care WHO he is. Yet all these mystery fans show up.

As someone that has wanted change to the status quo of the main Leaguers...

This is NOT how I wanted it. Like Jon Kent's potential as a kid hero was ripped away for Bendis' own storytelling and very poor version of the character. And the other members are supposed to be ones that are "out of the norm".

For a company famous for its legacies, DC, on the comics side at least, is crap at handling them. Most of these characters already have a number of "family" members that would make for interesting stand-ins. Instead, random new characters are being tossed into the bucket and we're being told to like it.

I can't speak for others (though it certainly seems like it does NOT apply to them either), but jumping on the "racist/misogynist" bandwagon for those that don't like this, seems pretty over the top.

I never advocate death threats, even for poorly done work (and if I was reading comics at the time, you would be sure to hear ME complain about Jim Gordon suddenly throwing on the cape and cowl).

[Dataweaver]

And this was the other point that I wanted to hit: there seems to be a tendency in some circles of a presumption of bigotry: if you say anything critical about someone who might be a minority (female, person of color, LGBTQ+, etc.) — and recall that we don't yet know the majority of the substitutes, so we don't know how many of them are going to be minority characters — if you say anything critical that might be applied to a minority, then you're attacked as a racist, sexist, homophobe, and/or whatever other kind of bigot may be appropriate.

That's an ad hominem attack, and it has no place in civil debate.

Unlike Jackalope89, I was around during the DCYou era; and my reaction to Jim Gordon as Batman was a hard eye-roll — exactly the same as my reaction to Luke Fox as Batman. Heck, I had a similar reaction to Jean-Paul Valley becoming Batman back in the early 90s. In all three cases, my thought was “no way is this going to last”. I had a different reaction to Dick becoming Batman; but that was because I could actually see that working long-term: Dick had actually earned it. None of that had anything to do with the character's race.

Guess who my favorite Batgirl is? Not Barbara Gordon; I prefer her as Oracle (paralysis optional: while there's definitely an appeal to a wheelchair-bound superhero, I never considered it to be an essential part of her character). Okay; my favorite is actually Stephanie Brown — but not because she's white; rather, because she fought and scraped and struggled and (nearly) died for nearly two decades before she got the cowl: like Dick becoming Batman, Stephanie earned the right to be Batgirl. But my second favorite Batgirl, and it's a really close call, is Cassandra Caine. I loved her because of the idea of her: trained to be an assassin from birth, she rejected that path and took up the path of saving lives instead. How cool is that? Her race didn't even enter into consideration.

I liked Connor Hawke, the Green Arrow of the 90s. I doubt that G5 will tap him to be Ollie's replacement; but I'd be thrilled if they did. I will admit that his ethnicity factored into my opinion of him: specifically, I liked how his archery drew from sources more akin to Kyudo than to “Robin Hood”; it was a refreshingly different take on the notion of the “heroic archer”.

Long before Gal Godot starred as Wonder Woman, I was advocating for Wonder Woman to have more Mediterranean features. While I wouldn't want her to be a lesbian (because her romance with Steve Trevor is an important part of her character in my opinion), I have no problem with her being presented as bisexual; it's very much in keeping with her character.

And yet, because I expressed displeasure with how Bendis handled Riri Williams (but not how she has subsequently been handled), I've been called a racist and accused of not thinking for myself. Sorry; but no. Jumping straight to “bigot!”, or even insisting that someone prove to your satisfaction that they aren't a bigot, is exactly the wrong way to approach this.

Incidentally, who was the first one to bring up the issue of race in this thread? I really don't know, as there are a number of pages worth of messages that I haven't read. Did someone start arguing that G5 characters would mostly be minorities, and that that would be bad? Or was the start of it from someone like skyvolt2000, accusing people who were complaining about the G5 characters of being bigots? I'm willing to stand corrected if it turns out to be the former; but what I have seen of this thread has tended to make me suspect that it was the latter. Certainly, there's been a fair amount of “my reasons for not liking this aren't racist”; “yes, they are!” back and forth going on.

[Rac7d*]

Pretty sure he's really smart enough to know the difference.



Real hoping you're someone who calls out people making death threats often rather than just be super focus on people bringing up how others are being toxic in however way they express it. If not, you're not really helping your case by not going further in make the comic book community better.

the whole death threate thing is not comic exclusve, its anime, music television,

i blame twitter, it give the marginalized a voice, but gets abused to hell and back because people are not responsible for what the say, I miss the old days when you sent authors letter and they could choose to read it or burn it
oh well, there is no stopping that behavior

[Johnny]

Nevermind.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I'm curious about who they are gonna be but I'm not sure I'll pick any of them up.

[Cosmic Emerald 23]

Any news on who the new aquaman will be? This one I have literally no idea who's it's going to be, but I'm hoping it's Garth (I'm ok with kaldur also, but Garth is #1 pick).

[Cosmic Emerald 23]

I'm interested in seeing Luke Fox as Batman. I guess it's because he's like iron-batman beyond which I think is really cool and I had a slight interest in the character beforehand. Hopefully he's not Bruce Wayne 2.0, that would make the replacement even more unnecessary.

[skyvolt2000]

Or was the start of it from someone like skyvolt2000, accusing people who were complaining about the G5 characters of being bigots?

PLEASE show me where I said that.

Understand something generally THAT GROUP is the main GROUP who can't stop running their mouths. Everybody else has moved on.
Instead they go above and beyond what is deemed acceptable.

We are not talking about the folks who will not or will try these books. We are talking about the group who are going to make everyone's life HELL ON EARTH over a comic book.

My question to DC is why even bother doing this when you saw the HELL ON EARTH Marvel got? With comic book store owners calling for folks to be fired. With folks using it to monetize hate on Youtube including former DC employees. When Dc can't get the established POC already here right.

How does Luke Fox as Batman help Black Lightning? Who has a tv show. Why waste resources on Luke when that can go to Black Lighting? Is Luke going to be Batman on CW's Batwoman?
How does that beat Black Panther? Black Panther did not knock out Tony Stark and became Iron Panther and took over his book.

He got where he is because Marvel hired a writer in 1998 and the rest is history. A writer-who did NOT want to do the book. A writer who fought with editorial. No guest starts, crossovers, relaunches or variants unlike the current writer.

Why is that not being done here? Who in management is causing the issue?
The New Age Heroes books (aside from 2) last a year or more. 5 out of 8. Nobody pretending to be someone else. 16 trades. 2 years? Now heading to year 3.

If this mess lasts two years like NAH-why bother? A sales booster, backlash and then what? Luke Fox goes back to limbo?
Teen Green Lantern now has a larger set of enemies in EVERY OTHER LANTERN fan? Barry fans acting worst than normal? Another Superboy to anger Connor fans even more?

Is it that hard to invest in who you got? Hickman made a rule for X-Men no NEW folks. maybe Dc needs that rule in place.

[SiegePerilous02]

Guess what -don't read the book with someone other than Bruce as Batman. It's that simple. Someone who CLAIMS to be a comic book fan understands these folks do come back. Yet we did not see CIVIL behavior.

What, did you honestly expect me to throw down money I don't have and read the book and complain about a Batman that wasn't Bruce? I don't even buy books with Bruce in them if the direction doesn't catch my attention.

And please drop the whole "claiming to be a comic book fan" or "TRUE fans" you always bring up in these threads. Is there anyone who isn't actually a comic book fan who posts on here? Is there anyone actively making death threats on here, at least ones that don't immediately result in deletion of posts and bans (as they should)? Yes, we know these characters come back. Doesn't mean we're looking forward to the tedious waste of time until they do and aren't allowed to voice fatigue at this, especially if it is upending a direction we are currently enjoying or may cause further delays in a direction we want to see. Like Tzigone said, we wouldn't engage with them or condone that behavior if they were here even though there is no doubt they exist.

But death threats against creators, regardless of who it is coming from and who it aimed towards, is not a thing limited to comic book. Social media gives an easier outlet for all the crazies in the world. And there are a lot of them.

Conversely, don't conflate civil disagreement with throwing a fit or death threats.

Also: telling someone that if they don't like it, don't read it; and then saying that if they don't read it, they should shut up? That's the same as “if you don't like it, shut up.” and that's at least as bad as complaining is.

If someone's throwing a fit, it's okay to ask them to tone it down (or to call in the moderators, if they're really being abusive). But shouting them down or driving them away? That's toxic.

And finally: you don't get to tell me to shut up because someone else is being abusive. Writers are getting death threats? I'm sorry to hear that, and I hope the people making the threats are caught and held accountable. But I'm not one of them, and it's wrong to lump me in with them just because I'm also unhappy with some of the things the writers have been doing.

100% agreed.