DC 5G: the Replacements

[Sacred Knight]

No worries, I know. I just thought I'd elaborate on what I meant because you are right in that its a different set of circumstances. And no problem also qualifying "Jon fans" as "a lot of Jon fans".

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

To me, Luke wasn't driven by tragedy the same way Bruce is. He starts out Batwing looking for adventure and having a good time. He was in his early 20s so it felt like a coming of age story. He even had to hide being Batwing from his family.

The tragedy did strike later in the run because one of his sisters was kidnapped while the other overdosed on drugs. But I didn't see that referenced outside of the initial run so it could be worth checking in on as a subplot.

As a Batman, he might lean towards the whole "Batman is what I do- not who I am" idea at first. He had a focus on tech in the Tynion Detective Run and Batwing so we might see a sci-fi bent to his adventures.

He grew up in an upper-class black family so that might get touched upon. I can see Ridley touching upon how Gotham reacts to Batman being black.

[kurenai24]

I think a bigger issue is that (if I'm looking at their current book) they basically changed the whole YL generation back to pre graduation day, in the current incarnation she is just not really at a point where she could transition from Girl to Woman.

I don't think age would be a problem, I mean Teen Lantern is 13 or 11 and she's being considered for 5G Green Lantern, so she's either being aged up or she won't but age wouldn't be the thing holding Cassie back.

I do think Tim's generation will definitely be the generation we'll see the most out of in 5G.

I'm a fan of Far Sector so im ok with new characters taking over. I wouldn't mind Young Animal did some Far Sector spinoffs with new versions of the Flash etc.

I don't think they would have time now since 5G is taking off in 2021 and the planning stages seem to take long but I could definitely see some more DC characters in this line.

I don't believe this. You can very much tell just by interacting with his fans and listening to what they liked about him. I'm not a Jon fan but I've engaged with his fans very much (mostly arguing but still) and its not a Bendis thing. His fans specifically liked him being the young son of Superman. The appeal was the wide-eyed child learning the ropes by his famous father. Aging him once limits the guidance and dynamic the parents provide and a large part of their described enjoyment of the angle. Aging him again will remove it entirely. It'll turn things into a post-Crisis Ma and Pa/Clark dynamic and that was never the appeal to Jon's fans. I don't see where what writer it is weighs in. Its a conceptual disagreement. The fans who just plain dislike Bendis were the ones who just hated the idea on principle from the very announcement, without a single detail.

I was speaking generally so if it does not apply, then it won't, but I also mentioned that only half would change their tune, b/c I'm very aware that some are just gungho about kid!Jon.

As for the specific part about why it matters who the writer is, it doesn't take a genius to know that some fans are more open to an idea they dislike if it's a writer that they like and trust and this situation is no different.

To be clear, I had NEVER read Bendis before he came to DC and gave him a chance when he did. The entire direction he's taken Jon, not to mention the many other times he's written characters OOC, "Bendis speak" which I find annoying, and just his overall direction...

Good for you for enjoying a Marvel character that was created by Bendis. The character I enjoyed has basically been erased by Bendis for Clark Jr.

I mean I didn't accuse you of anything so I don't know why I got your relationship history with Bendis, and I didn't mention Miles for congratulations but b/c he's a prime example of what I was talking about.

[kurenai24]

Also don't forget that unlike Clark, Jon will have spent the majority of his life after 11 years old either in space, on another Earth, and in the far future. His perspective and the way he approaches a situation is likely to be different. That's actually already been shown with Jon coming up with the idea for the United Planets when neither Clark nor Kara had anything similar on their minds. And that idea was implied to have come from Jon breaking down the the base issues out in space to be similar to the base issues he's seen on Earth back in issue 7 of Superman.

And yes at the crux of his character is the feeling of needing to live up to a legacy and standard set by his parents (verbalized in issue 4 of Lois Lane, and in issue 7 of Superman). There's a level of baseline respect and reverence that nearly all characters (on Earth or around the galaxy) in Bendis' run have given Clark because of who he is and what he does. It's to the point where in issue 14 Clark assumes that he and his family are under arrest, but the high ranking Thanagarian official literally goes "what? No! You're Superman, of course you're not under arrest".

Will the same reverence be given to Jon? Should it be? How does he take it if it is or isn't? Back in issue 7 after a Green Lantern goes "hey looks it's the son of Superman" and "I owe your dad dozen favors", another GL goes "it would've been more impressive if it were actually Superman."

Also lets not forget that Jon will also have to navigate not only the newly formed United Planets, but also his dad being "President of Earth". Disagreeing with his father on things is now escalated to a galactic scale. Outside of being physically resembling his dad, he's a whole new beast.

Lol, this is definitely the whole pitch idea and not part. And this type of stuff is what's gonna separate Jon's from Clark's when writer's are handling Jon's personal story and character development.

[lemonpeace]

if Luke does become Batman, what are the odds they have Signal fill the Robin/Nightwing partner role in relation to him? it seems like the kind of on-the-nose thing they'd do if they're going the black Batman route; I mean if rumors are true they're going with Ridley, so visible blackness is probably at the table of the Luke Fox as Batman conversation. honestly I don't care how overt it is, the little kid in me would be all in on a black dynamic duo.

[Aahz]

if Luke does become Batman, what are the odds they have Signal fill the Robin/Nightwing partner role in relation to him? it seems like the kind of on-the-nose thing they'd do if they're going the black Batman route; I mean if rumors are true they're going with Ridley, so visible blackness is probably at the table of the Luke Fox as Batman conversation. honestly I don't care how overt it is, the little kid in me would be all in on a black dynamic duo.

Hard to say, Batman hasn't really had a regularly appearing partner in his main books since probaly the early or mid 90s.

If they give him a partner Duke seems like the best option, since almost every other Batfamily Charcter would turn Luke into the side kick.

[Shockingjustice]

if Luke does become Batman, what are the odds they have Signal fill the Robin/Nightwing partner role in relation to him? it seems like the kind of on-the-nose thing they'd do if they're going the black Batman route; I mean if rumors are true they're going with Ridley, so visible blackness is probably at the table of the Luke Fox as Batman conversation. honestly I don't care how overt it is, the little kid in me would be all in on a black dynamic duo.

I mean it is rare to see a black dynamic duo when DC doesn't like building support casts with it's minority characters. I still don't know who's important in Cyborg's life. He was written out of his co-owned book.

[Frontier]

if Luke does become Batman, what are the odds they have Signal fill the Robin/Nightwing partner role in relation to him? it seems like the kind of on-the-nose thing they'd do if they're going the black Batman route; I mean if rumors are true they're going with Ridley, so visible blackness is probably at the table of the Luke Fox as Batman conversation. honestly I don't care how overt it is, the little kid in me would be all in on a black dynamic duo.

I think Duke might be too old for it unless the timeline re-jiggers his age.

I think Luke should have original partners.

[Katana500]

I think Duke might be too old for it unless the timeline re-jiggers his age.

I think Luke should have original partners.

Tiffany could potentially work. She could be the right sidekick age

[lemonpeace]

I think Duke might be too old for it unless the timeline re-jiggers his age.

I think Luke should have original partners.

I don't think Batman needs to always drag a child into the field, especially considering he's done that to the point of parody (even in-universe). I think having a partner (a la Nightwing teaming up with Batman) in the field rather than a protege could work just as well if not better. DC doesn't need to build a new batfamily from scratch because Luke's Batman, he can have new original allies while sustaining previously established relationships.

[Frostbite883]

if Luke does become Batman, what are the odds they have Signal fill the Robin/Nightwing partner role in relation to him? it seems like the kind of on-the-nose thing they'd do if they're going the black Batman route; I mean if rumors are true they're going with Ridley, so visible blackness is probably at the table of the Luke Fox as Batman conversation. honestly I don't care how overt it is, the little kid in me would be all in on a black dynamic duo.

I would love to see that too someday.

[Frontier]

I don't think Batman needs to always drag a child into the field, especially considering he's done that to the point of parody (even in-universe). I think having a partner (a la Nightwing teaming up with Batman) in the field rather than a protege could work just as well if not better. DC doesn't need to build a new batfamily from scratch because Luke's Batman, he can have new original allies while sustaining previously established relationships.

I mean, the Batfamily is an important element of the mythos, so if Luke is going to be the "new" Batman I think he should have his own take on it and the established Batman conventions.

Batman having a partner in some form or another is also just as essential in my opinion. Whether they be a protege or not is a different story, but I think having a protege can be a good character building moment for a hero and showcase their stature and inspirational quality (not that I'm sure of Luke as a mentor, granted).

[leo619]

And my point is that it's hard to quantify how much the changes impacted sales at all with the very different comic markets both initiatives came out in.

The "newness" of the New 52 wasn't sustainable and neither was the idea of Rebirthing the DCU.

By comparison Fresh Start for Marvel seems to have been more consistent.

Except you originally did not state Rebirth wasn't sustainable. Your original comment attempt to paint New 52 changes as unsustainable but once Rebirth was introduced as less successful, you stated the changes were hard to quantify.
So by using your logic to claim it's hard to qualify how much of the changes impact says, it's impossible to state New 52 "newness" wasn't sustainable just like it's impossible to say Rebirth status quo was sustainable. Even Marvel's Fresh Start still hasn't changed marvel's market share too much. Marvel will occasionally have months where DC will release a book or event that gives them the edge for a few months or so, but ultimately Marvel either releases a book or new initiative that returns the scales. DC becomes competitive with New 52, Marvel releases Star Wars and ANAD.

DC should always be trying to reach as many demographics as they can. Frankly, that's what they seemed to be going for with Rebirth rather then wholesale going for "classic" over "new" fans.

R

Rebirth was far from reaching many demographics as possible. You only need to go to areas that focus more on new readers or diverse readers to see how those demographics were mostly turned off from Rebirth due to the primary focus to return to the Status Quo.

Compared to the roster that came before them it was definitely "back-to-basics," and the new Big Seven were pretty much the same aside from Cyborg taking Martian Manhunter's spot.

The previous roster didn't have to establish the foundation of the Justice League, hence why after a period of time, the justice league roster began to expand. And adding Cyborg as a founding member was initially huge. It's what allowed him to be showcase in the JL movie. For certain people, that may not seem like a big deal, but for others, it was major.

There haven't been any rumors, but with the extended timeline and the possibility of restoring Cyborg's Titans history, it seems like it has a high potential for happening. Cyborg's founding status is, at this point, the least relevant that it's ever been.

I highly doubt that. One of the purposes of 5g was to increase diversity in major roles, hence Luke Fox as batman. As such, Cyborg founding status is irrelevant currently because of Rebirth push to the status quo, but I'm expecting the reverse to happen with 5g, and Cyborg JL status be a much stronger point similar to New52 once it comes.

Compared to Post-Crisis, yeah, but for the most part it was a return to a more Golden Age-esque Superman initially before he became the standard version, and the for the most part the most noteworthy change was the Wonder Woman relationship.

Disagree, were the elements of Golden Age? Certainly, but the changes I presented indicate they definitely were taking superman into a different direction, and agree to disagree regarding the relationship.

But it was relevant to the point I was trying to make about the New 52.

So? You're trying to change the subject of what my original topic still makes the reply irrelevant. If the original topic was that New 52 was back to basic, and Wonder Woman Azzerallo arc was a clear indication of how New 52 wasn't back to basic, saying Wonder Woman's history reverted after that arc due to Rebirth doesn't change the fact that Wonder Woman's New 52 3 year history was anything but back to basic. Thus, the reply doesn't matter to the original point. Now you can attempt to make your own point, but that essentially just means you're talking to yourself if you can't stick with the original concept and the only one talking about this new point is yourself.

Even the points you illustrate to me for the New 52 indicate that they weren't that different.

I'll quote myself.

Keep telling yourself that, we'll agree to disagree.

[leo619]

First nobody is gonna accuse you of bigotry, you gave a clear and concise post.

Second, I think you're right in saying that DC are the ones making the decisions first and foremost and hey, if they 100% cared about what the fans think they probably wouldn't be going ahead with this 5G thing at all, but there is no company on earth that doesn't care about their image and once this 5G thing starts it'll probably reach beyond the comic media and so their choices will be important. Should diversity be the defining reason why certain characters are picked ...no, but it might be something at the forefront of the decisions.

SecretWarrior is right in that the miliage will vary, and hey BC never said anything about diverse, they just said young so maybe you're more right than I thought.

Maybe for me it's time to not think about what these characters are gonna look like on a team aesthetically but what they may be bringing to the table under these iconic mantles that's different than what their OG's have done.

At the same time, that's where content like his statements are often under scrutiny, because you can ask anyone who specifically looks for diversity and no one, including the creators themselves, would select a character ONLY because of their ethnicity. But this statement has been repeated numerous times. It's not new news. But what's not wrong is requesting or having diversity being one of the key elements that you're looking for in a character. Huge difference between "Key", being a defining factor, and "solo", meaning only factor. And the fact that using diversity as a strong component for selecting a character somehow brings up red flags makes sense why certain comments go under scrutiny.

[iron chimp]

Going up a few % is huge for DC, especially to the point to where they were literally neck and neck with Marvel in 2012. Unless someone was somehow expecting DC for the entire year to be doing in 40% percentile (which I don't think has ever happened) New 52 during the initial stages was definitely a selling success. Then Star Wars and ANAD stopped their momentum lol.

Relaunching tec batman and action and only gaining 2% extra market share was a massive failure. Dc gained 2% share and marvel ended up losing 7% - image/ walking dead / saga took more off marvel than Dc did.