DC 5G: the Replacements

[Hawkgirl_70]

I'm just not remotely interested in reading a Superman that isn't Clark Kent, a Batman that isn't Bruce Wayne, and/or a Wonder Woman that isn't Diana Prince.

Sorry, folks. Maybe that makes me part of the problem with comics right now, and maybe it'll be wildly successful despite my lack of interest. I saw Marvel try this a few years ago and it didn't work, so I have no reason to believe it'll work for DC. But if this is the direction they want to go in more power to them. I just won't be a part of it.

Well said and I am 100% with you.
Not interested in DiDio's latest thing to alienate even more older, loyal readers.

[iron chimp]

The behemoth from beyond the sun will have been found to have manipulated the dimensional tectonic plate in 5 years time creating a transmogriphied universe and it will all have been a dream and everything is back the way it was.

They are completely out of ideas.

[Frontier]

It’s not even really a problem if we get stories set in the past. Robin Year One is one of my favourite stories in all media, and I’d love to see more stories like that. The timeline facilitates this sort of approach, since you could pick any Gen and write a new Superman story. Each Gen features Superman with a different status quo because he’s allowed to develop now. There’s a lot you can do with that.

But the "present day" stories are still probably going to matter the most. And not to mention figuring out how the timeline works for the supporting cast and all other characters.

Wonder Woman's going to need yet another origin and supporting cast revamp.

Surprising isn’t the same as illogical. Luke makes sense. Jon makes sense. Neither is obvious because Dick, Tim, and Conner exist and Jon shouldn’t be an adult by then. Jackson is not obvious because Garth exists. They’re not suddenly going to make Vulko’s son the new Aquaman lol.

Jon makes sense but do we really need to age him up again?

I'm not sure how Luke makes sense. He's like the most divorced from Bruce of all the Batfamily and I don't think he would actually want to be Batman. He's more of an "on my own terms" kind of guy.

Dick Grayson is a Gen 2 character. By publication history, he could be a Gen 1 character. The new faces of Gen 3 are the YJ characters, while the JLA and the Titans are the old guard. It’s still the same going into Gen 4. In Gen 5, it makes the most sense for Tim and the others to become the older, experienced heroes, while the younger Gen 4 characters like Damian and Jon get to be more prominent. When Wally, Roy, Garth, and Donna would still be parents if DC wasn’t terrible, it’s hard to accept them as young adults when they should be parents again with the new timeline. They had their time of prominence, even if they have been treated incredibly poorly for the past two decades.

Hate it or love it, Dick and the others are Golden and Silver Age characters. We’re not in the 40’s, 60’s, or the 80’s anymore. There’s still plenty of stories to tell with Dick, Wally, Donna, etc., but a bunch of straight white characters from decades ago don’t need to be the focus anymore. The same of course goes for the JLA and even moreso for the JSA. Their stories can be set in the past.

Why not just let them be the focus of their own stories? I'm not sure why we need to act like they need to be retired.

All they’d need to do is stop publishing books set in the present and start focusing on stories set in the past until they come up with “better” ideas for the present. There are no bad characters, just bad stories. Maybe it’ll never work and it’ll all end up a failure, but I’d rather they try than stick to doing the same thing they’ve been doing for decades. “Replacements” never work, successors tend to stick around for quite a while (Barry, Hal, Kyle, even Wally).

Man, that really makes DC sound screwed up .

Well, replacements kind of are successors unless you don't acknowledge the original.

[Marvel/DC Fan]

This has pretty much dampened my enthusiasm for DC comics. For me, they might as well call it Crisis: Jumping off Point.

[SiegePerilous02]

I'm not talking about outside media. I'm talking about the comic books themselves.

Marvel had and has had the benefit of a larger fan base and more media exposure, and they couldn't make it work within the comics which was why everyone went back to their original roles. So I have no reason to believe it'll work with DC.

Like I said, maybe it'll work, and it's their business so they can do whatever they like. I just don't have an interest in reading a different Superman after collecting his comic books for 30 years. Again, that probably makes me part of the problem and the type of fan that comics don't need anymore. I'm fine with that. This will just be the motivation I need to move on.

No, I agree. I have no interest in seeing anyone else take on the iconic roles for these characters, or at least most of them. It's a narrative tool that can be used wonderfully at times (Wally West being the best example), but to blanket apply it to all of the main DCU properties is absurd. These characters are not new, but like you said Superman has been around for 80 years and he was already "middle aged" when you met him 30 years ago. A lot of them (including Batman, Wonder Woman, and most of the MCU's Silver Age white dudes) have no problem getting new audiences, so it's not as if they are out of date. I'm not interested in an interchangeable title or costume that can be worn by anyone, in a lot of these cases the mantle is intrinsically linked to the character.

The wider problem is that comic books are an expensive niche hobby that have to compete with more forms of entertainment than they used to. Comic books being cheap and available in grocery stores or pharmacies are a thing of the past, and that's when they were their most successful and hooked new fans. If they had that set up they could even experiment with creating NEW brands and characters, especially with a more diverse lineup and ensure that those brands had a chance of lasting and creating lifelong fans. The older brands could use the boost as well. But the lack of that way of delivering them and the lack of any drive to CREATE is the real harm of the industry. And it's not limited to comics. Hollywood hasn't had many original ideas lately either. It's all reboots and nostalgia grabs. People don't want to see their icons messed with and that is fair, but there is also not much drive in creating wholly new icons either.

[Sacred Knight]

This has pretty much dampened my enthusiasm for DC comics. For me, they might as well call it Crisis: Jumping off Point.

Spot on. I have nothing to look forward to now even with the stuff I'm still reading knowing in a season's time or so my characters will be leaving.

I mean, if this turns out wrong as all get-out, that'll be on me for believing a rumor but as for now I do believe it as I trust the source.

Well said and I am 100% with you.
Not interested in DiDio's latest thing to alienate even more older, loyal readers.

Thing is, this doesn't just alienate older readers. It alienates anyone who is a fan of Clark Kent, of Princess Diana of Themyscira, of Bruce Wayne, etc. And that's not at all limited to older fans. The only potential appeal to this is the reason All New, All Different Marvel failed, as its a mythical market: the illusive brand new, diversity seeking crowd. It doesn't exist, not in this way. Plenty of fans want more diversity, but not like this, not via replacement. They want new stuff to consume with diverse casts without swapping out the classics. That's how the comics market operates, its been proven now. Seeking a mythical base has already failed once. Its destined to fail again and the only question for me is, do I have it in me to wait around again? I don't think I do. I'm tired of this hobby being more about waiting for the bad ideas to stop as opposed to just enjoying what I'm doing.

[Tzigone]

They want new stuff to consume with diverse casts without swapping out the classics.

I'd love that. Particularly if the newbies aren't attached to an existing "family." It would be fresher.

[Johnny]

What's funny is Bendis goes to DC and suddenly we hear things about an initiative of replacing the classic versions with new characters. lol It's kind of hard to believe he doesn't have a hand in this, if true.

[Sacred Knight]

I'd love that. Particularly if the newbies aren't attached to an existing "family." It would be fresher.

I'm not saying all these swaps are going to be people of color, I mean, Jonathan sure isn't. But we already know that's the main motivating factor behind Batman's swap. So I won't be surprised at all to find out most of the replacements are. It'll be a race and gender switch largely with a few exceptions. And it just makes me laugh considering DC has an original cast of badass characters that they're just sitting on in Milestone. Whom happen to all be POC. You'll piss everyone off with an unrecognizable but diverse Justice League that no one will want. When you could give us Justice League and Blood Syndicate.

[kingaliencracker]

Spot on. I have nothing to look forward to now even with the stuff I'm still reading knowing in a season's time or so my characters will be leaving.

I mean, if this turns out wrong as all get-out, that'll be on me for believing a rumor but as for now I do believe it as I trust the source.


Thing is, this doesn't just alienate older readers. It alienates anyone who is a fan of Clark Kent, of Princess Diana of Themyscira, of Bruce Wayne, etc. And that's not at all limited to older fans. The only potential appeal to this is the reason All New, All Different Marvel failed, as its a mythical market: the illusive brand new, diversity seeking crowd. It doesn't exist, not in this way. Plenty of fans want more diversity, but not like this, not via replacement. They want new stuff to consume with diverse casts without swapping out the classics. That's how the comics market operates, its been proven now. Seeking a mythical base has already failed once. Its destined to fail again and the only question for me is, do I have it in me to wait around again? I don't think I do. I'm tired of this hobby being more about waiting for the bad ideas to stop as opposed to just enjoying what I'm doing.

Well, and in the case of Jon Kent replacing Clark as Superman, you're not even replacing him with a diverse character. He looks just like a young Clark aka Superboy. So what stories are you going to be able to tell that are more exciting or vastly different with Jon in the role versus Clark, or that you can't tell with him being Superboy?

Again, maybe I'm the old "get off my lawn" guard that needs to be phased out for comics to go on. I'm fine with that. There's plenty of old content that can keep me busy for years and years. I'm just not going to read Superman stories that doesn't include Superman.

[Vordan]

Spot on. I have nothing to look forward to now even with the stuff I'm still reading knowing in a season's time or so my characters will be leaving.

I mean, if this turns out wrong as all get-out, that'll be on me for believing a rumor but as for now I do believe it as I trust the source.


Thing is, this doesn't just alienate older readers. It alienates anyone who is a fan of Clark Kent, of Princess Diana of Themyscira, of Bruce Wayne, etc. And that's not at all limited to older fans. The only potential appeal to this is the reason All New, All Different Marvel failed, as its a mythical market: the illusive brand new, diversity seeking crowd. It doesn't exist, not in this way. Plenty of fans want more diversity, but not like this, not via replacement. They want new stuff to consume with diverse casts without swapping out the classics. That's how the comics market operates, its been proven now. Seeking a mythical base has already failed once. Its destined to fail again and the only question for me is, do I have it in me to wait around again? I don't think I do. I'm tired of this hobby being more about waiting for the bad ideas to stop as opposed to just enjoying what I'm doing.

No they don’t, that’s just flat out not true. The New Age of Heroes flopped for that very reason. People don’t want new heroes with new mantles and sometimes swapping out older heroes who tend to be straight white guys for newer heroes who tend to be diverse does work. Jaime Reyes has supplanted Ted Kord as Blue Beetle after all. But replacing ALL your main heroes at once is most likely going to flop.

[Sacred Knight]

Indeed perhaps I misspoke and made it too simple cut and dry. What I mean is, that if you're going to do diverse, that's the way to try. That's not to say its easy. In this market its hard to accomplish and find breakouts regardless of race/gender. But when you hit, its welcome. And that's okay. It takes swings and misses. For every NAOH, you find a Jaimie Reyes and a Jessica Cruz and Simon Baz.

This? This is not only cheap but its a proven failure of a methodology.

[Tzigone]

And it just makes me laugh considering DC has an original cast of badass characters that they're just sitting on in Milestone.

I thought I read they were limited on what they could do with Milestone characters because of legal issues? Or is that just in other media?

[kingaliencracker]

What's funny is Bendis goes to DC and suddenly we hear things about an initiative of replacing the classic versions with new characters. lol It's kind of hard to believe he doesn't have a hand in this, if true.

And part of the reason why Bendis left Marvel to begin with was because the attempt failed and Marvel quickly double backed on it, much to his frustration. I read he was really upset when Marvel changed the title of "Spider-Man" to "Miles Morales: Spider-Man".

Like I said, it is what it is. DC owns these characters. I can be mad or frustrated, but I'll find something else to move on to.

[Vordan]

I don't think its untrue, I just think its just not easy to accomplish and find breakouts. Its hard to find the stuff that truly catches on. And that's okay. It takes swings and misses.

When Riri went from headlining “Iron Man” to headlining “Ironheart” her sales were far worse off. I guarantee you if you took “Spider-Man” away from Miles and made him “Spider-Boy” or “Arachnid Man” his sales would drop also. Trying to launch new diverse characters without the benefit of the mantles tends to fail more often than race-swapping characters. The market for new characters from the Big 2, at least in solos, is absolutely terrible right now.

Jane Thor for example sells far less as “Valkyrie” than she did as Thor. Why? Aaron and Ewing are writing her, she’s got a good artist, why isn’t she selling as well? Because now she’s not the “main character” anymore.