DC 5G: the Replacements

[Frontier]

Just heard that Kingdom Come is apparently set specifically in, you guessed it, the year 2020.

Can someone confirm that for me?

If that's true then it looks like we just got a pretty sizable clue for the inspiration behind this idea. Another little interesting bit is that Kingdom Come was also published in 1996. Our timeline puts the present day for our heroes at 1997 at Gen 4.

Is the idea here that this the optimistic version of Kingdom Come where the next generation of young heroes aren't an immediately bad and chaotic thing?

I mean, it all kind of checks out and lines up with DC's normal MO, right? They're taking one of their most popular stories ever, copying it into continuity, and going HAM. This line of thinking is literally why Doomsday Clock was created. I think this is it. Even the ages fit because the Superman of Kingdom Come is the post-crisis 86 Superman who starts out when he's 25 or 26. Age that up to the year 2020 and he's 59 to 60 years old just like the new timeline.

Kingdom Come 2.0: But This Time It's Optimistic. 5G solved.

It could be the most Cosmic of Coincidences...which is kind of amazing, in and of itself .

[Superlad93]

It could be the most Cosmic of Coincidences...which is kind of amazing, in and of itself .

I dunno, man! You know DC. This is crazy, super, mega possible. These are the guys who just killed off Doctor Manhattan after having Superman essentially go "but what if you we're a dick, tho?" and Manhattan proceeding to kill all the ambiguity of Watchmen's ending and leaving us with what is basically the combined love child of Manhattan, Superman, and two OCs.

DC would do this! lol

[Ascended]

So then she'd have at least 10 years of unseen history add to her? But she clearly starts in generation 4 and is 17 prior to that. When 5G hits Tim, Conner, Cassie, and Bart will reflect something closer to their publication age, and according to the (currently stressed upon that it's not the accurate of what we will get) timeline they'll be in their late late 20s to around 30 during gen 4 (what we are now in) with Naomi being 17.

The idea may be to have Jinny, Naomi, and Teen lantern be the new big 3 of Young Justice, maybe, when the others grow up after having the full weight of their history put back into them?

And given the fact that it's apparently 1997 in the DCU (the bomb dropped in 45 and the timeline starts at 38), it seems our 5G replacements may be the heroes of the new millennium in the DC version of the year 2000. So I'm guessing the only actual forward moving time skip will be just 3 to 4 years (like I assumed from the start...but not like this lol). That would also mean Superman's presidency is either in its last year on it's just done.

.....

Why is it only the 90's in the DCU? That doesn't track at all; we've got characters using smart phones.

I've said it before, I'm not paying much attention to the rumor mill on this. Care to fill me in, if you've got the time and gumption? If it's a lot of info, and you don't wanna clutter the thread, just send a PM.

[Superlad93]

.....

Why is it only the 90's in the DCU? That doesn't track at all; we've got characters using smart phones.

I've said it before, I'm not paying much attention to the rumor mill on this. Care to fill me in, if you've got the time and gumption? If it's a lot of info, and you don't wanna clutter the thread, just send a PM.

*inhales deeply* okay. Full disclosure, this is pretty dumb.

Basically it's all going off those timelines we got a bit ago. Gen1 operates on a 25 year scale, Gen 2 is 15, Gen 3 is 15, and Gen 4 (the one we are in right now) is 5 years. In gen 1 at year 8 we see that the atomic bomb is dropped, and before that in year 5 we see that Wonder Woman and the JSA join WWII. So that would make year 8 1945 and year 5 1942. That also means Clark lands in 1938. Basically after 1945 (because that's our most hard confirmed real world date) you just add on all the years in each gen to 1945 and that leaves you with 1997 by "today".

Note: gen 1 is listed as having 24 years, but it has 25 space. Either one is typo or someone's not great at using Excel. If it's the former then Clark is 59 and Bruce is 54. If not then Clark is 60 and Bruce is 55. Either way their both Kingdom Come age.

As for your question about smart phones and stuff like that? Well, the answer --like everything DC related these days-- is Watchmen. Meaning that it's very, very likely that the internal logic at DC is that because of the dawn of the superhero and super smart people the DCU just got things early. Like how in Watchmen because of Ozy and Manhattan they were more advanced than reasonable for the 80s.

It's basically what quite a few people have always either complained about or just hoped to one day see: a DCU that's deeply changed by super aliens and Lex Luther being a thing.

"But that's dumb as rocks, Superlad! Why did it HAVE to start in the 30s?" you ask. You want my honest answer that I basically *know* DC is going with? It's the age old Who Should Come First debate. They want the JSA to be part of DC history, but they also want to pay their respects to Superman (thus landing in 1938), BUT their also really digging that Wonder Woman movie and how she's now their first hero on film, BUT the JSA's whole point is being from the 40s. The solution? Wonder Woman is the first hero, Superman lands on the VERY same year, Wonder Woman joins the JSA only 2 years later, and the year before the JSA forms literally all of its members start up.

So now DC has finally and truly taken the whole "the Marvel Universe is the world outside your window" thing to heart. They've gone in the complete other direct. Now it doesn't even have to be the same decade as the real world apparently.

Neat, huh?

[sifighter]

You know what would probably really help with this 5G timeline thing, is if like Marvel DC just put out a 4 week monthly limited series or a rebirth request one-shot about the current history/timeline of the DC universe and how it then ends with the present 5G. Basically one giant 0 issue or whatever you want to call it and lay out your plan, helps save a lot of trouble of trying to determine the timeline.

[Dataweaver]

Wow....

I mean, I said they're be a time skip, but damn lol

I have so, so many questions now. But I'm interested in how they go about this, and I'll never ever be mad when a big new push like this is allowed "prep work" in anyway close to the same way House of X got.

Note that “aged up” doesn't necessarily mean “time skip”. It's possible that the premise is that time in the DCU has been a mess for decades due to the various Crises, and that the next one puts everyone's ages back to something closer to what they “ought to be”.

My main reaction to the article was that “the plans are in flux again”, and “the timeline that got released wasn't ready yet”. I'm also recalling how comments regarding Doomsday Clock have shifted from “it's basically self-contained, and no longer has any relation to The stories the rest of us are telling” to “we love what Johns has done in Doomsday Clock, and we're fully embracing it” — or something to that effect. I'm wondering if that's part of what's going on: they're rethinking their plans concerning 5G in light of what Johns established in DDC about the nature of the Metaverse.

In particular, I'm wondering if they're planning on adopting the notion of Superman (and other) origins periodically leaping forward in time.

[Superlad93]

Note that “aged up” doesn't necessarily mean “time skip”. It's possible that the premise is that time in the DCU has been a mess for decades due to the various Crises, and that the next one puts everyone's ages back to something closer to what they “ought to be”.

If the timeline is to be take for what it seems after you remove the continuity shifts like crisis and flashpoint, then they started in 1938, and it's now 1997 for them. If that's the idea, then I feel like it makes a ton of sense for our new 5G heroes to be the heroes of DC's 21st century heroes if Clark, Bruce, and Diana were the heroes of the 20th century.

So that's a relatively quick 3 year time jump to the year 2000 in DC's time. That also pretty neatly makes Jon Kent a young adult of 20 to 21, puts Superman in his last year as President of Earth (if it works like the US president), slightly ages characters like Naomi and Teen Lantern, but doesn't age the 20th century heroes too much more (Clark being 63, Bruce 58, and Tim's generation being early 30s)

The way I see it, I'm guessing the plan is for them all to be aware of the change in their histories, so you do a relatively small time skip that's just long and short enough to see the world acclimated to this new normal with our 5G heroes ready to pick up. That's how I see it anyway.

[manwhohaseverything]

I wonder What are they going to do with dick grayson, wally west.. Etc- the titans generation. I don't want them playing second to this justice league,as well.how old will the likes of beacon, maya, damian.. Etc be?
Someone posted a earth2020 pic with grandson of superman "kalel kent" taking over. I wonder how much that is going to influence jon's run as superman.

[kilderkin]

I have certain DC characters I follow and enjoy reading when the writing is good. I'm not about to suddenly start buying a bunch of substitutes in their place. 5G as an alternative might be interesting, but 5G as a replacement and the main DC universe going forward is something I have no interest in and will not be buying.

This is my position exactly

[Superlad93]

how old will the likes of beacon, maya, damian.. Etc be?

Kathy's around Jon's age so she'll be 12 once everyone gets their years back. They've actually been very accurate with Jon's age before he left for space given the fact that he was 11. If there's a skip forward taking the DCU from 1997 to 2000 or 2001 then she'll be 15 or 16. The same can be applied to Lor-Zod. I'm really staring to think he'll be our new Superboy given he'll be the only one of age.

When Damian gets his years back he'll actually be 15 rather than 13 (like how Wallace will be 20 rather than a teen). Like Jon, and Wallace, we know his age for pretty much certain because the timeline shows the exact year he is born. If they skip forward 3 or 4 years then that'll make Damian 18 or 19 (and Wallace 23 or 24 for comparison). And that'll only put a 2 year difference in Jon and Damian's ages.

No idea how old Maya is, but if it's comparable to Damian, then she'll also be around his age.

Someone posted a earth2020 pic with grandson of superman "kalel kent" taking over. I wonder how much that is going to influence jon's run as superman.

Probably not much given the fact that on January 1st people seemed to tweet this at Bendis, and while he got a kick out of it, he had no idea what story that was from. So I doubt it'll mean much.

[voidox]

I have certain DC characters I follow and enjoy reading when the writing is good. I'm not about to suddenly start buying a bunch of substitutes in their place. 5G as an alternative might be interesting, but 5G as a replacement and the main DC universe going forward is something I have no interest in and will not be buying.

ya, like for many others, so much this.

The way in which DC is expanding 5G from what it originally was going to be, is really disheartening to see. And it is 100% going to negatively affect sales and interest with how 5G is being setup as the new main universe :/

And a big reason as to why is how almost all the (rumored) choices to replace the current heroes.... are bad to meh at best. Also some of the replacement choices are just absolutely stupid seeing as how there are better characters around to take up the mantles AND are characters people would actually want to see take up the role. Many people in various places have made this same point on the replacements, but ya, 5G would be much more welcomed and interesting if DC had been smart and chosen the legacy characters that are right there and ready to take over the various mantles.

I don't like the idea of every DC hero being part of a lineage, every character's name becoming a job title, every new hero's origin being "I inherited a costume and/or powers from another hero".

ya, this is a really good point that I really agree with. Seems like almost every hero is now going to have this lineage and basically become a job title and I don't like that at all.

I still have my doubts about suddenly aging everyone up. What happens if 5G doesn't do well? Will they reset everyone's ages and reboot everything again?

most likely, ya... it'll be some other crisis or something that'll leave us back to the main heroes back to their prime.

The simple reality is that people want to read Bruce Wayne as Batman, Diana as Wonder Women, Clark as Superman, Barry/Wally as Flash, Arthur as Aquaman, J'onn as MM and so on. Especially with how random and unknown these replacements are, they are never going to be able to carry the DC lineup the way the originals can.

I mean, just look at how so many people hated a lot of the new-52 changes done to the same OG characters. Sure there were many other issues with new-52, but some of the main problems people had were the changes to character histories, personalities, stories and so on. DC needed a literal rebirth to get things back to old for people to be on-board again. Does DiDio really think this entire lineup change is going to have any chance of being better? :/

watch how the sales on the Batman comic will drop off a cliff from topping (usually the main batman comic is near top 5/10 consistently) the comic industry sales every month once we move past the initial reveal/introduction of 5G and people are left with Fox instead of Bruce. Same **** is going to happen to almost every replacement hero.

Not only that, but it seems like the whole editorial at DC seem really conflicted at the moment. For something like this to work, they needed everyone to be on the same page, and it doesn't look like that will be the case.

well, more bad news for 5G. Not only are fans mixed on this entire thing (and even those positive about 5G still have reservations and doubts), DC itself is not properly on-board for this change... sigh, how much longer are we going to be stuck with DiDio in charge -_-

__________________________________________________ ________

Marvel already has very few actual good comics going on right now, as does DC... but once 5G drops, DC is going to have even less to offer... which basically means almost nothing to offer. I always was a manga reader along with my comics, though muuuch more manga in recent years thanks to idiocy from people in charge of both companies, but it might soon be time to just completely switch to manga for my reading hobby (cept for the few good comics) till this **** blows over~

[kilderkin]

ya, like for many others, so much this.

The way in which DC is expanding 5G from what it originally was going to be, is really disheartening to see. And it is 100% going to negatively affect sales and interest with how 5G is being setup as the new main universe :/

And a big reason as to why is how almost all the (rumored) choices to replace the current heroes.... are bad to meh at best. Also some of the replacement choices are just absolutely stupid seeing as how there are better characters around to take up the mantles AND are characters people would actually want to see take up the role. Many people in various places have made this same point on the replacements, but ya, 5G would be much more welcomed and interesting if DC had been smart and chosen the legacy characters that are right there and ready to take over the various mantles.



ya, this is a really good point that I really agree with. Seems like almost every hero is now going to have this lineage and basically become a job title and I don't like that at all.



most likely, ya... it'll be some other crisis or something that'll leave us back to the main heroes back to their prime.

The simple reality is that people want to read Bruce Wayne as Batman, Diana as Wonder Women, Clark as Superman, Barry/Wally as Flash, Arthur as Aquaman, J'onn as MM and so on. Especially with how random and unknown these replacements are, they are never going to be able to carry the DC lineup the way the originals can.

I mean, just look at how so many people hated a lot of the new-52 changes done to the same OG characters. Sure there were many other issues with new-52, but some of the main problems people had were the changes to character histories, personalities, stories and so on. DC needed a literal rebirth to get things back to old for people to be on-board again. Does DiDio really think this entire lineup change is going to have any chance of being better? :/

watch how the sales on the Batman comic will drop off a cliff from topping (usually the main batman comic is near top 5/10 consistently) the comic industry sales every month once we move past the initial reveal/introduction of 5G and people are left with Fox instead of Bruce. Same **** is going to happen to almost every replacement hero.



well, more bad news for 5G. Not only are fans mixed on this entire thing (and even those positive about 5G still have reservations and doubts), DC itself is not properly on-board for this change... sigh, how much longer are we going to be stuck with DiDio in charge -_-

__________________________________________________ ________

Marvel already has very few actual good comics going on right now, as does DC... but once 5G drops, DC is going to have even less to offer... which basically means almost nothing to offer. I always was a manga reader along with my comics, though muuuch more manga in recent years thanks to idiocy from people in charge of both companies, but it might soon be time to just completely switch to manga for my reading hobby (cept for the few good comics) till this **** blows over~

Any links to where you've heard this about 5g

I'd like to have a look

Thanks

[astro@work]

I'm really ok with Diana as the 1st hero, and Diana and the JSA operating the 40's.
Diana is immortal and can retreat to PI for breaks between eras.
The JSA has been tied to WWII for multiple reasons, and story has explained how a few of them can still operate in the modern era.
(Alan=immortal via green flame, Carter=reincarnation, Jay=Speed force, Ted=nine lives).
Only Steve Trevor needs a new reason as to how he is still around and young, or just becomes limited to modern era only.

Superman landing in 1938 becomes problematic though. If Lois existed all the way back and first met Clark circa 1958, this puts her around 85 years old.
Not much time left and makes Jon much older if she had him as a late-in-life baby. Conversely, if you take Lois out of the early days to keep her younger
it drastically rewrites a lot of Superman's early stuff (but makes Jon's birth possible). Superman has always been written to age much slower, so that in itself isn't a real issue. As long as you leave the Kents dead, you don't need to explain them running around in their 100's. And Supergirl has debuted several times now, so keep the debut that makes her the youngest.

Batman has issues similar to Clark with his supporting cast. Bruce can be a bit younger if he's had a dip in Rhas Al Ghul's pits. But unless Bruce held a swim party there, much of his supporting cast ages out pretty quickly...is Selena 60? Dick 50? Barbara 45? Tim 40? I don't want any of that. (Alfred is already dead, so not a problem).

As for reader acceptance of the new status quo, it does beg the question whether current sales are high enough to allow a dip in sales when all the newbies debut.
Even if they get an initial bump (likely) a quick dropoff after could permanently hurt the brand. Keeping Diana/Bruce/Clark on standby for a quick return would be the smartest thing (versus killing them off) if things go South. Similarly, if you keep Barry in the speed force and lose Hal in a time warp or something this would facilitate a quick return if needed.

Honestly, the whole 5G thing seems to be a 360 from the previous attitude DC always had of NOT moving the characters forward too quickly.
That part of it interests me. My complaint throughout most of nu52/Rebirth has been that the characters seem stuck in a status quo.
I want them to move forward, and am a little irked that Barry & Iris still aren't married, Arthur and Mera still not married, etc.
The parts I've liked the most are Damien and Jon, and the potential Bruce/Selena marriage because it DOES allow for forward momentum.
It's part of why the JSA has always been my favorite because they DO move forward in their lives and aren't permanently stuck at 29.
SO I guess the question for me is whether DC can stick the landing and keep me reading.

[Superlad93]

Where'd you get idea that Clark meets Lois in 1958? Or that she's 85 years old? It's not their actual publication age. It's closer, yeah, but it's very easily decades off. Also keep in mind, it's not 2020 in the DCU. It's apparently 1997 currently.

According to the timeline Clark shows up as Superman in 1962 at the start of gen 2. That makes Clark 26 around then. No mention is made of Lois till they marry in gen 3. Assuming they meet in gen 2 (which is more than likely), Lois should be of comparable age to Clark (as in, in her 20s). As an example, Bruce is 21 when he becomes Batman in gen 2 the same year Clark becomes Superman. So, if Lois were between Clark and Bruce's ages that would put her at like, lets say, 23 for the sake of numbers.

Jon is Born in 1986 (I see what you did there, DC) in gen 3. Lois is 37 by the time gen 3 starts if we, like I said, assume she's 23 at gen 2's start. Jon's born 9 years into gen 3, so that makes Lois 46 when she has Jon. It's a fairly low percentage in terms of the likelihood to have a kid, but it's possible, and Jon's birth is already credited as being a bit of an impossibility to begin with. That's This also makes Jon 12 by the end of gen 4 (which is accurate). This makes current day Lois 57, Clark 60, and Bruce 55. Again, you can adjust those numbers for Lois a bit and subtract likely up to 3 years. So she's 43 when she has Jon, and is currently 54.

Dick's in his early to mid 40s. I imagine Selena can be even younger than Lois given how young Bruce starts. Tim's in his late 20s to early 30s. Barbara is likely around Dick's age.

TLDR: just think Kingdom Come ages.

[Mr.B]

Keep in mind most of this is speculation and likely to change