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  1. #121
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    One thing that just kind of surprises me is DC doing replacements for Wonder Woman and Aquaman right when it's the prime time to actually capitalize on those characters thanks to their success in outside media.

    Like, if ever there was a bad time for replacement stories...
    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    When Riri went from headlining “Iron Man” to headlining “Ironheart” her sales were far worse off. I guarantee you if you took “Spider-Man” away from Miles and made him “Spider-Boy” or “Arachnid Man” his sales would drop also. Trying to launch new diverse characters without the benefit of the mantles tends to fail more often than race-swapping characters. The market for new characters from the Big 2, at least in solos, is absolutely terrible right now.

    Jane Thor for example sells far less as “Valkyrie” than she did as Thor. Why? Aaron and Ewing are writing her, she’s got a good artist, why isn’t she selling as well? Because now she’s not the “main character” anymore.
    Granted, even her Iron Man sales weren't that hot (because by then Bendis was pretty much burned out) and Miles sells nowhere near as well as the main ASM book does.

    Look at Superior Spider-Man. Supposed fan-favorite character who sold well when the book replaced ASM but got to 20K around it's fifth issue and canceled.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    No they don’t, that’s just flat out not true. The New Age of Heroes flopped for that very reason. People don’t want new heroes with new mantles and sometimes swapping out older heroes who tend to be straight white guys for newer heroes who tend to be diverse does work. Jaime Reyes has supplanted Ted Kord as Blue Beetle after all. But replacing ALL your main heroes at once is most likely going to flop.
    This is an oversimplification of things.

    First and foremost, you have to have REALLY good ideas for any new character to succeed in comics today. The New Age of Heroes characters probably weren't good enough simply as characters and concepts, regardless of their races. Furthermore, I know that line had a problem with keeping the creators on the books. Jim Lee drew--what was it--one issue and then left!? You can't pull stuff like that and then expect the properties to succeed. They need quality, care, and consistency. So, it just isn't a matter of "new characters don't work, only palette swaps do." There were other crucial factors in there to consider, if we want to be fair.

  3. #123
    Astonishing Member kingaliencracker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    When Riri went from headlining “Iron Man” to headlining “Ironheart” her sales were far worse off. I guarantee you if you took “Spider-Man” away from Miles and made him “Spider-Boy” or “Arachnid Man” his sales would drop also. Trying to launch new diverse characters without the benefit of the mantles tends to fail more often than race-swapping characters. The market for new characters from the Big 2, at least in solos, is absolutely terrible right now.

    Jane Thor for example sells far less as “Valkyrie” than she did as Thor. Why? Aaron and Ewing are writing her, she’s got a good artist, why isn’t she selling as well? Because now she’s not the “main character” anymore.
    DC has been more successful at the legacy thing than Marvel for sure.

    However, there was a natural progression with those characters: Wally West, Dick Grayson, Conner Kent, Donna Troy, Jason Todd, John Henry Irons, Kara Zor-El, Barbara Gordon...I mean I can go on and on.

    Doing one sweeping change where you replace every one of your core characters with a legacy character? I just can't see that working long-term. It didn't with Marvel, and DC isn't nearly as in good graces with the fans. But, we'll see.
    Last edited by kingaliencracker; 10-08-2019 at 11:28 AM.

  4. #124
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    I can't see this working, either. I predict DC will end up with another DCYOU, or perhaps even worse. This rumor doesn't bother me, because I already wasn't buying DC books and am not that invested in the characters, so I think this might actually be a good thing in the long run. This could be the thing that finally leads to Dan DiDio losing his position at DC Comics. When Geoff Johns was made president, I thought it was good for the same reason. I felt it would get him out of there sooner, because I didn't have much faith in him. I'm getting the same premonition from this silly move in regards to DiDio.

  5. #125
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Just to reiterate: This will almost certainly fail imo. There will be an initial bump for stuff like a Black Batman, just like there was a bump for stuff like Jane taking over as Thor, Sam becoming Cap, etc. However the bumps usually wore off with a few exceptions like Jane Thor, and Luke Fox as Batman is the only one I can see with any real staying power. Jon is going to flop hard just like when they made Mon-El and Chris Kent Nightwing the stars of Superman’s books. Who does this aged up Jon appeal to? Not Jon fans and not Clark fans.

    But I feel like I had to point out why they’d have diverse people take over the mantles instead of making new ones.

  6. #126
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    This is an oversimplification of things.

    First and foremost, you have to have REALLY good ideas for any new character to succeed in comics today. The New Age of Heroes characters probably weren't good enough simply as characters and concepts, regardless of their races. Furthermore, I know that line had a problem with keeping the creators on the books. Jim Lee drew--what was it--one issue and then left!? You can't pull stuff like that and then expect the properties to succeed. They need quality, care, and consistency. So, it just isn't a matter of "new characters don't work, only palette swaps do." There were other crucial factors in there to consider, if we want to be fair.
    Jeff Loveness wrote a fantastic Sam Nova and he even brought back Dick Nova and had the two team up together. The book was funny as hell and a great read. Still flopped. Eve Ewing has pretty much singlehandedly made Riri a cool character after Bendis terrible efforts. Book still flopped sales wise. And again, why is Jane Valkyrie selling less than Jane Thor when she’s got a great writing and art team on her book?

    Having “good ideas” or even making a quality book are no guarantee of sales. Announcing that Batman is now black? That will move copies at least initially. “X is now black/Latino/gay/etc” is bigger news than “we’ve created a new character called X!” these days.

  7. #127
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    That will move copies at least initially. “X is now black/Latino/gay/etc” is bigger news than “we’ve created a new character called X!” these days.
    Is that because people are genuinely interested - at least in seeing how the change is executed, or are their still people out there who think they'll be worth anything to collectors? #1s tend to sell a lot (even when the last #1 for the same title was very recent), and I have the same question about those.

  8. #128
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Jeff Loveness wrote a fantastic Sam Nova and he even brought back Dick Nova and had the two team up together. The book was funny as hell and a great read. Still flopped. Eve Ewing has pretty much singlehandedly made Riri a cool character after Bendis terrible efforts. Book still flopped sales wise. And again, why is Jane Valkyrie selling less than Jane Thor when she’s got a great writing and art team on her book?

    Having “good ideas” or even making a quality book are no guarantee of sales. Announcing that Batman is now black? That will move copies at least initially. “X is now black/Latino/gay/etc” is bigger news than “we’ve created a new character called X!” these days.
    It hurts a lot that Loveness' Nova sold so badly. It was a good book :/.

  9. #129
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Is that because people are genuinely interested - at least in seeing how the change is executed, or are their still people out there who think they'll be worth anything to collectors? #1s tend to sell a lot (even when the last #1 for the same title was very recent), and I have the same question about those.
    That’s the gamble. Most people don’t stick around but sometimes stuff like Doc Ock as Spidey or Jane Thor have sustaining sales.

    If this fails Didio better get the boot. I’ve always been annoyed with how people blame him for everything, but between the New 52, DC You, Rebirth, and now this 5G, he’s had a long time directing the line and another failure speaks to a failure at the top to me. If it’s a success than he’ll get the last laugh since it seems like a lot of people here will be dropping comic books.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Jeff Loveness wrote a fantastic Sam Nova and he even brought back Dick Nova and had the two team up together. The book was funny as hell and a great read. Still flopped. Eve Ewing has pretty much singlehandedly made Riri a cool character after Bendis terrible efforts. Book still flopped sales wise. And again, why is Jane Valkyrie selling less than Jane Thor when she’s got a great writing and art team on her book?

    Having “good ideas” or even making a quality book are no guarantee of sales. Announcing that Batman is now black? That will move copies at least initially. “X is now black/Latino/gay/etc” is bigger news than “we’ve created a new character called X!” these days.
    Because a "main title" is usually going to sell more than a satellite title. People follow the specific Iron Man book. Those people may not necessarily follow Riri Williams. That's why Iron Man sells more than Iron Heart. Not because Riri Williams is more popular as Iron Man. That's a testament to the Iron Man comic book title's worth. Not Riri Williams as Iron Man. Nova is not a particular popular character regardless of who is Nova.

  11. #131
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    The thing is DC always puts their legacy characters in the main book and that shields a lot of those characters from the sales drops that they would receive from a new ongoing.
    If Marvel ever replaced Peter with Miles and had it happen in the main book and then Peter got a new ongoing or whatever then Miles would be outselling Peter
    Marvel needs to learn how to brand their heroes as legacy characters.

    At the same time this same practice is also signaling to some fans that their minor character is actually that popular when in reality its the brand that is being sold not the character. Replace Barry with Wally call it the Flash sales will stay the same
    Replace Bruce with Dick call it Batman sales will stay the same

    Fans are not migrating to titles based on a character but a specific hero
    Last edited by Nite-Wing; 10-08-2019 at 12:58 PM.

  12. #132
    Ultimate Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    I can't see this working, either. I predict DC will end up with another DCYOU, or perhaps even worse. This rumor doesn't bother me, because I already wasn't buying DC books and am not that invested in the characters, so I think this might actually be a good thing in the long run. This could be the thing that finally leads to Dan DiDio losing his position at DC Comics. When Geoff Johns was made president, I thought it was good for the same reason. I felt it would get him out of there sooner, because I didn't have much faith in him. I'm getting the same premonition from this silly move in regards to DiDio.
    Yeah I'm thinking if this doesn't pan out, it would definitely affect Didio in some way.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    I can't see this working, either. I predict DC will end up with another DCYOU, or perhaps even worse. This rumor doesn't bother me, because I already wasn't buying DC books and am not that invested in the characters, so I think this might actually be a good thing in the long run. This could be the thing that finally leads to Dan DiDio losing his position at DC Comics. When Geoff Johns was made president, I thought it was good for the same reason. I felt it would get him out of there sooner, because I didn't have much faith in him. I'm getting the same premonition from this silly move in regards to DiDio.
    I'm starting to think Dan's middle name must be Teflon at this point.

  14. #134
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    If the rumors are true, and that's a big IF, we have at least a year before this, probably with Metal 2 opening the way for 5G. ANd they have clearly been working on it for some time already, possibly at least a year, a year and a half I think.

    I also think that DC knows that their readership is extremely change-adverse, the New Age of Heroes line proved that most readers also don't even bother picking a #1 if it isn't a household name on the cover. All of this makes me think that DC knows that the direct market won't follow them on this move, but that they have washed their hands with it. It'll sell digitally, if the stories are good beyond the initial gimmick. If they aim at trade/graphic novel format only for those stories, they'll also expand their readership base.

    And I think that they know they can do that and still assuage the direct market by publishing series with the mainstays. I just hope that come hell and high waters, they'll stick to the 5G long enough for it to produce fans able to sustain it, instead of caving it at the first screams from the direct market crowd.

  15. #135
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    If the rumors are true, and that's a big IF, we have at least a year before this, probably with Metal 2 opening the way for 5G. ANd they have clearly been working on it for some time already, possibly at least a year, a year and a half I think.

    I also think that DC knows that their readership is extremely change-adverse, the New Age of Heroes line proved that most readers also don't even bother picking a #1 if it isn't a household name on the cover. All of this makes me think that DC knows that the direct market won't follow them on this move, but that they have washed their hands with it. It'll sell digitally, if the stories are good beyond the initial gimmick. If they aim at trade/graphic novel format only for those stories, they'll also expand their readership base.

    And I think that they know they can do that and still assuage the direct market by publishing series with the mainstays. I just hope that come hell and high waters, they'll stick to the 5G long enough for it to produce fans able to sustain it, instead of caving it at the first screams from the direct market crowd.
    wait what Metal 2

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