The 'original' timeline-altering event that cause the shift from GA to SA...

[Tzigone]

Now where the Super Friends and Green Arrow have their switching points is unknown. In fact, it may even be possible there is no set point but stories eventually going from one world to the other. Going through back issues and trying to identify stories as Earth-One or Earth-Two is far too lengthy and complicated a process for me to care about.

Doesn't answer the in-universe question first asked, but the second origin for Speedy in 1955 (Adventure Comics #209) would probably be the latest I'd pick for silver-age swap for Green Arrow. Not sure on where earlier than that a transition point might be. Not sure, but it seems like they moved from an apartment to house at some point, too. I may try to see what I can find, though, just because. Will probably give up quickly, though. Of course, I have swap-to-bronze-age in mind for him, too, but everyone knows when that is, even if it doesn't have the distinctness of an earth-2 to earth-1 break.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, that might be Roy's third origin. But I think it's second? I know first was the plane crash one where they took their identities at the same time. Then there's the scientist-father one, then the forest-ranger father one, but I can't recall what order they come in.

EDIT AGAIN: First it was the plane crash, then the scientist dad (very quickly forgotten), then the magnetized arrow in Adventure #262 in 1959. This being the case, I guess I can go with #246 or #256 with Ollie's new origin.

[Jim Kelly]

There was a young woman I met at university and we had a lot of mutual friends. So we would often meet in different social situations and one of our friends would introduce us to each other each time. And we would pretend that we never met before. It was a wonderful running joke we shared. This is how it seems with Batman/Bruce and Superman/Clark who keep meeting for the first time over and over. I think they first met at least three times when they were teens. And then more times when they were grown up.

The idea that they first met as of SUPERMAN 76 (May-June 1952) would have been ridiculous to any reader at the time that had been reading WORLD'S FINEST COMICS, because they had been meeting on every cover since 1940. And I don't think readers would have distinguished between covers and inside stories. The difference with that SUPERMAN issue is that it showed how they met for the first time--so you could just assume that story is their Year One and doesn't necessarily happen at the same time as their other contemporary stories in 1952.

[Gero4568]

Crisis on Infinite earths seperated Superman (and Batman) from the JSA.

It's not a complicated setup. Jay Garrick and Alan Scott were on Earth Two; Barry Allen and Hal Jordan were on Earth-One. Until COIE, the was no even splitting the two. Many stories took place on Earth-One and many others took place on Earth-Two. Except for Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and Green Arrow the switching point between Earths One and Two are blatantly obvious.

Now where the Super Friends and Green Arrow have their switching points is unknown. In fact, it may even be possible there is no set point but stories eventually going from one world to the other. Going through back issues and trying to identify stories as Earth-One or Earth-Two is far too lengthy and complicated a process for me to care about.

With Green Arrow, the potential dates are Adventure Comics #246 (Mike's Amazing World) and #250 (DC Wiki). #256 could also work, as that is when the millionaire stranded on island origin was introduced. Earth-Two Green Arrow was a historian and heavily tied into subjects concerning Indiginous Tribes in the US.

With Aquaman, it's quite easy. Adventure issue #229 introduces, Topo, the first member of Aquaman's modern cast. This is reinforced with a new origin establishing his name as Arthur Curry, the son of a lighthouse keeper and other such things during that time period.

As for Superman, his first Earth-1 appearence was in 1945. His first appearence as Superman in the mainstream books was in Superman #57 in 1949. He and Kal-L were featured on and off, with Kal-El starring in issues consistantly after issue #76. By issue #90, he was the only Superman around. He took took over Action around the same time, in issue #197.

E-1 Batman made his first appearence in Superman #76. He took over Detective in issue #225 and Batman in issue #96. Much like with Superman, this is based around consistant appearences, not first appearences.

For Wonder Woman, the transition occurs almost seamlessly, with her first appearence in issue #98, which establishes her E-1 backstory and everything. She carried that title after that, with no bouncing back between E-1 and E-2.

[Lee Stone]

With Green Arrow, the potential dates are Adventure Comics #246 (Mike's Amazing World) and #250 (DC Wiki). #256 could also work, as that is when the millionaire stranded on island origin was introduced. Earth-Two Green Arrow was a historian and heavily tied into subjects concerning Indiginous Tribes in the US.

With Aquaman, it's quite easy. Adventure issue #229 introduces, Topo, the first member of Aquaman's modern cast. This is reinforced with a new origin establishing his name as Arthur Curry, the son of a lighthouse keeper and other such things during that time period.

As for Superman, his first Earth-1 appearence was in 1945. His first appearence as Superman in the mainstream books was in Superman #57 in 1949. He and Kal-L were featured on and off, with Kal-El starring in issues consistantly after issue #76. By issue #90, he was the only Superman around. He took took over Action around the same time, in issue #197.

E-1 Batman made his first appearence in Superman #76. He took over Detective in issue #225 and Batman in issue #96. Much like with Superman, this is based around consistant appearences, not first appearences.

For Wonder Woman, the transition occurs almost seamlessly, with her first appearence in issue #98, which establishes her E-1 backstory and everything. She carried that title after that, with no bouncing back between E-1 and E-2.

Wonder Woman did bounce back to Earth-2 briefly because of the tv show, from #228 to #243.

[Jim Kelly]

These dates for when Earth-One characters appeared and such like are, of course, just fans retconning onto the stories their assumptions of what should be Earth-One or Earth-Two. And this leaves out a lot of stories that don't fit either paradigm. Superboy, for example, developed his continuity over all that time and many of the early stories don't fit the continuity that was later established for Earth-One.

[bat39]

Crisis on Infinite earths seperated Superman (and Batman) from the JSA.

It's not a complicated setup. Jay Garrick and Alan Scott were on Earth Two; Barry Allen and Hal Jordan were on Earth-One. Until COIE, the was no even splitting the two. Many stories took place on Earth-One and many others took place on Earth-Two. Except for Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and Green Arrow the switching point between Earths One and Two are blatantly obvious.

Now where the Super Friends and Green Arrow have their switching points is unknown. In fact, it may even be possible there is no set point but stories eventually going from one world to the other. Going through back issues and trying to identify stories as Earth-One or Earth-Two is far too lengthy and complicated a process for me to care about.

Yeah, I know. I'm not talking about that. I think a lot of people seem to have confused the topic of the thread.

I'm not referring to where the dividing line is in the comics between the E2 and the E1 versions. There's a lot of debate and discussion on that subject online. Frankly, its impossible to ever have a definitive answer simply because the original comics were not written keeping the E1/E2 split in mind.

I'm referring to the unknown timeline-altering event which transformed the Golden Age Superman into the Silver Age Superman. Doomsday Clock established the fact that there was such an event. Originally, in the history of Earth 0, Superman showed up in 1938, as seen in Action Comics # 1. But then the first of many timeline shifts to come happen, and we end up with the Silver Age Superman who first showed up in 1956.

The idea is that originally the main DCU earth was basically the Golden Age earth with the original Siegal/Shuster Superman, the JSA etc. And then some event occurred which transformed the main DCU earth into the Silver Age earth, with the Silver Age Superman, and the JLA. (Versions of the Golden Age characters existed on Earth 2 instead).

There's a precedent for this line of thinking. COIE itself suggested that originally there was a single DCU earth that Krona's tampering transformed into a Multiverse. Which means that Krona's tampering could be what transformed the Golden Age into the Silver Age. But there could be another cause as well.

Ultimately, the Golden Age-Silver Age 'shift' or 'reboot' or whatever you want to call it has proved to be the most significant revamp in the entire history of DC, since its the one revamp that has persisted and served as the base template for the entire DC brand from the late 50's onwards.

[Jim Kelly]

The Immortal Superman went back to the beginning of time in ACTION COMICS 387 (April 1970)--however I always thought of that as the unofficial transition from the Weisinger Superman to the 1970s Superman--where his adventures as Superboy went from taking place in the 1920s/1930s to "15 years ago" and some of the more extreme elements of the Weisinger universe fell out of continuity.

[Electricmastro]

With Green Arrow, the potential dates are Adventure Comics #246 (Mike's Amazing World) and #250 (DC Wiki). #256 could also work, as that is when the millionaire stranded on island origin was introduced. Earth-Two Green Arrow was a historian and heavily tied into subjects concerning Indiginous Tribes in the US.

With Aquaman, it's quite easy. Adventure issue #229 introduces, Topo, the first member of Aquaman's modern cast. This is reinforced with a new origin establishing his name as Arthur Curry, the son of a lighthouse keeper and other such things during that time period.

As for Superman, his first Earth-1 appearence was in 1945. His first appearence as Superman in the mainstream books was in Superman #57 in 1949. He and Kal-L were featured on and off, with Kal-El starring in issues consistantly after issue #76. By issue #90, he was the only Superman around. He took took over Action around the same time, in issue #197.

E-1 Batman made his first appearence in Superman #76. He took over Detective in issue #225 and Batman in issue #96. Much like with Superman, this is based around consistant appearences, not first appearences.

For Wonder Woman, the transition occurs almost seamlessly, with her first appearence in issue #98, which establishes her E-1 backstory and everything. She carried that title after that, with no bouncing back between E-1 and E-2.

And the Earth-One Catwoman is apparently first seen in Detective Comics #203 (January, 1954) as well.

[K. Jones]

I love the notion of the Legion going to find Superboy altering a lot - particularly in the Superman books, effectively ushering in the transition from Siegel & Shuster into the Binder Era. I could also buy Brainiac having something to do with it if like, the ultimate evolutions of Brainiac we've been seeing lately play into it later in their timelines.

I'm not sure it's cosmic enough to explain why guys like Alan Scott and Jay Garrick end up on another Earth with another Batman and Superman. Earth-2 feels like a "copy" of Main Earth where some event in history plays out slightly differently. Krona was introduced in '65 so he's not too far out of field. You would perhaps suspect or subscribe to the notion that whatever Multiversal Cosmic force we're unaware of probably relates to Barry Flash comics or Hal Green Lantern comics, or the 1960s Justice League of America itself. Like whatever fundamentally altered the universes could be what unleashed the likes of Starro from beyond dimensional space.

I'd make it interesting if I was doing it and have Snapper Carr somehow be way involved. You could tie some other things into it; concepts like Thunderbolt making the JSA disappear have been done a couple times now (Doomsday Clock & Crisis Times 5). There's some angles to play. But what cosmic force could have caused all those threads to be linked together?

[Lee]

What's the rationale for all of these issues being the Earth-1 versions?

[Lee Stone]

What's the rationale for all of these issues being the Earth-1 versions?

Most often it's because a secondary character's continuity retroactively makes a story Earth-1 based.
For example, if a secondary character appearing in Flash, Green Lantern, JLA or Teen Titans (all definitely Earth-1 titles) references a story in Book X as part of their past, that causes that story to have happened on Earth-1.

[Lee Stone]

And the Earth-One Catwoman is apparently first seen in Detective Comics #203 (January, 1954) as well.

Yeah.
Mike's Amazing World has Batman's first appearance as Superman #76 and taking over Batman with #81 and Detective with #203.

http://www.mikesamazingworld.com/mik...haracterid=147

[CaptCleghorn]

Yeah, I know. I'm not talking about that. I think a lot of people seem to have confused the topic of the thread.

I'm not referring to where the dividing line is in the comics between the E2 and the E1 versions. There's a lot of debate and discussion on that subject online. Frankly, its impossible to ever have a definitive answer simply because the original comics were not written keeping the E1/E2 split in mind.

I'm referring to the unknown timeline-altering event which transformed the Golden Age Superman into the Silver Age Superman. Doomsday Clock established the fact that there was such an event. Originally, in the history of Earth 0, Superman showed up in 1938, as seen in Action Comics # 1. But then the first of many timeline shifts to come happen, and we end up with the Silver Age Superman who first showed up in 1956.

The idea is that originally the main DCU earth was basically the Golden Age earth with the original Siegal/Shuster Superman, the JSA etc. And then some event occurred which transformed the main DCU earth into the Silver Age earth, with the Silver Age Superman, and the JLA. (Versions of the Golden Age characters existed on Earth 2 instead).

There's a precedent for this line of thinking. COIE itself suggested that originally there was a single DCU earth that Krona's tampering transformed into a Multiverse. Which means that Krona's tampering could be what transformed the Golden Age into the Silver Age. But there could be another cause as well.

Ultimately, the Golden Age-Silver Age 'shift' or 'reboot' or whatever you want to call it has proved to be the most significant revamp in the entire history of DC, since its the one revamp that has persisted and served as the base template for the entire DC brand from the late 50's onwards.

There was no such event. DClock had Manhattan investigating the shifting histories of Superman through DC's changing continuities. His point of view was basically that of a reader who was paying attention to the main Earth at the time. The JSA with Superman only existed on Earth Two. The JSA without Superman was a result of the single earth cause by COIE. Superman appearing in 1956 was Earth-One which wasn't the same earth as that in which he appeared in 38 or 86. All of these happened on the Earth that most DC stories occured on. There has been NO event yet described or published that caused this.

Now Johns may be coming up with something for DClock 12 or there may be details in the supposed 2020 Crisis event, but as of now, there is no explantion.

[Lee]

Most often it's because a secondary character's continuity retroactively makes a story Earth-1 based.
For example, if a secondary character appearing in Flash, Green Lantern, JLA or Teen Titans (all definitely Earth-1 titles) references a story in Book X as part of their past, that causes that story to have happened on Earth-1.

What is it that makes Superman #76 and Detective Comics #203 significant?

[Electricmastro]

What's the rationale for all of these issues being the Earth-1 versions?

1. On the idea of the Earth-One Superman being the Superboy from More Fun Comics #101 -

Superboy has no Earth-Two counterpart.

2. Alternative explanations on the idea that the Earth-One Batman didn't first appear in Superman #76 -

Detective Comics #327, 1964 -
Who's Who: The Definitive Directory of the DC Universe #2 identifies Detective Comics #327 (1964) as the first appearance of the Earth-One Batman and Convergence #0 cites Detective Comics #327 as the first appearance of "Pre-Crisis Earth-One Gotham City". This partly agrees with Bob Rozakis' statement that the first appearances of the Earth-one Batman were "generally assumed Batman #126 and Detective Comics #327, the issues when Julius Schwartz took over"[494]
This selection hinges on the well-publicized debut of the "New Look" Batman with the yellow oval on his chest.
However, this is four years after the debut of the Justice League, which necessarily features the Earth-One Batman.

The Brave and the Bold #28, 1960 -
Batman appeared in the Justice League, with no yellow oval.
Prior to Detective #327, Batman had already met with Batwoman, Bat-Mite, the Justice League, and numerous villains. A lot of these stories are referenced in the Earth-One continuity, post Detective #327.

Batman #81, 1954 -
The Essential Wonder Woman Encyclopedia lists Batman #81 (1954) for Earth-1 Batman.
But Convergence #0 comes after Essential Wonder Woman Encyclopedia, thus should be more authoritative.
Batman #81 (1954) is nearly two years after Superman #76 (1952).

3. On the idea that the Earth-One Wonder Woman first appeared in Wonder Woman #98 -

Due to changes in Wonder Woman's background and Hippolyta's physical appearance, this issue is regarded by many as the first canonical appearance of the Earth-One Wonder Woman (and her supporting cast).

Wonder Woman's ability to glide on air currents is also revealed for the first time in this issue. The Earth-Two Wonder Woman never possessed this ability in stories published during the 1940's.

4. On the idea that the Earth-One Catwoman first appeared in Detective Comics #203 -

Because the history of the Catwoman of Earth-Two given in Superman Family #211 makes it clear that she never returned to crime after she reformed in Batman #62, then Detective Comics #203 must be an early Earth-One story featuring the Earth-One versions of Catwoman, Batman, etc.