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  1. #691
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedra View Post
    PLEASE stop putting yourself and your issues at the center of this discussion , We are not talking about real life, we are discussing what was shown during moira's 10 lifes, the issue presented to us by the writer is a matter of genetic and technological competition against 2 sides locked in a race for survival, it's only natural to wonder why the mutants haven't been using all tech at their disposal to avoid being slaughtered
    Competition implies there's a goal thats only available to a lone winner. annnnnd thats not the case at all lol
    GrindrStone(D)

  2. #692
    Beware! Daedra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Competition implies there's a goal thats only available to a lone winner. annnnnd thats not the case at all lol
    Well one way or the other the mutants are gonna have to find a way to avoid extinction or confinement to a zoo, 9 616 iterations so far have given negative results and moira went for an hard reset, any Idea about what could be done different this time to avoid the tenth failure?
    It's funny because when I saw her behind on the glass at the end of the show, I thought, "That's where she needs to be. In captivity. Behind a glass in a lab somewhere that she can be studied like the psychotic specimen she is."

  3. #693
    Amazing Member Gladiator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedra View Post
    Well then sounds like it's about time they try to beat the ones willing to exterminate them at their own game, if giant robots try to kill you I say build better robots to protect you
    Only 3 mutants know about the end results. It seems like many changes have been made, yet readers are acting like nothing is being done. Plenty is being done. Only time will tell if it succeeds.

  4. #694
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedra View Post
    Well one way or the other the mutants are gonna have to find a way to avoid extinction or confinement to a zoo, 9 616 iterations so far have given negative results and moira went for an hard reset, any Idea about what could be done different this time to avoid the tenth failure?
    global lovefest till everyone is a mutant....or too drained to care
    GrindrStone(D)

  5. #695
    Amazing Member Gladiator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Competition implies there's a goal thats only available to a lone winner. annnnnd thats not the case at all lol
    That was/is the case for the humans. Hence why the mutants keep losing. I think Moira has been in the competition for centuries.

  6. #696
    Beware! Daedra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gladiator View Post
    Only 3 mutants know about the end results. It seems like many changes have been made, yet readers are acting like nothing is being done. Plenty is being done. Only time will tell if it succeeds.
    I wonder how much longer will they be able to keep this secret now that we " the readers" know about it

    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    global lovefest till everyone is a mutant....or too drained to care
    Sounds like a party, if worldwide orgies are the only peaceful solution then so be it!
    Last edited by Daedra; 10-12-2019 at 06:55 PM.
    It's funny because when I saw her behind on the glass at the end of the show, I thought, "That's where she needs to be. In captivity. Behind a glass in a lab somewhere that she can be studied like the psychotic specimen she is."

  7. #697
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gladiator View Post
    That was/is the case for the humans. Hence why the mutants keep losing. I think Moira has been in the competition for centuries.
    but its not like Humans are dying out like the Neanderthal...if by 'surival' they mean the successful passing of their genes to future generations and Humans begat Mutants.......
    GrindrStone(D)

  8. #698
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    Mutants have always been presented as the threat that will cause a mass human extinction and bring about nothing but mutant births. The whole idea of evolution and survival of the fittest are aspects of human nature. In order to thrive you have to be better than the competition. You have to be able to compete on a level playing field. That’s why the idea of Krakoa is so important to the advancement of mutant rights. They have their own land, language and economy. Mutants are now doing business with humans on their terms as a collective. Gone are the days where mutants are subjected to the cruelties of the many governments across the globe. The one thing mutants will never be safe from is the imagination of men. As long as there are intellects that can think up futuristic applications for technological advancements, then mutants will never inhabit that space of the next step in evolution.

    Humans aren’t just the dominant species on the planet because we sat back and allowed evolution to take place. No, we thrived as a dominant species because other species don’t have the imagination to think up weaponry. They are our technological advancements. Elephants and killer whales aren’t lacking in brain power in comparison to the human race. Many could argue that those animals are even smarter than some humans. They still aren’t in competition to become the dominant species on earth because they don’t have the imagination to think up technological advancements.

    The human condition will always be dependent on a sense of self preservation. When you have the imagination to think up ways of protecting your way of life you have to think about the serious threats that will logically arise. In this way, Wakanda is exactly what mutants are trying to imitate. They have cultivated a culture that’s designed to technologically enhance their lives in a way that benefits their collective, both mutant and human alike. The implications of it all would mean that Wakanda’s reluctance to take the deal poses a bigger threat than any mutant realizes. It’s not malicious, but Wakanda already has everything it needs to make mutants obsolete. It’s both funny and frightening in way.

  9. #699
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrancejameson View Post
    Mutants have always been presented as the threat that will cause a mass human extinction and bring about nothing but mutant births. The whole idea of evolution and survival of the fittest are aspects of human nature. In order to thrive you have to be better than the competition. You have to be able to compete on a level playing field. That’s why the idea of Krakoa is so important to the advancement of mutant rights. They have their own land, language and economy. Mutants are now doing business with humans on their terms as a collective. Gone are the days where mutants are subjected to the cruelties of the many governments across the globe. The one thing mutants will never be safe from is the imagination of men. As long as there are intellects that can think up futuristic applications for technological advancements, then mutants will never inhabit that space of the next step in evolution.

    Humans aren’t just the dominant species on the planet because we sat back and allowed evolution to take place. No, we thrived as a dominant species because other species don’t have the imagination to think up weaponry. They are our technological advancements. Elephants and killer whales aren’t lacking in brain power in comparison to the human race. Many could argue that those animals are even smarter than some humans. They still aren’t in competition to become the dominant species on earth because they don’t have the imagination to think up technological advancements.

    The human condition will always be dependent on a sense of self preservation. When you have the imagination to think up ways of protecting your way of life you have to think about the serious threats that will logically arise. In this way, Wakanda is exactly what mutants are trying to imitate. They have cultivated a culture that’s designed to technologically enhance their lives in a way that benefits their collective, both mutant and human alike. The implications of it all would mean that Wakanda’s reluctance to take the deal poses a bigger threat than any mutant realizes. It’s not malicious, but Wakanda already has everything it needs to make mutants obsolete. It’s both funny and frightening in way.
    I once heard that human beings aren't born with prejudice, but are made for them, by someone who wants something.

    And like you mentioned with human extinction, although doesn't justify atrocities and irrationality, still plays a role in people who don't want to go extinct.

    And sure, the relationship between human mutates and human mutants has gotten very inconsistent in its worldbuilding, and why humans ending up hating the mutants more than the mutates seems to have been pretty poorly handled by most accounts, but with that said, I quite liked the explanation Marvels #2 (1994) gave, and reminds me that human/mutant relations, at least when written well, have more complexities than what's seen on the surface:


  10. #700
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedra View Post
    yhea, I got that but I don't see how homo novissima would pose any threat to this iteration of the 616 mutant nation, the point I'm trying to make is that as it stands the mutant race holds all the card to ensure their further evolution and empowerment far ahead of the homo novissima we saw on life six
    Ok, so I'm going to go out on a limb with this one, and put out what I think Hickman is arguing. I could be completely wrong here, but it fits the evidence we've seen so far. And stick with me for a bit, because I'm coming back to your point at the end.

    As presented, you have to look at evolution as a zero sum game. In order for a new species to survive and thrive (homo superior), the old one must die off (homo sapiens). This will happen naturally, and in no way requires violence. Homo sapiens is at a genetic dead end. They have gone as far as their genes can carry them. And will, in a matter of a few generations, enter into a steady and inescapable decline. This will open the door to mutants, who will continue to multiply. It will be hurried by cross breeding between homo sapiens and mutants, which is much more likely to produce a mutant than a homo sapiens child, particularly as time goes on. And in time, a tipping point will be reached, at which point mutants, on the rise, will inescapably achieve biological dominance while humans, on the rapid decline, will fade and go extinct.

    For context, the outcome of Xavier's coexistence dream would be a peaceable, loving hand off. Homo sapiens, looking on fondly and with hope for the future of the Earth, like parents, as their incredible children take their place as the dominant species on the planet.

    But humanity isn't going to just sit by and let that tipping point be reached. They build Sentinels. The machines kill mutants, keeping population numbers down. They force mutants into hiding, keeping societal development from taking place. It's a slow brake on mutant's acceleration. It slows the speed at which mutants rise, and thus pushes further and further down the road the date at which they become a biological inevitability. Genosha isn't just a massacre, it's humanity resetting mutants to the starting line in a race where humanity is already a couple hundred meters down the track. From Sentinels they develop Nimrod. Nimrod is like slamming on the genetic brakes, hard. The conflicts keep mutant numbers down even further. It keeps humans in the genetic race. Even the machines conquering humanity isn't a serious obstacle in this sense, because by keeping humanity alive and kicking, and in fact even allowing and encouraging augmentation, the machines are serving the humans' genetic end goals even as they enslave them.

    Homo novissimus is the result. Humanity lives well past it's expiration date, while mutants never reach the critical mass necessary to truly top the plateau. And then humans start to actively cheat. Engineering their own genetic evolution, altering their dna, experimenting with cybernetic and machine augmentation, they achieve breakthroughs that push homo sapiens past the genetic bottleneck that they found themselves in at the beginning of this story. Suddenly, the limits of their species take a cosmic leap forward, allowing them to control their own evolution and create a species that actually surpasses homo superior. The equation flips. Now it is once again a question of critical mass, but mutants are so far behind the eight ball in terms of population and societal development (which would enable population growth) that post-humanity has a massive advantage even as the race starts over. And so mutants lose. They fall away, into the metaphorical junkheap of genetic history.

    What you're talking about is the mutants joining this genetic arms race. You're 100% not wrong. They have all the tools, they probably have access to even more significant technology. And, in fact, that's exactly what Hickman has started exploring. Resurrection tech is a game changer on an evolutionary level. If no mutants ever truly die, and yet they can reproduce normally, it's an absolute boon for their population numbers. As well as for the health and stability of their culture and society. It's the first step to evening up the race that they are so far behind in. In metaphorical terms, it is mutants finally starting the engine on their high powered sports car even as humans round the first turn and speed away. Now it's a question of how long it takes them to catch up, and what obstacles humanity will throw at them to keep them from doing so.

    It isn't a war. But it is absolutely a competition. And thanks to Moira, the mutants know, with relative certainty, that there can be only one winner.
    Last edited by ZeroBG82; 10-12-2019 at 07:24 PM.

  11. #701
    Amazing Member Gladiator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    but its not like Humans are dying out like the Neanderthal...if by 'surival' they mean the successful passing of their genes to future generations and Humans begat Mutants.......
    Doesnít matter. Moiraís lives, especially life 6, conveys the humans have been playing the long game. Humans arenít dying out, but that doesnít negate anything about them being in competition, albeit self-induced.

  12. #702
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Hmm...


  13. #703
    Astonishing Member Abe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    Ok, so I'm going to go out on a limb with this one, and put out what I think Hickman is arguing. I could be completely wrong here, but it fits the evidence we've seen so far. And stick with me for a bit, because I'm coming back to your point at the end.

    As presented, you have to look at evolution as a zero sum game. In order for a new species to survive and thrive (homo superior), the old one must die off (homo sapiens). This will happen naturally, and in no way requires violence. Homo sapiens is at a genetic dead end. They have gone as far as their genes can carry them. And will, in a matter of a few generations, enter into a steady and inescapable decline. This will open the door to mutants, who will continue to multiply. It will be hurried by cross breeding between homo sapiens and mutants, which is much more likely to produce a mutant than a homo sapiens child, particularly as time goes on. And in time, a tipping point will be reached, at which point mutants, on the rise, will inescapably achieve biological dominance while humans, on the rapid decline, will fade and go extinct.

    For context, the outcome of Xavier's coexistence dream would be a peaceable, loving hand off. Homo sapiens, looking on fondly and with hope for the future of the Earth, like parents, as their incredible children take their place as the dominant species on the planet.

    But humanity isn't going to just sit by and let that tipping point be reached. They build Sentinels. The machines kill mutants, keeping population numbers down. They force mutants into hiding, keeping societal development from taking place. It's a slow brake on mutant's acceleration. It slows the speed at which mutants rise, and thus pushes further and further down the road the date at which they become a biological inevitability. Genosha isn't just a massacre, it's humanity resetting mutants to the starting line in a race where humanity is already a couple hundred meters down the track. From Sentinels they develop Nimrod. Nimrod is like slamming on the genetic brakes, hard. The conflicts keep mutant numbers down even further. It keeps humans in the genetic race. Even the machines conquering humanity isn't a serious obstacle in this sense, because by keeping humanity alive and kicking, and in fact even allowing and encouraging augmentation, the machines are serving the humans' genetic end goals even as they enslave them.

    Homo novissimus is the result. Humanity lives well past it's expiration date, while mutants never reach the critical mass necessary to truly top the plateau. And then humans start to actively cheat. Engineering their own genetic evolution, altering their dna, experimenting with cybernetic and machine augmentation, they achieve breakthroughs that push homo sapiens past the genetic bottleneck that they found themselves in at the beginning of this story. Suddenly, the limits of their species take a cosmic leap forward, allowing them to control their own evolution and create a species that actually surpasses homo superior. The equation flips. Now it is once again a question of critical mass, but mutants are so far behind the eight ball in terms of population and societal development (which would enable population growth) that post-humanity has a massive advantage even as the race starts over. And so mutants lose. They fall away, into the metaphorical junkheap of genetic history.

    What you're talking about is the mutants joining this genetic arms race. You're 100% not wrong. They have all the tools, they probably have access to even more significant technology. And, in fact, that's exactly what Hickman has started exploring. Resurrection tech is a game changer on an evolutionary level. If no mutants ever truly die, and yet they can reproduce normally, it's an absolute boon for their population numbers. As well as for the health and stability of their culture and society. It's the first step to evening up the race that they are so far behind in. In metaphorical terms, it is mutants finally starting the engine on their high powered sports car even as humans round the first turn and speed away. Now it's a question of how long it takes them to catch up, and what obstacles humanity will throw at them to keep them from doing so.

    It isn't a war. But it is absolutely a competition. And thanks to Moira, the mutants know, with relative certainty, that there can be only one winner.
    Not to forget that the goal is also to save the world. In a thousand years, it's about to end something like tomorrow.
    - To Tammy and the Blue Rose !

  14. #704
    Mighty Member Hulkout42's Avatar
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    What I say I do so while in keeping within the laws and rules of the Marvel U...baseline humans will not die out or the mutants get the planet in the end as it seems to be postulated in several comments seen here. If it was real word rules in play here then yes baseline humans are screwed but it's not what we are dealing with.

    First off, assuming that mutants gain the numbers and humans don't see the need to merge tech and organic and that the real threats from humanity such as Orchis are held at bay or wiped out you can't expect big brains like Stark, Richards, Valeria, T'Challa or Doom to miss it. It isn't possible given their level of intellect and resources, hell Reed made crazy super mathematical equations and machines that predicted outcomes for potential futures and Doom has time machines in his basement that would let him see what is going to go down. If they see the numbers they will take measures to save as many humans as they can, i mean Wakanda is looking to become a member of the Galactic community at the rate their going so that's one section of humanity safe. Doom will do anything he can to preserve Latveria and if he sees he can't win a war with the mutants than he will do what it takes to save his people (I base that on what he did for them in Marvel Zombies).

    Second, assuming that the mutants own big brains counter them there is still a matter of other threats such as supernatural ones like Dracula and his minions, Mephisto and his ilk, Belasco may decide to do a come back tour and create something to counter Magik or maybe Kurts pop will decide he doesn't want to play nice with everyone and may get some friends to pay them a visit or stirke a deal with Selene who decides she doesn't want to be on a leash or be threatend to be sent into a deep dark hole for being who she is.

    Third, assuming they counter the big brains and the supernatural element of the world... there is the matter of them giving death the finger with the five, genetic library and cerebro back up...you really think Death will just take that lying down? It's not like she ignores this type of things, i mean look at Ben Reilly and the mess he got into with her. If she decides she doesn't like that she may give Thanos a call and cull the mutants or kill the their means of resurrection. Or maybe Galactus decides he feels a case of the munchies and goes to snack on Earth and if can't have it and diplomacy doesn't happen then bye bye Earth. Then there is Hulk and the One Below...he was the last man standing at the end after killing off the Immortal Man and Frankie Richards so no mutants winning the day there either.

    Fourth, assume none of that happens and we are still within the premise set by hickman that mutants unite even under the false pretenses set by the trifecta...it's not going to last because Erik/Xavier have let their arrogance show in several forms: believing they can delude Raven in regards to Irene's "delayed" ressurection, the belief that any attack on them will be repelled (That mindset is imo very dangerous and they are pretty much letting their pride come before the fall). And that's just from outside threats, we still pending what Raven will do when she finds out they double crossed her, when (not if) Sabertooth gets out what he will do, Sinister is just as crazy and unpredictable as ever and if Xavier and Lensher think they have him on a short leash they are in for a very rude awakening.

    These are assumptions of course and could be utterly wrong but then again so could the comments about baseline humans looking to be on the endangered species list due to the machinations of Moira/Xavier/Erik. We will just have to wait and see in the comming issues before Hickman reveals what he has in store for everyone because as it is being show in other comics, this will not beconta in the X-books.
    Last edited by Hulkout42; 10-12-2019 at 08:18 PM.

  15. #705
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hulkout42 View Post
    What I say I do so while in keeping within the laws and rules of the Marvel U...baseline humans will not die out or the mutants get the planet in the end as it seems to be postulated in several comments seen here.
    No, what I described is literally how Hickman shows it, in the info pages of this very issue. Absent intervention, humanity dies out in as few as 2-4 generations, and mutants are what's next.

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