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  1. #361
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viteh View Post
    I'm not entirely sure about this. The Dominion's are supposed to exist outside time and space right? That's how they would know about Moira event if she died again. So I'm not really sure why a Dominion would care about Moira, if they aren't affected by her.

    I think when the Librarian talked about how she shouldn't have power over them she meant the post-humans.
    I think it refers to the Dominions. He says "We will know you forever. And I think is very likely we would not tolerate something like you having power over something like us." Dominions can survive the reboot of the universe but I don't think they like it.

    Another thought, Galactus and Phoenix, enemies of the Dominions, are the only abstacts that have shown interest in mutants (Franklin Richards and Jean Gray / Rachel Summers / Hope Summers).

  2. #362
    Moo-tant? Ultimate Rogue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    Something I don't understand from this thread.

    Several people don't think the mutants should separate themselves from humanity and form their own independent country. That there is hope for Xavier's dream!

    But what hope is there exactly? Moira even tested this by support Charles' dream fully in her 3rd life where they tried to cooperate and live the dream with humans, they were still exterminated by humans.

    We have just seen the humans building a genocidal weapon to exterminate mutants that the X-Men had to use deployed spies to get the intel on and stop it before it could be completed.
    Humans just tried to cure every mutant on the planet and get rid of any future occurrences of the X-Gene!
    Human governments have been engaging in mass detentions, experimentation, and executions of mutants to purge them from the population.

    I honestly don't understand what you are supposed to do when you face genocide on a global scale, how do you combat it? Do you just try to get good press and talk to these humans that keep trying to build mass genocidal weapons against your race?

    I honestly don't understand what the mutants are supposed to do in the face of the evils of the human race that are directed at them. In fact I think the only hope for mutant kind is to escape the Earth before the humans enact a lethal solution against them. I honestly don't think Charles and Erik went far enough, they should be trying to get off world as fast as possible because those islands are big giant targets for all the human governments of the world. Moira herself doesn't even think this plan will be successful, she thinks the humans are still going to win and kill them all, for Moira this is her last resort because she has tried every other option already.

    I am not sure how far the economic and political treaties will get them, they might be able to last for a few years but I think that the humans will actually try to conquer Krakoa so that they can control the drugs themselves and just take the mutants out of the equation entirely.

    In the face of the horrific evil directed at the mutants by the human race, what is the true solution to this problem? How do you save your people against this evil?
    Because even within the Marvel Universe the human race ain't just a gestalt of hate, fear, genocide, bigots and so on, some are babies, children, nurses, nature lovers, heroes, lovers and so on, the X-Men get that, they see that, they want to protect and defend those humans as much as their mutant brethren, that's where the depth and stresses of their narrative comes from.

    Xaviers dream gets simplified to peaceful co-existence, but there is another aspect to it, which has always been present, which is to teach his students to deal with, cope with and refute sociopathy. It's not about tribalism, them bad, us good. Look at the Quiet Council, there are some mutants that are as megalomaniac as some of those megalomaniac humans. Some mutants have caused the hate and fear towards mutants.

  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurolegacy View Post
    Declare us a sovereign nation or we don’t give you the goods is extortion.
    It isn't any different, or worse, than "recognize us as a sovereign nation or we'll go to war with you".

    Quote Originally Posted by Maestroneto View Post
    They made the goods themselves.
    There's also that.

  4. #364

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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    I feel that this is flawed. Hickman gave the answer he wanted, and the came up with the question and then came up with the problem in order to justify the answer to the question. I would say that a world with hope is just a present in as many alternate realities as one without it, and this particular one just happened to have Jean in the White Hot Room see the bad future are cut it off, which is just absolutely pointless if they all end up with mutants extinct in a decade or two.

    And, no, despite the 'doom and gloom' since House of M, the mutant future was barely any more apocalyptic than the future of Earth in general was. There are plenty of other superhero stories that have shown futures where everyone loses. That fate is not owned by mutants even though several writers have rehashed Days of Future Past.
    I guess we have to disagree. I think that the metaphor of mutants standing in for all the oppressed people in real life has reached a point where a new idea is needed. I welcome this new direction and I hope that it outlasts Charles and Erik and that the mutants are able to continue Krakoa even after the architects fall.

    I do think that the foundation of Krakoa is built on deceit and that will eventually come back to bite Charles and Erik in the ass. Charles and Erik are deceiving everyone and trying to contain and control everyone to follow the path that they have chosen. Moira herself is having doubts about decisions they have made and she still doesn't believe this will succeed. In the end Moira, Charles, and Erik are still flawed in spite of the foreknowledge gained from Moira's lives, and they are still making mistakes.
    We are MUTANT..Krakoa, FOREVER!!! “Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité”

  5. #365
    Fantastic Member JamJams's Avatar
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    Re-reading it I like how Hickman handled Moira nad the Shi'ar golem. Everything about her death is authentic because they uploaded a copy conscious into it so Moira did die but the real one was just off getting a nice glass of tea.

    I also like how Life 6 explains the rationale behind Moira's action in the future Lives.
    Life 7 seeing how Machines were the distraction humans needed, she attempted to remove the machines from the equation by killing their creator only to find out that another creator would take the Trask's place.
    Life 8 with the failure of removing the Machine element she tries to remove the Homo Novissima by ally with Magneto who always wanted to take the war to the humans. But they failed when Xavier allied with the humans against them.
    Life 9 she knew that Magneto wasn't enough to take on the humans so she got Apocalypse. Who made sure that Magneto and Xavier were eliminated, then removed all of the metahumans. Humanity still made robots but with Sinister's chimera program Apocalypse's forcce had more thane enough power to repel them, even with Nimrod.... until Sinister betrayed them. Then the machines became superior and mutants were falling back to the same fate that awaited them in Life 6. But before she left Moira managed to gather intel on what conditions cause the rise of Nimrod since that confirmed that the Machine uprisingis the bigger threat to mutants. Without the Machines there can be no Homo Novissima since they are a merger of genetic engineering and Machine technology and there would be no distraction for mutants in a war that would give humans the time they need to become Homo Novissima.

    So the big problems facing Life 10 at the moment seem to be that they let Sinister back into the fold and he's already creating chimeras ( i like to think he is a mixture of Thunderbird and Multiple Man). Mystique wants to bring Destiny back who doesn't like Moira and would love to despoil Krakoa by revealing Moira is its biggest weakness. And Omega Sentinel existence since she is the first step towards Homo Novissima.
    Comics: House of X, Powers of X

  6. #366

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate Rogue View Post
    Because even within the Marvel Universe the human race ain't just a gestalt of hate, fear, genocide, bigots and so on, some are babies, children, nurses, nature lovers, heroes, lovers and so on, the X-Men get that, they see that, they want to protect and defend those humans as much as their mutant brethren, that's where the depth and stresses of their narrative comes from.

    Xaviers dream gets simplified to peaceful co-existence, but there is another aspect to it, which has always been present, which is to teach his students to deal with, cope with and refute sociopathy. It's not about tribalism, them bad, us good. Look at the Quiet Council, there are some mutants that are as megalomaniac as some of those megalomaniac humans. Some mutants have caused the hate and fear towards mutants.
    I get that, but what do you do in the face of genocide being perpetuated against your people?

    For me this is a choice of retreat from conflict. We will retreat to a small territory that we built ourselves and all we ask is that you respect our borders and let us live our lives. We will even sell life saving medications to the people of the world that we have invented and we hope that this gesture will foster peace between our races.

    We will take responsibility for the mutant criminals and you can extradite them all to our island and we will take responsibility for their behaviour going forward. If your country does not want mutants at all, you are welcome to extradite them to our new homeland where you don't have to worry about the complications of their powers, we can take care of these people and help them to learn their powers safely.

    The path being chosen right now is not one of war, it is retreat to a safe nation. This is the same as the Israelites leaving the slavery of Egypt to form their own homeland. Although, with less killing of the people living in the "promised land" at the time because the Krakoan islands were unpopulated and no one was being hurt by the mutants going to live there.
    We are MUTANT..Krakoa, FOREVER!!! “Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité”

  7. #367
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viteh View Post
    I don't think the repeat pages count towards the page count of an issue. Same goes for the data pages. I think this issue had the same number of new art pages as any other issue.
    For what it is worth, based on my count, there are 24 new story pages, 8 repeat pages and 4 info pages, for $5.99. A standard book as 20 story pages for $3.99.

  8. #368
    Incredible Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamJams View Post
    Re-reading it I like how Hickman handled Moira nad the Shi'ar golem. Everything about her death is authentic because they uploaded a copy conscious into it so Moira did die but the real one was just off getting a nice glass of tea.

    I also like how Life 6 explains the rationale behind Moira's action in the future Lives.
    Life 7 seeing how Machines were the distraction humans needed, she attempted to remove the machines from the equation by killing their creator only to find out that another creator would take the Trask's place.
    Life 8 with the failure of removing the Machine element she tries to remove the Homo Novissima by ally with Magneto who always wanted to take the war to the humans. But they failed when Xavier allied with the humans against them.
    Life 9 she knew that Magneto wasn't enough to take on the humans so she got Apocalypse. Who made sure that Magneto and Xavier were eliminated, then removed all of the metahumans. Humanity still made robots but with Sinister's chimera program Apocalypse's forcce had more thane enough power to repel them, even with Nimrod.... until Sinister betrayed them. Then the machines became superior and mutants were falling back to the same fate that awaited them in Life 6. But before she left Moira managed to gather intel on what conditions cause the rise of Nimrod since that confirmed that the Machine uprisingis the bigger threat to mutants. Without the Machines there can be no Homo Novissima since they are a merger of genetic engineering and Machine technology and there would be no distraction for mutants in a war that would give humans the time they need to become Homo Novissima.

    So the big problems facing Life 10 at the moment seem to be that they let Sinister back into the fold and he's already creating chimeras ( i like to think he is a mixture of Thunderbird and Multiple Man). Mystique wants to bring Destiny back who doesn't like Moira and would love to despoil Krakoa by revealing Moira is its biggest weakness. And Omega Sentinel existence since she is the first step towards Homo Novissima.
    Nice recap I also think that her main goal in this life is to have mutants reach the Navissima status before humans (hence Krakoa, Resurrection and mutant biotech), as she must have probably already tried in Life 9 with the Chimeras. So she's not just removing Nimrod from the equation, but she wants mutants to work together as one now. Plus Charles introduced the new variable of Resurrection, also bringing Sinister in though.

  9. #369
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    The resurrection process seems to be Xavier's idea. Krakoa was probably her suggestion since it showed up first in Life 9 tho.

  10. #370
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    Something I don't understand from this thread.

    Several people don't think the mutants should separate themselves from humanity and form their own independent country. That there is hope for Xavier's dream!

    But what hope is there exactly? Moira even tested this by support Charles' dream fully in her 3rd life where they tried to cooperate and live the dream with humans, they were still exterminated by humans.

    We have just seen the humans building a genocidal weapon to exterminate mutants that the X-Men had to use deployed spies to get the intel on and stop it before it could be completed.
    Humans just tried to cure every mutant on the planet and get rid of any future occurrences of the X-Gene!
    Human governments have been engaging in mass detentions, experimentation, and executions of mutants to purge them from the population.

    I honestly don't understand what you are supposed to do when you face genocide on a global scale, how do you combat it? Do you just try to get good press and talk to these humans that keep trying to build mass genocidal weapons against your race?

    I honestly don't understand what the mutants are supposed to do in the face of the evils of the human race that are directed at them. In fact I think the only hope for mutant kind is to escape the Earth before the humans enact a lethal solution against them. I honestly don't think Charles and Erik went far enough, they should be trying to get off world as fast as possible because those islands are big giant targets for all the human governments of the world. Moira herself doesn't even think this plan will be successful, she thinks the humans are still going to win and kill them all, for Moira this is her last resort because she has tried every other option already.

    I am not sure how far the economic and political treaties will get them, they might be able to last for a few years but I think that the humans will actually try to conquer Krakoa so that they can control the drugs themselves and just take the mutants out of the equation entirely.

    In the face of the horrific evil directed at the mutants by the human race, what is the true solution to this problem? How do you save your people against this evil?
    Well, I think that the question becomes "how far do you go to save mutantkind?"

    Do you kill all the humans before they can kill you?

    But aren't humans the main source of new mutants? Can mutantkind continue to thrive if humankind was gone? Or would their numbers dwindle?

    So, since I don't think that Xavier's goal is to eliminate humankind, I think there must be some amount of coexistence of some kind. At least for the immediate future. Obviously, Moira's view is of a thousand year span.....so that's a bit different. She has co-opted his dream and redirected him to her goals....but are those the same? It's hard to say.

    It seems to me what they need to do is to prevent the rise of the post-human hybrids. So they'll continue to fight against the elements that lead to that.....which seems to be things like Sentinel tech, specifically Omega Sentinels and similar, and other merging of man and machine.

  11. #371
    Incredible Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuck frump View Post
    The resurrection process seems to be Xavier's idea. Krakoa was probably her suggestion since it showed up first in Life 9 tho.
    I don't remember very well, but did we see a Krakoan nation in Life 9 or just Cypher/Krakoa being merged? She probably got the idea from there and Xavier sent Doug to Krakoa in this life. To play stuff more differently (since the Krakoan nation being original to Life 10 would make more sense in that idea of handling stuff differently than previous lives).

  12. #372
    Moo-tant? Ultimate Rogue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by craybest View Post
    also witht he whole cloning pod thingies, does that mean that in te future we're going to see LOTS of X-deaths and it won't matter aynymore? I've never been a fan of deaths to be honest.
    I'm thinking now, that it wont go further than Hickmans run. This was his first chapter of three, iirc. The second chapter is his favorite.
    So we might be seeing more gratuitous deaths for a bit until it gets to the end of the saga.

    But who knows, the response of the fanbase may change outcomes/status quo going forward.

  13. #373
    Spectacular Member Leirus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    Something I don't understand from this thread.

    Several people don't think the mutants should separate themselves from humanity and form their own independent country. That there is hope for Xavier's dream!

    But what hope is there exactly? Moira even tested this by support Charles' dream fully in her 3rd life where they tried to cooperate and live the dream with humans, they were still exterminated by humans.

    We have just seen the humans building a genocidal weapon to exterminate mutants that the X-Men had to use deployed spies to get the intel on and stop it before it could be completed.
    Humans just tried to cure every mutant on the planet and get rid of any future occurrences of the X-Gene!
    Human governments have been engaging in mass detentions, experimentation, and executions of mutants to purge them from the population.

    I honestly don't understand what you are supposed to do when you face genocide on a global scale, how do you combat it? Do you just try to get good press and talk to these humans that keep trying to build mass genocidal weapons against your race?

    I honestly don't understand what the mutants are supposed to do in the face of the evils of the human race that are directed at them. In fact I think the only hope for mutant kind is to escape the Earth before the humans enact a lethal solution against them. I honestly don't think Charles and Erik went far enough, they should be trying to get off world as fast as possible because those islands are big giant targets for all the human governments of the world. Moira herself doesn't even think this plan will be successful, she thinks the humans are still going to win and kill them all, for Moira this is her last resort because she has tried every other option already.

    I am not sure how far the economic and political treaties will get them, they might be able to last for a few years but I think that the humans will actually try to conquer Krakoa so that they can control the drugs themselves and just take the mutants out of the equation entirely.

    In the face of the horrific evil directed at the mutants by the human race, what is the true solution to this problem? How do you save your people against this evil?
    Not putting all the eggs in the same basket would be a great start. No reason not to start colonies off world.

  14. #374
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    I don't remember very well, but did we see a Krakoan nation in Life 9 or just Cypher/Krakoa being merged? She probably got the idea from there and Xavier sent Doug to Krakoa in this life. To play stuff more differently (since the Krakoan nation being original to Life 10 would make more sense in that idea of handling stuff differently than previous lives).
    Notes that presumably detailed life 9 and how things got to where they were in X^2 talked about the fall of Krakoa. I would have to think that Krakoa as some sort of home base was a known element for it to be a big part of this life's plan.

  15. #375

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maestroneto View Post
    They made the goods themselves.
    And like anyone who makes a product, they can pick and choose who they sell it to. Countries have trade and patent agreements all over the world. Krakoa's pharmaceuticals are a negotiating tactic to get trade and peace treaty concessions. To me this was actually a really peaceful way to try and get the countries of the world to respect your newly formed nation and to attain peace treaties with as many people as possible.

    Note that Xavier and Erik sent Emma out to get treaties and to get UN recognition, she wasn't sent to threaten anyone, they asked her to use her political and economic connections to help get enough peace and trade treaties that Krakoa could achieve nation status in the United Nations. Emma only used her powers on one person, she nudged the Russian representative on the security council to abstain rather than veto so that the vote could actually proceed to the floor of the United Nations. Once in the General Assembly the vote to grant nation status to Krakoa was successful. Even considering that it is somewhat unethical for Emma to nudge the Russian ambassador, on the other side of the coin it's actually malicious and a little bit evil to use a single countries veto to block the nation status of another country. Russia voting for a veto is selfish move to continue the oppression and genocide of mutants, it wouldn't have been for any other reason.
    We are MUTANT..Krakoa, FOREVER!!! “Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité”

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