Powers of X #6 *spoilers*

[Daedra]

Apparently your just looking for someone to agree with you? IN story mutants aren't trying to better the humans and they aren't trying to fight them. So in story there is no reason for them to violate their own genetic self to turn into the very thing they don't want to be. Better?

They are avoiding being slaughtered by creating a safe space.

Now please stop putting your conjecture into the story.

I asked a question regarding the way mutant should react when push comes to shove, some people gave very interesting answers which I did enjoy reading, if you don't care for the subject it's fine, have a nice day!

[BroHomo]

I asked a question regarding the way mutant should react when push comes to shove, some people gave very interesting answers which I did enjoy reading, if you don't care for the subject it's fine, have a nice day!

Some could have taken "Why haven't Mutants used all the tech at at their disposal to avoid being slaughtered" as if you meant the Mutants should be using Shiar tech to launch a widespread attack on humanity

[ZeroBG82]

I disagree that Xavier’s dream contains this ‘manifest destiny’ style ‘fade away’ outlook. I don’t think Xavier ever saw it as a zero sum game. Many scientists would disagree that evolution has such a rule for hominids, and Xavier seemed to represent the perspective that we can all win.

Oh, I agree with you here. I don't think Xavier ever looked at the issue in those terms (possibly before now, if he this is how he's seeing things currently), and I don't think he would have agreed with the zero sum thesis prior to Moira's intervention. I was just extrapolating a potential outcome of Xavier's classic philosophy under the framework Hickman has presented of homo sapiens seemingly inevitable decline and fade away.

[Devaishwarya]

Agree with this mutants haven't been trying to get to fourth and fifth generation of mutants quicker. The easy way to explain it is whole generation of mutants like Franklin and Legion. It is has always been a race but mutants(the hare) never saw the need to try their hardest against humans(the tortoise). Humans took advantage of this win the race. Mutant(well Moria) is aware of this now and they are trying to slow down humans from getting to post human stage while they speed up to their next stage. The drugs extend human lives and keep them from getting sick is preventing them from using tech to do the same thing and thus slow them down reach the posthuman stage. Mutants are now buying time for themselves.

That's a notion about offering the Krakoan Drugs that I never considered...and is completely plausible when you really think about it in the grand context.
Xavier didn't HAVE to offer the drugs to humanity as a "bargaining chip".
Well...this certainly paints a new colour over my initial thoughts on Xavier and Erik's motives.

[JKtheMac]

Oh, I agree with you here. I don't think Xavier ever looked at the issue in those terms (possibly before now, if he this is how he's seeing things currently), and I don't think he would have agreed with the zero sum thesis prior to Moira's intervention. I was just extrapolating a potential outcome of Xavier's classic philosophy under the framework Hickman has presented of homo sapiens seemingly inevitable decline and fade away.

I totally get that, and mostly agree. The premise and the actions of many key players seems to assume a zero sum game. That doesn’t imply that Hickman sees it as a zero sum game, and I am drawing that fine distinction. You are not specifically saying that Hickman does see it like this and I acknowledge that.

We need to be careful not to assume what Hickman would have happen if Xavier’s dream became possible. The way you present it sounds very much like the philosophy of manifest destiny, in that his dream would be in place as the humans faded away, just as white settlers in the west of the US believed that the natives would simply fade away through natural means. I am pretty sure thats not how Hickman would present the dream.

It may indeed be the way certain humans in Orchis would see it.

[Daedra]

Some could have taken "Why haven't Mutants used all the tech at at their disposal to avoid being slaughtered" as if you meant the Mutants should be using Shiar tech to launch a widespread attack on humanity

no it wasn't my intent to propose such a thing, I'm not looking for ways to exterminate most of the human race but I do believe that if advanced killer robots came to your door to wipe you out, building some better robot to defend yourself would be worth a try considering all the tech and resources available to mutants, same goes for genetically enhanced super beings..... some way or the other the mutant race has to find a way to avoid ending up in internment camp or being wiped out by a legion of futuristic sentinels, it's a problem not unlike the one posed by nuclear weapons, sometimes a form of deterrence can go a long way.

[Hulkout42]

no it wasn't my intent to propose such a thing, I'm not looking for ways to exterminate most of the human race but I do believe that if advanced killer robots came to your door to wipe you out, building some better robot to defend yourself would be worth a try considering all the tech and resources available to mutants, same goes for genetically enhanced super beings..... some way or the other the mutant race has to find a way to avoid ending up in internment camp or being wiped out by a legion of futuristic sentinels, it's a problem not unlike the one posed by nuclear weapons, sometimes a form of deterrence can go a long way.

I believe their deterrents are the X-villains, then again in HoM they did have their own Sentinels and in IvX Forge did create Sentinels albeit under the influence of Frost so it is possible they could create their own bacth.

Also, I believe that we all caught up in the Nimrod thing too much because the Sentinels as it was revealed were never the biggest threat, not to say they aren't one just not the bigger one, the threat here is Homos Novissima which is a long ways off but still the major threat that Moira sought to stop. The Sentinels bought humanity time that was spent in ways to further tehir own development which in the case of life 6 they succeeded.

Then there is the drugs being issued to slow humanity down, personally i feel that extending the lifespans and healing the sick is how you dimisnish the need to reproduce and the need to advance thus a species will slowly go stagnant, perhaps that is the way they buy time for them to be ready for the future...not that it will help because they are taunting Murphy witht their whole "Let them try" which you someone will until the secret is out about what is really going on.

On a sidenote, do you think they have a kill on sight order for cyborgs like Karima or Lady Deathstrike/Reavers? I mean it is a forgone conclusion that Karima will be seen again but i do wonder about the later. Or what about Deathlok who has been a friend to them?

[ZeroBG82]

It may indeed be the way certain humans in Orchis would see it.

This is why the Librarian conversation is so interesting. After an age in which humanity turned away from mutants, sought to opress and destroy them, in the end the Librarian turns TO mutants. His evolution has reached a conclusion he isn't necessarily happy with, in ascension. And now he looks to mutants to offer a potential path forward towards a different outcome.

I feel like there is a potential there for a very Xavier solution. For humans and mutants to move forward together, bettering each other and opening the door for progress beyond their respective limitations. Symbiosis, rather than competition, perhaps.

It is, in essence, a refutation of the zero sum argument. In the face of the limits of human augmentation, the Librarian, for the first time, looks at mutants as an opportunity for humanity rather than an obstacle. A recognition perhaps that humans misunderstood the game and are worse off for it.

I'm very curious to see if any of the Dawn books pick up this thread.

[tuck frump]

no it wasn't my intent to propose such a thing, I'm not looking for ways to exterminate most of the human race but I do believe that if advanced killer robots came to your door to wipe you out, building some better robot to defend yourself would be worth a try considering all the tech and resources available to mutants, same goes for genetically enhanced super beings..... some way or the other the mutant race has to find a way to avoid ending up in internment camp or being wiped out by a legion of futuristic sentinels, it's a problem not unlike the one posed by nuclear weapons, sometimes a form of deterrence can go a long way.

Forge did try to build a pro mutant Sentinel to defend the remaining mutants after MDay. It was hijacked by Nimrod tho bc purely technological solutions arent reliable. As HoX pointed out, while Forge is the best mutant technopath, humans have far surpassed him in what they can invent.

[Daedra]

I believe their deterrents are the X-villains, then again in HoM they did have their own Sentinels and in IvX Forge did create Sentinels albeit under the influence of Frost so it is possible they could create their own bacth.

Also, I believe that we all caught up in the Nimrod thing too much because the Sentinels as it was revealed were never the biggest threat, not to say they aren't one just not the bigger one, the threat here is Homos Novissima which is a long ways off but still the major threat that Moira sought to stop. The Sentinels bought humanity time that was spent in ways to further tehir own development which in the case of life 6 they succeeded.

Then there is the drugs being issued to slow humanity down, personally i feel that extending the lifespans and healing the sick is how you dimisnish the need to reproduce and the need to advance thus a species will slowly go stagnant, perhaps that is the way they buy time for them to be ready for the future...not that it will help because they are taunting Murphy witht their whole "Let them try" which you someone will until the secret is out about what is really going on.

On a sidenote, do you think they have a kill on sight order for cyborgs like Karima or Lady Deathstrike/Reavers? I mean it is a forgone conclusion that Karima will be seen again but i do wonder about the later. Or what about Deathlok who has been a friend to them?

So far it looks like they just take issues with artificial A.I. created with the express purpose to deal with genetic "deviations" from what's considered baseline but artificial intelligence can be just as friendly and helpful depending on the conclusion reached by the sentient machine itself...... not sure they are going to adopt a scorched earth approach to the issue but they seems to prefer technology based on organic tech just to be on the safe side.
Homo novissima can be an issue only if the mutant decide to avoid taking charge of their own evolution but a future where humans start to design their own evolutionary path cannot be avoided in my opinion (and that may be truth even in a non comic-book reality), it's a road full of ethical question marks for sure, limiting the discussion to the 616 fictional reality my guess is that somehow If attacked from enhanced humans genetically superior to them homo superior will have to find a way to cope with the issue and the stuff from life 9 involving chimeras seems to be the obvious answer, it was stated to be quite effective until Sinister decided to betray them all, they better keep an eye on him this time, even better? find a way to do it all without him!

[Devaishwarya]

Forge did try to build a pro mutant Sentinel to defend the remaining mutants after MDay. It was hijacked by Nimrod tho bc purely technological solutions arent reliable. As HoX pointed out, while Forge is the best mutant technopath, humans have far surpassed him in what they can invent.

And that's probably why he's assiduously developing and engineering new bio-technologies in/for Krakoa.

[JB]

That's a notion about offering the Krakoan Drugs that I never considered...and is completely plausible when you really think about it in the grand context.
Xavier didn't HAVE to offer the drugs to humanity as a "bargaining chip".
Well...this certainly paints a new colour over my initial thoughts on Xavier and Erik's motives.

And wouldn't it be something if the drugs to cure the diseases of the mind would help gently dissolve the hatred some humans have for mutants. Interesting stuff.

[jwatson]

I asked a question regarding the way mutant should react when push comes to shove, some people gave very interesting answers which I did enjoy reading, if you don't care for the subject it's fine, have a nice day!

And i answered the question. You didn't like my answer went into everything else when it really wasn't neccessary. When push comes to shove mutants are creating a safe space rather than genetically changing themselves. Which is no different than someone changing their color because they are being persecuted. You felt i was being personal but in fact it was a simple analogy which can easily be applied in universe to characters of colors just as easily as the real world. What's important here is not to make it so personal. Sometimes idea won't agree with yours and sometimes they will flat out defy yours but it's ok, it's not that serious.

[Daedra]

And i answered the question. You didn't like my answer went into everything else when it really wasn't neccessary. When push comes to shove mutants are creating a safe space rather than genetically changing themselves. Which is no different than someone changing their color because they are being persecuted. You felt i was being personal but in fact it was a simple analogy which can easily be applied in universe to characters of colors just as easily as the real world. What's important here is not to make it so personal. Sometimes idea won't agree with yours and sometimes they will flat out defy yours but it's ok, it's not that serious.

I just don't think the example of someone changing his own skin colors really fits the question I was asking, It seems pointless because it does not make someone any more capable of defending krakoa, chimeras on the other end or apocalypse celestial tech can give some mutants the power boost required to better defend "the designated" safe place when bigots an racists show up willing to destroy it. I was thinking along the lines of enhancing mutants nature not denying it altogether which when applied to skin color or sexual preferences is really horrible.

[JKtheMac]

And i answered the question. You didn't like my answer went into everything else when it really wasn't neccessary. When push comes to shove mutants are creating a safe space rather than genetically changing themselves. Which is no different than someone changing their color because they are being persecuted. You felt i was being personal but in fact it was a simple analogy which can easily be applied in universe to characters of colors just as easily as the real world. What's important here is not to make it so personal. Sometimes idea won't agree with yours and sometimes they will flat out defy yours but it's ok, it's not that serious.

And, an honest appraisal of a story is by necessity personal.