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  1. #76
    Spectacular Member DoomScribe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    I read it. There appears to be an attempt to balance good qualities and not-so-good qualities in Doom. He respects some others but won't put up with any crap or anything approaching disrespect. He has strong examples of pettiness which went a bit too far for me, but that seems to be an aspect of Doom Marvel wants to portray.
    ...

    Doom's certainly handled better than he was in Slott's story. Although I wish he had been a bit more subtle in his handling of Steve. That was my biggest problem with the issue. I'm on board for the arc anyway. Good start.
    I get why they did it that way, a fast and easy way of saying "This is Doom. See him do bad things to people." But in the day and age of instant communication and more so, wouldn't it be more fun if Doom had destroyed the hapless Steve financially, went after his reputation with some well placed accusations, and then had him have a suitable "accident", all the while planting a slightly fanciful conspiracy theory that Doom was behind Steve's misfortune all along, with just enough truth behind it to look plausible, but crazy enough to keep people guessing. That would have been just so Bad to be good.

    Overall, the story was good and I think it's a good start. Glad to hear that the sales were better than expected. Looking forward to more Doom!
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  2. #77
    Keeper of the Torch Ravin' Ray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoomScribe View Post
    But in the day and age of instant communication and more so, wouldn't it be more fun if Doom had destroyed the hapless Steve financially, went after his reputation with some well placed accusations, and then had him have a suitable "accident"…
    This reminds me in some ways of Doom's Original Sin story where a guy who attempted to blackmail Doom had all of his associates and his ex one by one either die "accidentally" or suffer some form of ruin or tragedy, until he faced Doom himself which is where the story ended. Just goes to show how extensive and subtle Doom's reach could be.
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  3. #78
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravin' Ray View Post
    This reminds me in some ways of Doom's Original Sin story where a guy who attempted to blackmail Doom had all of his associates and his ex one by one either die "accidentally" or suffer some form of ruin or tragedy, until he faced Doom himself which is where the story ended. Just goes to show how extensive and subtle Doom's reach could be.
    I'm reminded of Kingpin's assault on Daredevil at the start of the Redemption arc. That was a job as total as the OS story for Doom. The problem, as I think most of us realize, is not that the payback was too harsh, but that it was too plain and simplistic for Doom. Something to make Steve a blithering idiot on the air would have been much more Doom-worthy.

  4. #79
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    I read it. There appears to be an attempt to balance good qualities and not-so-good qualities in Doom. He respects some others but won't put up with any crap or anything approaching disrespect. He has strong examples of pettiness which went a bit too far for me, but that seems to be an aspect of Doom Marvel wants to portray.

    As to the main plot, it's about freaking time some of Marvel's mega-science dudes tried to fix problems. I wonder if Doom really thinks the system on the Moon won't work or if he's just playing anti-Reed (and Tony). Doom's being framed and that in itself is a good way to go. Putting Vic in a position where he has to react eliminates a lot of the morality problems a villain book. Doom's actions were surprising, but in looking at them, I think that's probably his best bet of absolving himself of this situation.

    Doom's certainly handled better than he was in Slott's story. Although I wish he had been a bit more subtle in his handling of Steve. That was my biggest problem with the issue. I'm on board for the arc anyway. Good start.
    I'm glad you liked it. You know I did check out some of the Youtube reviews and a couple of review columns on various sites. But couple of them had a complaint that I thought didn't make much sense. They said the story was " all over the place" or views of that nature. I liked it because there were a lot of things confronting Doom. It reminded me of Byrne's all Doom Fantastic Four #257, the only difference being that the time span was over several weeks instead of just a day or two in Byrne's story.

    I was thinking how Doom really makes a lot of sense being wary of the black hole solution. Look how that worked out in "Event Horizon"...it actually opened a gateway to Hell.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ravin' Ray View Post
    This reminds me in some ways of Doom's Original Sin story where a guy who attempted to blackmail Doom had all of his associates and his ex one by one either die "accidentally" or suffer some form of ruin or tragedy, until he faced Doom himself which is where the story ended. Just goes to show how extensive and subtle Doom's reach could be.
    Yes, I remember that story. I imagine that guy is in a pretty bad place too

    I might be wrong but I think the scene showing Steve's predicament might be Cantwell's using a bit of dark, twisted bit of comedy. I can't imagine how Doom could get away with kidnapping, false imprisonment and torture that without it becoming an international incident.

  5. #80
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    I'm glad you liked it. You know I did check out some of the Youtube reviews and a couple of review columns on various sites. But couple of them had a complaint that I thought didn't make much sense. They said the story was " all over the place" or views of that nature. I liked it because there were a lot of things confronting Doom. It reminded me of Byrne's all Doom Fantastic Four #257, the only difference being that the time span was over several weeks instead of just a day or two in Byrne's story.

    I was thinking how Doom really makes a lot of sense being wary of the black hole solution. Look how that worked out in "Event Horizon"...it actually opened a gateway to Hell.
    Great points about the juggling nature of Doom's day to day activities. I read that, accepted it, and didn't even realize it was great writing because it made sense. He would have multiple issues going on at once. Going back to other examples of this, the wayFrank Miller handled Nick Fury in Elektra Assassin was like that with Nick being on the phone with a US Senator and testing some bigass device.

    I'm not even going to try to fanwank Steve's punishment.

    A major point is also Doom's distrust of the black hole device. It's perfectly OK if he is merely jealous of Reed and Tony, or if he actually has scientific reasoning against the solution and not just a bad feeling. I can also accept his not wanting to waste time on scientific reasoning when his audience isn't likely to be able to follow it. (cue American education system rant)

    I think this was what a first issue needed to be. A display of facets of the main character, a mystery (or more) set up, and a surprise that makes sense. The last being Doom's surrender. A Doom book is a tough call. Infamous had Victor trying to be a hero, but he's backed away from this. Doom can't really be a mustache twirling villain because he isn't (or shouldn't be). He's reacting to an antagonist's actions and that does a good job of placing him in the protagonist's role.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    Great points about the juggling nature of Doom's day to day activities. I read that, accepted it, and didn't even realize it was great writing because it made sense. He would have multiple issues going on at once. Going back to other examples of this, the wayFrank Miller handled Nick Fury in Elektra Assassin was like that with Nick being on the phone with a US Senator and testing some bigass device.

    I'm not even going to try to fanwank Steve's punishment.

    A major point is also Doom's distrust of the black hole device. It's perfectly OK if he is merely jealous of Reed and Tony, or if he actually has scientific reasoning against the solution and not just a bad feeling. I can also accept his not wanting to waste time on scientific reasoning when his audience isn't likely to be able to follow it. (cue American education system rant)

    I think this was what a first issue needed to be. A display of facets of the main character, a mystery (or more) set up, and a surprise that makes sense. The last being Doom's surrender. A Doom book is a tough call. Infamous had Victor trying to be a hero, but he's backed away from this. Doom can't really be a mustache twirling villain because he isn't (or shouldn't be). He's reacting to an antagonist's actions and that does a good job of placing him in the protagonist's role.
    I think that is why to this day I don't like Mark Waid's Doom in his Fantastic Four run and now Dan Slott's recent stuff. Both seem to want to stay locked into a Doom from decades ago. When you look back at that and his other arc, Authoritative Action, is was like Waid completely destroyed everything about the character and had him commit a version of suicide by cop where he goaded Interestingly, Waid hasn't really revisited the character to any great extent. But you do get a kind of whiplash effect when you read versions that disregard anything that doesn't fit in whatever version they want to write.

    On a side note, I finally figured out what it was about the name Larin that made me wonder where had I seen that name before...



    Then I finally remembered from Books of Doom

    So it looks like Doom finally let Larin out of the dungeon so he would take care of Boris. Boris was in charge of that special cell block. I suppose the female reporter is still there! Maybe Steve will be the next "guest"




  7. #82
    Spectacular Member DoomScribe's Avatar
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    Good catch, IM.

    I was more curious about the name he chose for Boris' daughter - "Petra" - and how young she is compared to the original daughter Valeria (who was described as Boris' granddaughter at one time, insofar as I recall). But age in Marvel comics is hard to follow in any logical sense. She's married with three kids, so she could be anywhere from 25 to 40, but looks very young. Valeria in Waid's "Unthinkable" looked to be a grandmother.

    Unthinkable valeria2.jpg
    Last edited by DoomScribe; 10-20-2019 at 02:24 PM.
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  8. #83
    Keeper of the Torch Ravin' Ray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    One of the few times Doom's original costume with the cowl instead of cape is shown. Has there ever been a figure of Doom wearing that made?
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  9. #84
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravin' Ray View Post
    One of the few times Doom's original costume with the cowl instead of cape is shown. Has there ever been a figure of Doom wearing that made?
    Not that I know of, unless someone made themself a custom like with Doom 2099 figures I've seen posted around. That is one statue or action figure I would love to see one day.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoomScribe View Post
    Good catch, IM.

    I was more curious about the name he chose for Boris' daughter - "Petra" - and how young she is compared to the original daughter Valeria (who was described as Boris' granddaughter at one time, insofar as I recall). But age in Marvel comics is hard to follow in any logical sense. She's married with three kids, so she could be anywhere from 25 to 40, but looks very young. Valeria in Waid's "Unthinkable" looked to be a grandmother.

    Unthinkable valeria2.jpg
    I remember being suspicious of the version of Valeria we saw in Unthinkable because of those panels. She looks nothing like her previous appearance in Marvel Superheroes #20 or Incredible Hulk 143-144



    And I am still not sure what her relationship is to Boris. I think it is granddaughter but that is only because that is in some of the wiki stuff out there.

  11. #86
    Spectacular Member Coatl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    On a side note, I finally figured out what it was about the name Larin that made me wonder where had I seen that name before...



    Then I finally remembered from Books of Doom

    So it looks like Doom finally let Larin out of the dungeon so he would take care of Boris. Boris was in charge of that special cell block. I suppose the female reporter is still there! Maybe Steve will be the next "guest"

    OMG

    So that's why I thought I have heard that name before.

    I originally thought that he could have been another son of Boris that I couldn't remember, since as has been mentioned Petra looks too young to be Valeria's mother, let's not even talk about how sometimes is regarded as Boris granddaughter.

    About the female reporter I don't think that she is in the dungeon, since in the issue Doom ask specifically for Steve so, maybe the other two gets a free pass, maybe found him more annoying or is just using him to give an example.

    About the appearance of Valeria in unthinkable, let's agree that there's is a lot of stuff that doesn't make sense in that arc.

    As has been posted before the looks of Valeria were usually those of a woman younger than Victor himself, has appeared not long ago as mature/young woman and even after that she was portrayed as a woman not older than Susan in the HoM alternative reality.

    Back to Boris, he seems to have been a grandpa since Doom were a child, how old is he supposed to be? I somewhat remember a old theory about Boris being kept alive by Doom sorcery since he has already lived like a hundred years as an old men.
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  12. #87
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    I recall when reading Unthinkable at the time "Who was this woman who says she is Valeria" and why does Doom think she is? I thought there was going to be some twist to that but no. She is still considered to to be dead. I was a bit disappointed that Hickman didn't have Doom bring her back in Secret Wars and used a Susan from one of the other remaining universes. I like the suggestion for a future story to have Doom reclaim her from Hell. IMO she had an unnatural death. The demons took her down to the Netherworld and IIRC they consumed her. I recall seeing some bones! That was pretty ghastly and another reason why I don't like Waid's Unthinkable. Even if Valeria didn't admit she still had feelings for Victor, she and Boris were pretty much the only family he had left, if not by blood but because I think Boris was a fatherly figure to him at that age. I imagine he may have traveled with them because he was still a child when his father died.

    As to Boris's age....that is hard to say. I have think at least 80s??

    Oh, sorry not to be clear but I was referring to the other female reporter that appears towards the end of Books of Doom. She's probably still in the dungeon!


  13. #88
    Spectacular Member DoomScribe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravin' Ray View Post
    One of the few times Doom's original costume with the cowl instead of cape is shown. Has there ever been a figure of Doom wearing that made?
    Classic Marvel Characters Dr Doom #5.jpg
    Classic Marvel Characters, Dr. Doom #5 ... this was based on a pin-up in an early FF special. As close as we get to any figures from early design days for Doom.
    Fantastic Four King-Size Special 8.jpg
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  14. #89
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    So Boris is an old guy. That can easily be put into continuity and not be any problem. 80s sounds very reasonable.

    Valeria is Boris' granddaughter and was the beloved of Victor. We could slice generations down to 20 years and place Valeria at 40 if she was still alive. That puts her in line with Sue and leaves both Vic and Reed off the sex offenders list.

    Now Petra, who is Boris' daughter. Petra could be Boris' youngest daughter. This allows her to be much closer to Valeria in age and conceivably younger than her. I actually went to school with a niece and uncle pair where the uncle was six months younger than his niece. Or Petra's in her forties and just looks good. Boris could have easily had a second younger wife.

    I think I have all the characters straight but I will have to finish getting the Books of Doom. I may have to go digital on those.

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