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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Feely_ View Post
    DC comics entire publishing line has been retrofitted to accommodate Superman & Lois Lane.

    Glad we can agree.
    Linda and Wally's marriage was erased from existence. The Batman/Catwoman wedding was infamously chickened out of. Half the time the company can't even decide if Arthur and Mera are married. And there's the fiasco with Kate Kane and Maggie Sawyer.

    One marriage being restored among dozens of others either being ended, nixed or erased does not mean anything.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    It seems to me that Forbes isn't giving the whole picture. Yes, superhero books don't do as well in bookstores. There's more competition there. But DC and Marvel have a special relationship with the direct sales comic shops--where they are up against less competition. So sure they could diversify and make comics for all tastes, which would appeal to bookstore consumers--but they would face greater competition in the bookstores (brick & mortar and online bookstores), because you can have every kind of book at these outlets. In the comicshops, you mostly can only get certain kinds of books--so that gives DC and Marvel the advantage there. And because everyone knows DC and Marvel as super-hero publishers now, consumers likely only go to them for that kind of material--and if readers want something else they'll look at offerings from other publishers.

    I'd like DC to change its ways and go back to the wide range of genres they used to offer, but I don't see the economic advantage for them to do that. They are a bigger fish in a smaller pond if they mainly stick with the super-heroes. If they got into a bigger pond, they would likely get swallowed up.
    Its a pretty garbage article all round.

    I find this hard to believe
    "After comic books vanished from newsstands in the early 1980s" . I was buying newsstand versions of usa comics in uk in early 90s.

    And by time something like court of owls goes into the bookshop its already sold over 150k (comic shops + digital + dcbs) and grossed $2million which author conveniently forgets.

  3. #48
    Incredible Member Gurz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Linda and Wally's marriage was erased from existence. The Batman/Catwoman wedding was infamously chickened out of. Half the time the company can't even decide if Arthur and Mera are married. And there's the fiasco with Kate Kane and Maggie Sawyer.

    One marriage being restored among dozens of others either being ended, nixed or erased does not mean anything.
    Chill with your Marriage craze dude, a ''cool'' character is a single character who spreads the seed all over the town... lol


    If super heroes are ending, that's good. I'm sick tired of these bastards, when you think about them, they are all bunch of brute mindless evil ***** who shoved down your throud as good people lol
    Bad bad boy with a bad bad girl in a bad bad world.
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  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    The problem isn't political content . The problem is its lack nuances in portrayals or narrative.
    And that's another point of debate, as to how much political portrayals or narratives require nuance so that readers don't move away. If many stop buying a comic that's consistently overtly political, then does one blame the readers for being short-sighted in not agreeing with the politics the writer is offering, or does the responsibility lay more with the writer for not writing the politics in the comic well to begin with?

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Linda and Wally's marriage was erased from existence. The Batman/Catwoman wedding was infamously chickened out of. Half the time the company can't even decide if Arthur and Mera are married. And there's the fiasco with Kate Kane and Maggie Sawyer.

    One marriage being restored among dozens of others either being ended, nixed or erased does not mean anything.
    Dozens.

    LoL.

    You're hilarious.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I think the poster was talking about DC not Marvel.
    I thought we were talking superhero comics.

    Like the article in question refers to.

    Anyhoo; g'night troops.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    Oda has been saying that he was going to end One Piece years, and years, and years. As far as 2004 that I myself can recall. I don't see it happening next year or the following. And when he does finish it, he or his publisher may as well decide that they want to following the story and characters somehow: it has happened with another big hit like Dragon Ball.

    I don't think that's much different than a run of a writer in our superhero comics, really. The diference usually (I think, this is my opinion) is the level of control that a creative has over his work. With new characters in superhero american comics, creators didn't say much up until 40 years ago or so, and only have a better control of them nowadays. Which means that publishers can keep publishing stories for those characters as much as they want. Same as certain corporative works in Japan (like, again Gundam. Of all the things that I know, is the one that works more similarly. But there are more, most of them carried from TV and videogames, where the creators were less protected, or maybe the word is respected)

    It's a business, and finding best sellers isn't science and relies a lot in luck. I can't blame them.

    In the end, what would matter is what the potential buyer would think. I see One Piece never ending, and with a ton of trades to catch on, and I am not going to start buying it. I could say the same with Dragon Ball or the spin offs of Attack on Titan (I started buying the main series at the begining, but am seriously starting to regret it. I hope it does end soon). But people is still buying OP a lot, for some reason.

    I think that if publishers gave more control to the creators over lines of characters for more than a run, that could help to make readers less fearful of starting them. But only a little bit. Most manga readers that I've asked about reading superhero comics have answered me that they don't read them because they can't believe that in a shared universe, other superheroes don't show up earlier to save the day; that they don't like the art and prefer the style in manga; and that they, overall, don't like superheroes or what those stories tell. And I'm always trying to make them read my comics (comics I think are very good, because quality should shine over everything else). I know a lot of people (and kids, I'm a teacher) and rarely have success between only manga readers. I do a lot better with general sci fi and fantasy fans.
    One Piece will end one day. Even if this is only, because the writer will stop to write one day. His spin-offs would need his permission.

    In the case of certain corporative works in Japan, they don't usually have the same characters all the time. For example: Gundam frachise changes his protagonists for its different seasons.


    That doesn't happen in superhero comics, because characters like Batman or Superman need to be eternal and constantly be used.
    Last edited by Konja7; 10-10-2019 at 02:50 PM.

  8. #53
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    One Piece will end one day. Even if this is only, because the writer will stop to write one day. His spin-offs need his permission.

    That wouldn't happen in comics, because these characters need to be eternal.
    And they're not owned by any one person.
    "There's magic in the sound of analog audio." - CNET.

  9. #54
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batnbreakfast View Post
    Unless you are reading comics for different stories not handled in TV, movies or novels. Relationships are done better in other mediums. Now that I think of it that's what keeps me from reading Batman these days.
    Romance comics sold just as good as, if not better than, superheroes in the '50s.
    "There's magic in the sound of analog audio." - CNET.

  10. #55
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    From people I've talked to, Marvel and DC superhero comics don't seem to appeal much to kids and teens. I can make educated conjecture on why this is, but the truth is I don't entirely know why. They don't entirely know why. It's probably not something they sit around thinking about. They often just don't have any interest in them. I guess it's the same reason why I don't watch cooking shows. I'm just...not terribly interested. Not that I have anything against them. They're just not on my radar.

    Well, damn, I'm not really that into DC and Marvel superhero comics these days, and I can tell you why.

    a) If the stories aren't centered around some usually absurd event that involved the ENTIRE universe just about, and that is WAY too demanding and difficult to follow, and is usually not even good, they don't seem to matter at all, almost to the point where the stories are throw away filer. Strong relationships aren't formed in the characters own book and stories. Big events, like deaths, don't happen in the characters' own books. They are often reserved for dumb events. Like Heroes in Crisis, or whatever. I don't like those events. The stories in them are ALWAYS bad and I don't want to read all the content associated with them.

    b) Mmm...You know, the art is often not all that good. It's not bad, it's done by people who CAN draw, but I find it often rushed and uninspired. I can sympathize with the artists, however. They're working under ridiculous conditions to put out good work. I can tell you the ins and outs of what goes into a comic book page from personal experience, and...even just doing the pencils for one page every single day is pretty stupid. You have two choices in this scenario. You will either meet your deadlines and put out rushed, uninspired work, or you will be late.

    c) Bad editing makes it so nothing you read really matters. The next run...which will probably happen in a year, or maybe 2 years tops, will completely sweep aside whatever you're reading. Supporting cast will disappear, developments will be like they never even happened, the character you're reading now might be replaced by some totally different character, and so on. It just gives me a whole "why do I even bother?" feeling.

    I could go on and on, but I'll stop here.
    I adore the comics medium, but I honestly find these DC and Marvel comics and the way they operate to be dumb as ef.
    I also think comics also suffer from adults not wanting to share the medium with kids. It's like they're afraid one kid reading a comic will lead to My Little Pony being a JLA team.

    Similar to what we started to see happen when Grand Theft Auto 3 and 4 were big. Adult video gamers started pushing kids to Nintendo so they could claim the PS3s and Xboxes for themselves. As a result games for consoles have been getting more adult.
    I think I'll call it 'All-Age-o-Phobia'. The fear of not being edgy.
    "There's magic in the sound of analog audio." - CNET.

  11. #56
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    And that’s interesting, because Dan Didio said something about how the older DC stuff was selling more than the new stuff:

    “We do these Facsimile Editions where we reprint older issues of comics including all the old ads and stuff…and in some cases these are selling more than the new comics with these characters. People are more interested in buying the stories from 30 or 40 years ago than the contemporary stories, and that’s a failure on us.” - https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/07...-dc-publishes/
    He has a 'glass half empty' view of it that's a bit biased, if you ask me.

    It could also be a testament to the quality of the work from 30 and 40 years ago. Something they should be proud of, and celebrate.

    Instead, they feel threatened.
    "There's magic in the sound of analog audio." - CNET.

  12. #57
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Feely_ View Post
    Powers of X just literally ended in a giant Burning Man style party.

    Feel like we're confusing unhappiness with conflict. Dramatic storytelling - all storytelling - is driven by conflict. Hero wants something: obstacles prevent that. Rinse, repeat.

    Some of it can get depressing though, I would agree. Bendis Daredevil immediately springs to mind.
    Yeah, from what I've seen, DC (or maybe just Didio)'s idea of 'heroes can't be happy' translates as 'a neverending shadow of some tragedy that follows the hero wherever they go'. Not a temporary crisis that a story conflict provides.
    With them, the 'unhappiness' is part of the character's permanent traits.

    When I read Sherlock Holmes, James Bond or Doc Savage, it isn't some negative, depressing character trait that keeps me interested or makes me want to check out a book.
    It's that the hero is generally good, if not better than myself, and shows me someone better than myself facing an nigh-impossible obstacle and overcoming it while moving around in a unique world that interests me.

    DC is bogging the characters down too much with gloom thinking that's what makes good stories.
    Meanwhile, the villains are getting better treatment than the heroes.
    "There's magic in the sound of analog audio." - CNET.

  13. #58
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    Oda has been saying that he was going to end One Piece years, and years, and years. As far as 2004 that I myself can recall. I don't see it happening next year or the following. And when he does finish it, he or his publisher may as well decide that they want to following the story and characters somehow: it has happened with another big hit like Dragon Ball.

    I don't think that's much different than a run of a writer in our superhero comics, really. The diference usually (I think, this is my opinion) is the level of control that a creative has over his work. With new characters in superhero american comics, creators didn't say much up until 40 years ago or so, and only have a better control of them nowadays. Which means that publishers can keep publishing stories for those characters as much as they want. Same as certain corporative works in Japan (like, again Gundam. Of all the things that I know, is the one that works more similarly. But there are more, most of them carried from TV and videogames, where the creators were less protected, or maybe the word is respected)

    It's a business, and finding best sellers isn't science and relies a lot in luck. I can't blame them.

    In the end, what would matter is what the potential buyer would think. I see One Piece never ending, and with a ton of trades to catch on, and I am not going to start buying it. I could say the same with Dragon Ball or the spin offs of Attack on Titan (I started buying the main series at the begining, but am seriously starting to regret it. I hope it does end soon). But people is still buying OP a lot, for some reason.

    I think that if publishers gave more control to the creators over lines of characters for more than a run, that could help to make readers less fearful of starting them. But only a little bit. Most manga readers that I've asked about reading superhero comics have answered me that they don't read them because they can't believe that in a shared universe, other superheroes don't show up earlier to save the day; that they don't like the art and prefer the style in manga; and that they, overall, don't like superheroes or what those stories tell. And I'm always trying to make them read my comics (comics I think are very good, because quality should shine over everything else). I know a lot of people (and kids, I'm a teacher) and rarely have success between only manga readers. I do a lot better with general sci fi and fantasy fans.
    You do know that one of the criticism leveled at one piece is it's length. You might think as an outsider it is a never ending tale but it isn't. I am a regular reader. It's going to end. We are at wano. Major islands now left are whitebeard's home where ace is buried, elbaf,road poneglyph islands, laftel that's about it. Oda's promise is taking this long only cause of the pacing and intricate world building oda does. Nothing else. Like every other manga, one piece will end. Its just the way it is.

    No, he has never said it was going to end in 2004. He only said his original idea was short manga that ended with alabasta arc tieing everything up. His editors were like this thing is a hit, "so maybe we should lengthen it. But, with main plot being the same". Then oda was like, "well, i have been thinking of this from when i was highschooler.i will add in the seven warlords my other ideas". After that he decided to do long running series with an end.

    Batman and one piece has no comparisons. One piece is a singular vision. If there is no oda there is no one piece. Nobody on earth can handle that world like oda does. His health isn't that great either.one piece has clear set plot points that will be addressed and. End like all good things. Sure, the franchise might be continued by toei. I don't think it will work as the original, if oda isn't involved . The original will always be set apart or thrown in to the trash like gt.

    Dragon ball was continued by toei. Gt was non-canon and is considered non-canon . Many, don't even cosider db super canon, because of the lack of direct involvement of toriyama and series book end. The only reason it's considered canon is because toriyama is the guy that behind overall Plot. He was directly involved with his take on the broly, which was wayyy different from the non-canon broly.

    A run has restrictions.a writer has to takeup and carry on forward what another has left behind. He has to work in confines of status quo and cannot contradict the world/appearance in other books(shared universes has its disadvantage) . That is not how mangas are. Manga are like stand alon e tv series or movies. Thay all end. Sure, there are ones that are similar to American comics like detective conan or KochiKame or gundam like you mentioned. Even, they are very much seasonal with season end point. But, even these can truly end and have ended as well. KochiKame ended in 2016 and it started in 1976. The only way comics act similarly is when they do standalone out of continuity series like dark knight returns, watchmen(which is been made to continue. Might not count ) or all star superman.

    Most of the spinoff that has no connection to the author is considered non-canon and always considered trash or filler. People buy one piece cause its serialised and has clear ending. Ofcourse, its the world building that attracted people the best. One piece as world is nothing you could ever imagine from a single author. You can't understand into one piece without reading it fully.there aren't anything like jumping on points. Sure, there anime condensed movies of each arc. Beyond that there isn't anyway you could hope to understand what's going on.

    Artstyle of a manga is decided by the mangaka based on the story he wants to tell as well. As a regular manga reader, the only reason i couldn't get into comics is because. I didn't know how to. I didn't understand various versions of same characters . Always thought superman was like the guy i grew up always. I decided to stay a casual . This was during late 00's. I had zero Ideas of reboots and retcons other nonsense. Mainly, i had trouble adapting to what is considered "canon" from what is considered canon in manga. In manga its clear cut, any story creators have direct involvement is canon. But, in comics that isn't really a thing. Then i finally decided go full in during new 52. I hated the status quo and the world. Decided to explore more.
    For me, my mindset for comics was and still is more exploratory in nature. While, for mangas I don't have to be that.
    Edit-pardon me for missing words and spelling.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 10-11-2019 at 12:52 AM.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Stone View Post
    I also think comics also suffer from adults not wanting to share the medium with kids. It's like they're afraid one kid reading a comic will lead to My Little Pony being a JLA team.
    That is the MAIN issue.

    What adults like or CLAIM to like differs from what kids and noncomic book store buyers like.

    Right now the issue for publishers and lets face it this is a Marvel & DC issue. I would say Archie, Aftermath, Action Lab, Valiant, Ahoy, Black Mask, Avatar, whatever name Lion Forge/Oni Press go by, Dark Horse, Boom, IDW, Titan Comics and MAYBE Image (Mark Millar projects, Walking Dead, Spawn, Saga & Bitter Root are the exceptions) don't have this issue.

    For certain titles under these guys-they don't rely solely on the direct market. They have books that are GUARANTEED to have shelf space at places like Barnes & Nobles & public libraries.

    DC & Marvel don't have that luxury with a lot of their books.
    Batman will never have that issue. He'll be in both places.

    For DC to get readers you have to do stuff with all those guys on tv shows and movies. You can't have a Black Lightning show & NO books.
    Do that show by getting someone that the novel world and PARENTS know of.
    Don't believe me?
    Before we got that movie-Coates names was helping Black Panther.
    Gabby Rivera's name allowed America Chavez's book to last longer than it SHOULD have.
    Jason Reynolds doing Miles Morales's novel got him more exposure than his own comic.
    Brian Yee's name helped those New Superman trades sell a little better.
    See Raven's OGN-Kami Garica's named helped.
    Shuri is getting a novel-her writer Nic Stone is WELL known.
    These names assure you of shelf space and AUTOMATIC sales at schools & libraries.

    DC (and ESPECIALLY Marvel) has to get to the point of not everyone needs a floppy.

    What good is a Cyborg floppy that no one orders? Give that slot to someone like Ronnie Raymond. Cyborg helps DC better as an OGN. Because his fans are KIDS. Same with John Stewart, Wally, Batman Beyond, Vixen, everybody on Legends of Tomorrow.
    And you can make that material more kid friendly. Leaving the comics to the adults. Cyborg can do "adult" things in comics and be teen/kid friendly in his OGN.

    Pretty much what Marvel is doing at IDW.

  15. #60
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    That is the MAIN issue.

    What adults like or CLAIM to like differs from what kids and noncomic book store buyers like.

    Right now the issue for publishers and lets face it this is a Marvel & DC issue. I would say Archie, Aftermath, Action Lab, Valiant, Ahoy, Black Mask, Avatar, whatever name Lion Forge/Oni Press go by, Dark Horse, Boom, IDW, Titan Comics and MAYBE Image (Mark Millar projects, Walking Dead, Spawn, Saga & Bitter Root are the exceptions) don't have this issue.

    For certain titles under these guys-they don't rely solely on the direct market. They have books that are GUARANTEED to have shelf space at places like Barnes & Nobles & public libraries.

    DC & Marvel don't have that luxury with a lot of their books.
    Batman will never have that issue. He'll be in both places.

    For DC to get readers you have to do stuff with all those guys on tv shows and movies. You can't have a Black Lightning show & NO books.
    Do that show by getting someone that the novel world and PARENTS know of.
    Don't believe me?
    Before we got that movie-Coates names was helping Black Panther.
    Gabby Rivera's name allowed America Chavez's book to last longer than it SHOULD have.
    Jason Reynolds doing Miles Morales's novel got him more exposure than his own comic.
    Brian Yee's name helped those New Superman trades sell a little better.
    See Raven's OGN-Kami Garica's named helped.
    Shuri is getting a novel-her writer Nic Stone is WELL known.
    These names assure you of shelf space and AUTOMATIC sales at schools & libraries.

    DC (and ESPECIALLY Marvel) has to get to the point of not everyone needs a floppy.

    What good is a Cyborg floppy that no one orders? Give that slot to someone like Ronnie Raymond. Cyborg helps DC better as an OGN. Because his fans are KIDS. Same with John Stewart, Wally, Batman Beyond, Vixen, everybody on Legends of Tomorrow.
    And you can make that material more kid friendly. Leaving the comics to the adults. Cyborg can do "adult" things in comics and be teen/kid friendly in his OGN.

    Pretty much what Marvel is doing at IDW.
    Something else that shaped my theory is how comic shops will have a 'kid' section, mostly with Archie and what the publishers think would be 'kid-friendly', which translates to something that artistically looks so simplistic that adults don't feel threatened.
    Meanwhile, if I was a 10 or 12 year old, I would feel insulted. I read much better quality comics when I was a kid. Comics that many adults still read today.

    There's a gap in the comic shops, IMO.
    The 'kids' section is appropriate for those under 7 or 9, and mainstream comics are now written for 14 or 16 and older.
    That leaves a big area between 9 and 14 (or 16).
    And those readers (yes, they do exist at that age) are turning to the manga and ogns that they can find at a library or bookstore.
    "There's magic in the sound of analog audio." - CNET.

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