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  1. #1
    Legendary Member daBronzeBomma's Avatar
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    Default Strongest Marvel-616 foe that Pre-COIE Mongul can beat?

    Standard Rumbles settings.

    Foe can be hero, villain, or other.

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    Legendary Member daBronzeBomma's Avatar
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    For reference, pre-Crisis Mongul was solidly stronger and more durable than Pre-Crisis Superman, to the point where Mongul took on both Supes and Pre-Crisis Martian Manhunter simultaneously and more than held his own.

    So, I'm starting with Gladiator up to Silver Surfer, but not up to Thanos.

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    He will probably break out the cubes or some such dumb move which snared Pre Crisis Superman who likewise was dumb enough to allow himself to be caught in one despite his speed.

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    She/Her Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh's Avatar
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    Does Mongul have any notable speed ?
    Yeah, but if you... man, we're getting into weird analogy territory, like if you disintegrated Superman's arms he wouldn't be able to go "fool! Little did you know that my arms and I are one and can be remade from me!" and will his arms back into being from pure nothingness. - Pendaran

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  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh View Post
    Does Mongul have any notable speed ?
    I don't believe so.
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  6. #6
    Astonishing Member Slade1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daBronzeBomma View Post
    For reference, pre-Crisis Mongul was solidly stronger and more durable than Pre-Crisis Superman, to the point where Mongul took on both Supes and Pre-Crisis Martian Manhunter simultaneously and more than held his own.

    So, I'm starting with Gladiator up to Silver Surfer, but not up to Thanos.
    Silver Surfer probably but not Gladiator. Gladiator has a huge speed advantage but I don't think he can even hurt Mongul through sheer brute strength and that's all he has.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    I don't believe so.
    I mean Thor could mess him up easily enough with esoterics, then. Going even further down the chain probably like ... Sersi ? Anyone who is quicker on the draw than Mongul that can turn him into a copy of The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, should do just fine.
    Yeah, but if you... man, we're getting into weird analogy territory, like if you disintegrated Superman's arms he wouldn't be able to go "fool! Little did you know that my arms and I are one and can be remade from me!" and will his arms back into being from pure nothingness. - Pendaran

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  8. #8
    Astonishing Member Slade1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh View Post
    I mean Thor could mess him up easily enough with esoterics, then. Going even further down the chain probably like ... Sersi ? Anyone who is quicker on the draw than Mongul that can turn him into a copy of The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, should do just fine.
    Pretty much this.

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    He was asking for the strongest foe Mongul could overcome and not vice versa. Lol Just shows that Monguls such a dumbass that his mere presence in a thread causes foggy minds.

  10. #10

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    This all depends on how you view transmutation vs raw durability. Mileage may vary, but Mongul is so /absurdly/ durable, I feel the question then becomes "have they transmuted materials as tough as that?"
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    She/Her Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    This all depends on how you view transmutation vs raw durability. Mileage may vary, but Mongul is so /absurdly/ durable, I feel the question then becomes "have they transmuted materials as tough as that?"
    I feel like this argument is sort of a janky attempt to skirt around a no limits fallacy, to be honest.

    "He's just that tough guys," does not an argument make when they're simply turning that super durable thing into say, a super durable copy of The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion.
    Yeah, but if you... man, we're getting into weird analogy territory, like if you disintegrated Superman's arms he wouldn't be able to go "fool! Little did you know that my arms and I are one and can be remade from me!" and will his arms back into being from pure nothingness. - Pendaran

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  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh View Post
    I feel like this argument is sort of a janky attempt to skirt around a no limits fallacy, to be honest.

    "He's just that tough guys," does not an argument make when they're simply turning that super durable thing into say, a super durable copy of The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion.
    I totally get your point of view and I'm not 100% on this theory myself tbh. I just /feel/ like when you are absurdly beyond the standard Class 100 crowd and flirting with Skyfather level onwards that it's worth a conversation at least.
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    She/Her Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    I totally get your point of view and I'm not 100% on this theory myself tbh. I just /feel/ like when you are absurdly beyond the standard Class 100 crowd and flirting with Skyfather level onwards that it's worth a conversation at least.
    I mean I guess it's worth talking about ?

    But there's been, as far as I can tell, an effort to push transmutation as beyond merely a 'durability' thing in comics. Usually by means of an emphasis put on establishing a character as having a measure of "molecular control at the level of the self" of which the prime examples are Thanos, the Eternals, and the Sentry and even they can be transmuted however ineffective it may be ultimately. Or they're resistant do to some powerup (see Kuurth*). There's also usually an emphasis put on characters that transcend the 'rules' as it were. Like when Captain Atom manipulated the molecules that made up the Speed Force, to roflstomp the Flash.

    So like ... I just don't feel there's enough of a reason to state "hey they tuff" as a legitimate reason without something more substantial to back it up.

    *Kuurth still had his blood set on fire/turned to fire, it just didn't do anything.
    Yeah, but if you... man, we're getting into weird analogy territory, like if you disintegrated Superman's arms he wouldn't be able to go "fool! Little did you know that my arms and I are one and can be remade from me!" and will his arms back into being from pure nothingness. - Pendaran

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  14. #14

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    Again, these are all good points and I totally sympathize with the general sentiment.

    But it opens up some weird arguments like being able to turn Classic Odin or full power Tyrant into muffins if you just happen to catch them off guard or are faster on the draw.

    Now Odin has reality warping (which is like the bigger steroid abusing brother of transmutation) so he could either say "nope" if he saw it coming or reverse it having been done to someone else, sure, but are we really cool saying he or Tyrant can get killed by Sersi if they happened to be sleeping?

    I say killed because if your brain is now a teacup, it is no longer capable of thinking the "reverse teacup" reality warp.

    And no, im NOT saying Mongul is as tuff as full power Tyrant. Just pointing out where my personal hang-ups exist with the ramifications of such stuff.
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  15. #15
    She/Her Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    Again, these are all good points and I totally sympathize with the general sentiment.

    But it opens up some weird arguments like being able to turn Classic Odin or full power Tyrant into muffins if you just happen to catch them off guard or are faster on the draw.

    Now Odin has reality warping (which is like the bigger steroid abusing brother of transmutation) so he could either say "nope" if he saw it coming or reverse it having been done to someone else, sure, but are we really cool saying he or Tyrant can get killed by Sersi if they happened to be sleeping?

    I say killed because if your brain is now a teacup, it is no longer capable of thinking the "reverse teacup" reality warp.

    And no, im NOT saying Mongul is as tuff as full power Tyrant. Just pointing out where my personal hang-ups exist with the ramifications of such stuff.
    I'd say against a sufficiently strong matter manipulator/reality warper, they'd still be transmuted. It's not as if, say, Franklin Richards, Mad Jim Jaspers, or hell, a suffiently dangerous iteration of the Molecule Man couldn't just say "Resistance ? That's cute," and transmute them right ?

    Like, my issue isn't with a sufficiently powerful cosmic/abstract to be flat out immune to most transmutation attempts. It's that the argument for a durability-based transmutation resistance sort of conflates the two. Because it's not solely their durability that would allow them to ignore transmutation, is it ? It's that they're on a completely different tier of demonstrated power coupled with durability.

    I'd also point out that Thanos was turned wholly to glass/melted, and otherwise had his brain destroyed ... and he shrugged it off. As has the Juggernaut (being turned into a very angry skeleton), and the Sentry was atomized.

    Didn't seem to bother them that they were lacking a brain.
    Yeah, but if you... man, we're getting into weird analogy territory, like if you disintegrated Superman's arms he wouldn't be able to go "fool! Little did you know that my arms and I are one and can be remade from me!" and will his arms back into being from pure nothingness. - Pendaran

    Arx Inosaan

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