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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member Slade1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh View Post
    I'd say against a sufficiently strong matter manipulator/reality warper, they'd still be transmuted. It's not as if, say, Franklin Richards, Mad Jim Jaspers, or hell, a suffiently dangerous iteration of the Molecule Man couldn't just say "Resistance ? That's cute," and transmute them right ?

    Like, my issue isn't with a sufficiently powerful cosmic/abstract to be flat out immune to most transmutation attempts. It's that the argument for a durability-based transmutation resistance sort of conflates the two. Because it's not solely their durability that would allow them to ignore transmutation, is it ? It's that they're on a completely different tier of demonstrated power coupled with durability.

    I'd also point out that Thanos was turned wholly to glass/melted, and otherwise had his brain destroyed ... and he shrugged it off. As has the Juggernaut (being turned into a very angry skeleton), and the Sentry was atomized.

    Didn't seem to bother them that they were lacking a brain.
    Where do you draw the line though? Galactus has no transmutation resistance feats but we usually handwave him it. Odin and other skyfathers are another murky area. Could someone random Joe blow with just transmutation powers transmute Odin? It's a tricky situation but I think moot in this scenario as I don't think Mongul is powerful enough to tank it.

  2. #17
    The Tentacle God Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slade1 View Post
    Where do you draw the line though? Galactus has no transmutation resistance feats but we usually handwave him it. Odin and other skyfathers are another murky area. Could someone random Joe blow with just transmutation powers transmute Odin? It's a tricky situation but I think moot in this scenario as I don't think Mongul is powerful enough to tank it.
    ... Molecule Man is effectively a Joe blow with just transmutation powers.

    I'll admit the 'line' is where it gets somewhat muddled though, yes, but the point I was getting at is that once you're into Skyfather/Abstract levels of power, transmutation/matter manipulation becomes irrelevant until you come up against someone who operates on or above Skyfather/Abstract levels.

    Even Thanos, for all of his resistance feats for example, would get utterly trounced by Franklin Richards or the Molecule Man.
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  3. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh View Post
    I'd say against a sufficiently strong matter manipulator/reality warper, they'd still be transmuted. It's not as if, say, Franklin Richards, Mad Jim Jaspers, or hell, a suffiently dangerous iteration of the Molecule Man couldn't just say "Resistance ? That's cute," and transmute them right ?

    Like, my issue isn't with a sufficiently powerful cosmic/abstract to be flat out immune to most transmutation attempts. It's that the argument for a durability-based transmutation resistance sort of conflates the two. Because it's not solely their durability that would allow them to ignore transmutation, is it ? It's that they're on a completely different tier of demonstrated power coupled with durability.

    I'd also point out that Thanos was turned wholly to glass/melted, and otherwise had his brain destroyed ... and he shrugged it off. As has the Juggernaut (being turned into a very angry skeleton), and the Sentry was atomized.

    Didn't seem to bother them that they were lacking a brain.
    Those first few guys you mentioned (except for certain depowered versions of MM) operate specifically with the steroid abusing older brother, Reality Warping. I wouldn't suggest a really durable guy could resist that sort of thing because the very nature of that person's personal reality/space/being would be being affected as opposed to trying to manhandle super durable science ignoring molecules to recombine differently. Thanos gets a pass because he has explicit feats for overcoming such effects.

    Here's my biggest thing for having an issue with it after a certain point. Rumbles has repeatedly had a history of arguing against other similar but not quite the same sorts of arguments and I dont know why this is different.

    Like Storm turning off the electricity in Hulk's brain. People like Pendaran or whoever come in saying "well whats the toughest thing that's worked on?" as a counter point for affecting Class 100. People respond with "the electricity in the brain isnt durable... It's just electricity so who cares?" but despite the logic of that, historically it's fallen flat. Same with questions of Mera (or whoever) dehydrating Class 100 opponents. The water in their bodies isnt durable... just the meat and junk but again it historically gets asked "what's the toughest thing she's dehydrated?" and it typically gets shut down.

    So I feel there is some board established precedent to at least ask "what's the toughest thing they've transmuted?" at least after a point.

    Am I making sense? I don't particularly even care to die on this hill and I really DO get your point of view. Just curious where one thing applies but not another is all.
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  4. #19
    The Tentacle God Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    Those first few guys you mentioned (except for certain depowered versions of MM) operate specifically with the steroid abusing older brother, Reality Warping. I wouldn't suggest a really durable guy could resist that sort of thing because the very nature of that person's personal reality/space/being would be being affected as opposed to trying to manhandle super durable science ignoring molecules to recombine differently. Thanos gets a pass because he has explicit feats for overcoming such effects.
    Implying that the physics defying molecules are treated as "as durable as the whole". Which I don't think is a thing ? Take the barely functioning Molecule Man being able to atomize the Sentry.

    Here's my biggest thing for having an issue with it after a certain point. Rumbles has repeatedly had a history of arguing against other similar but not quite the same sorts of arguments and I dont know why this is different.
    So you're saying that since they're similar but not really, we should just throw a blanket over it and call it good ?

    Like Storm turning off the electricity in Hulk's brain. People like Pendaran or whoever come in saying "well whats the toughest thing that's worked on?" as a counter point for affecting Class 100. People respond with "the electricity in the brain isnt durable... It's just electricity so who cares?" but despite the logic of that, historically it's fallen flat. Same with questions of Mera (or whoever) dehydrating Class 100 opponents. The water in their bodies isnt durable... just the meat and junk but again it historically gets asked "what's the toughest thing she's dehydrated?" and it typically gets shut down.
    See above.

    I'd also say that, it's a matter of degrees ? Messing with electrical signals, and sucking the moisture out of someone aren't the same as transmutation.

    So I feel there is some board established precedent to at least ask "what's the toughest thing they've transmuted?" at least after a point.

    Am I making sense? I don't particularly even care to die on this hill and I really DO get your point of view. Just curious where one thing applies but not another is all.
    Eh, I'd probably argue on a case by case basis for the things mentioned above tbh. But to lump everything under the same blanket is reductive to the point of "why".
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  5. #20
    Astonishing Member Captain Morgan's Avatar
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    Honestly I think comparing particular feats is probably worth doing, much as we would generally compare damage output to durability, with the asterisk that it is going to get a little weird and involve some substitution. But it probably isn't as simple as "paper beats rock."

    So for example, Jiren of Dragonball never encountered transmutation, but he did overpower time control so I'm inclined to say he'd be fine unless someone with similar levels of power tried it.

    On the flip side, in lieu of "what's the most durable thing you've transmuted" I'd probably accept feats demonstrated an extremely large scale of power. Like if someone is terraforming planets in an instant they can probably do up class 100s who would be hurt by planet busters.

  6. #21
    The Tentacle God Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh's Avatar
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    Leave it to Morgan to say what I'm essentially attempting to, more eloquently.

    This is why you're a planet sized green lantern, and I'm a crazy fish dragon space alien god thing.
    "... and when the Golden Toad started to sing, there was no turning back." - grampagen (Ochazuke)

    "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn."

  7. #22
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Morgan View Post
    Honestly I think comparing particular feats is probably worth doing, much as we would generally compare damage output to durability, with the asterisk that it is going to get a little weird and involve some substitution. But it probably isn't as simple as "paper beats rock."

    So for example, Jiren of Dragonball never encountered transmutation, but he did overpower time control so I'm inclined to say he'd be fine unless someone with similar levels of power tried it.
    While I don't disagree wholly with this in principle, I'd be very wary of using Dragonball as something with which to set or illustrate a precedent. Being able to resist reality warping/magic/transmutation by virtue of sheer power level is an established property of the setting.

    See Vegetto being transmuted into hard candy and retaining his strength, ability to speak and flight powers for example and even post-Freiza Saga Goku being able to just no sell the attempts of a dragon that can raise the dead and rebuild planets by virtue of being too strong.

    Jiren is massively above either of those examples in terms of raw power so I'd have no issue with him just having a high level resistance to attacks like that. DB has this baked in.

    Marvel it's much less clear.

    Also, you're now technically arguing that "power" and "durability" are synonymous which, again, is technically true in DB but that's not the same for all settings.
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  8. #23
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    I also have a small thought in my head that presence of astral plane in Marvel makes coming back from bodily destruction or transmutation easier for them than perhaps some other places.

    It's easier to deal with having no physical body when there is a place for your disembodied consciousness to go to and still have a form of power and agency.

    This isn't to undermine any feats but just a thought I had. Marvel is better built for this stuff in terms of setting.
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  9. #24
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    I also have a small thought in my head that presence of astral plane in Marvel makes coming back from bodily destruction or transmutation easier for them than perhaps some other places.

    It's easier to deal with having no physical body when there is a place for your disembodied consciousness to go to and still have a form of power and agency.

    This isn't to undermine any feats but just a thought I had. Marvel is better built for this stuff in terms of setting.
    Though on some reflection this does smack of the mindset that gave us "tactile telekinesis" and the like. Perhaps best to ignore that particular can of worms.
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