Is It Time For A Democratic Atlantis?

[Tzigone]

I just don't like Atlanteans depicted as fundamentally unfit for self-rule and as a people that need outside control to keep them from either self-destructing or attacking others.

[Frontier]

I just don't like Atlanteans depicted as fundamentally unfit for self-rule and as a people that need outside control to keep them from either self-destructing or attacking others.

Aquaman's only technically an "outsider" though.

[Phoenixx9]

No, not a democratic Atlantis.

But...perhaps an Atlantis co-ruled by both Arthur and Namor!

[Tzigone]

Aquaman's only technically an "outsider" though.

I don't see how he could be anything but an outsider - he is explicitly not of their culture (and their culture has been increasingly depicted as xenophobic and racist over the decades). He has never, as far as I'm aware, been raised in Atlantis. I've seen at least one version use the "bridge between our peoples" argument, but no is arguing the American President or similar leaders need to have Atlantean blood and be bridges.

[Frontier]

I don't see how he could be anything but an outsider - he is explicitly not of their culture (and their culture has been increasingly depicted as xenophobic and racist). He has never, as far as I'm aware, been raised in Atlantis. I've seen at least one version use the "bridge between our peoples" argument, but no is arguing the American President or similar leaders need to have Atlantean blood and be bridges.

He was raised on the surface but he usually feels more at home in the sea, though. It's like his main character conflict is he's never quite at home in either the surface or the sea but he's the only one who can manage both enough to bring balance as king (ideally).

I think in general Arthur probably loves the things about Atlantis that don't involve their racism and xenophobia.

[kjn]

That just kind of defeats the point though? Like, if he's still a king then the expectation is he'd still act like one, not like a constitutional king.

Depends on how it is played. DeConnick wanted to deemphasise the monarch aspects of Aquaman in favour of the protector of the sea aspects, and getting rid of some of his autocratic duties can be one way of managing that. Also, constitutional monarchies can look very different. Sweden had one from 1809, and it looks very different today than it did when it was first instituted, with several major changes and shifts happening along the way.

In a way, both Themyscira and Atlantis reflect how shallow and limited understanding of history that many people have today. There are lots of fun and interesting models that could be used for how they organise their societies and governments, that could give them more character.

[Frontier]

Depends on how it is played. DeConnick wanted to deemphasise the monarch aspects of Aquaman in favour of the protector of the sea aspects, and getting rid of some of his autocratic duties can be one way of managing that. Also, constitutional monarchies can look very different. Sweden had one from 1809, and it looks very different today than it did when it was first instituted, with several major changes and shifts happening along the way.

Well, she kind of had to deal with Aquaman not being a king anymore since that was the previous status quo and the drama of Mera being queen.

In a way, both Themyscira and Atlantis reflect how shallow and limited understanding of history that many people have today. There are lots of fun and interesting models that could be used for how they organise their societies and governments, that could give them more character.

Either that or writers just don't want to get into the nitty gritty of how exactly different governments work .

Although Themyscira's system seems more successful then Atlantis on a general basis. Utopia indeed .

[TheNewFiftyForum]

How is Doom a good monarch?

That's my point, genuinely believing that you're a great enough guy to be the best option bar none to rule a country is something I associate with Doom rather than someone like Aquaman, even if he's also written as arrogant and believing himself to be exceptional from time to time.

What about Black Panther?

Exact same thing. I don't care about how much of a benevolent multi-competent genius you are, being a monarchy is not a good way to rule a country.

[Frontier]

That's my point, genuinely believing that you're a great enough guy to be the best option bar none to rule a country is something I associate with Doom rather than someone like Aquaman, even if he's also written as arrogant and believing himself to be exceptional from time to time.

I don't think the "good" kings in comics think of themselves as the best option bar none to rule their country but that they have the best qualities to lead their people and that's what makes them king.

Exact same thing. I don't care about how much of a benevolent multi-competent genius you are, being a monarchy is not a good way to rule a country.

I mean, if you're against the concept in principle I can see the issue but as far as the mythos of the character is concerned we're supposed to believe that a monarchy is the ideal way for that fantastical comic book kingdom to be ruled.

[Robanker]

Exact same thing. I don't care about how much of a benevolent multi-competent genius you are, being a monarchy is not a good way to rule a country.

Here's the thing. Atlanteans would pretty much vote to declare war on the surface and then the Justice League would ultimately crush them for being an invading army trying to overthrow the entire planet. It's a zero-sum game for Atlantis. Arthur/Mera in control as a monarch is actually saving themselves from suicide. They've attempted regicide because Arthur has attempted to broker peace between themselves and a foreign power that would defeat them. The people of Atlantis are not bright. They may completely ruin the surface, but they literally cannot win against it. Comics are a unique beast because we can see into people's thoughts and we know their characters enough that becoming a monarch actually can work. Superman would be a great king because he has the qualities to be, though I am certain he would hate each picosecond of it.

Atlantis isn't a kingdom safe to become a democracy because, frankly, it's fueled by xenophobia, isolation and ultimately has plans to declare war on the world. Unlike every real world example, this doesn't come from the top but from it's people; it's rulers are the ones who historically keep peace and try to lead them toward a mindset that could become a more democratic entity without leading to its own self-destruction.

Normally I'd be with you. I prefer a government that represents the voice of its people, but in this very specific case, they are simply unready for it.

[Frontier]

Atlantis isn't a kingdom safe to become a democracy because, frankly, it's fueled by xenophobia, isolation and ultimately has plans to declare war on the world. Unlike every real world example, this doesn't come from the top but from it's people; it's rulers are the ones who historically keep peace and try to lead them toward a mindset that could become a more democratic entity without leading to its own self-destruction.

Look at what happened when Orm was in charge. And people seemed to like him more then they did Arthur.

Normally I'd be with you. I prefer a government that represents the voice of its people, but in this very specific case, they are simply unready for it.

I also think it's important to acknowledge that reality (wherein democracy is normally the ideal form of government) doesn't necesarilly need to apply to a fantastical Superhero comic depending on what the premise is.

(And people still love their "one true king" stories).

[Robanker]

Sure, but Orm was in on their War With the Surface mindset, same as Rath. When left to the whims of its people, Atlantis is aggressive and warlike. It's only through it's benevolent monarchs that it can actually exist with the rest of the world.

[Silvermoth]

I’m honoured someone was inspired by my thread in the marvel forum haha.

This is a bit of a hot take but although I could see namor being more interesting in a democratic society I actually think Aquaman is better with the monarchy.

- it keeps the lord of the rings/game of thrones type of feel
- the king of the seas sounds better than the prime minister of the seas
- Arthur is literally named after King Arthur.

But I like that we’re chatting about it

[Silvermoth]

No, not a democratic Atlantis.

But...perhaps an Atlantis co-ruled by both Arthur and Namor!

Aw, that would be cute!

[Restingvoice]

Since the New 52, there's been what, 4 attempted coups in Atlantis? And isn't Arthur currently separated from them again? It feels like DC's kind of sending the message that an Atlantian monarchy isn't feasible anymore given how often the place falls apart.

It feels like DC kind of ran out of stories.
But seriously though, I don't mind if there's a motion among Atlantean, either the downtrodden or the manipulative, or the manipulative using the downtrodden, to push for Democracy. That'll be new.