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  1. #16
    Ultimate Member Ambaryerno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supernature View Post
    My issue with the way resurrection was explained in HoX/PoX is that it made it seem like they were making copies (copy of a mutant's mind at a particular point in time + copy of their body) rather than preserving their consciousness and bringing it back to the physical worlds via a new body. If that's the case then an ethical conversation is absolutely necessary, because the mutants they 'bring back' aren't even technically the same person.

    Or does the reality warping part of the process unify the soul/consciousness?
    The big question is do the "host" bodies develop their own consciousness before they're overwritten by the backed up psychic imprints of the deceased? That poses a VERY serious ethical question, because if so, it means they're literally killing a unique sentient being in order to resurrect someone.
    Still hoping for that Helix Reunion...

    The New X-Men: Can't let you grow up because you make everyone look old. But we can sure as @#$% mindlessly kill you off for shock value!


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  2. #17
    Superior Homo Supernature's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ambaryerno View Post
    The big question is do the "host" bodies develop their own consciousness before they're overwritten by the backed up psychic imprints of the deceased? That poses a VERY serious ethical question, because if so, it means they're literally killing a unique sentient being in order to resurrect someone.
    Or merging the minds of 2 people who aren't fully aware of what they're getting into beforehand...

  3. #18
    Astonishing Member Knives's Avatar
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    If it wasn't for the new cloning system and memory there was no way the X-men could fight and win an army of machines and humans in the long run.

    See what happened in the last mission for example how many X-men died in a single mission? Humans can always make more Sentinels but the same could not happen with mutants that are living beings.

    The new system in addition to ensuring that the mutant population is not exterminated prevents the mutant nation from losing its most powerful and experienced soldiers. This reduces casualties and costs of training and using mutant civilians in the future wars.

    It is not a perfect system it can be used in many ways to control and manipulate living things probably the dream of some mad and sinister scientist ( I can hear Sinister saying: someone called me ?) but for now the benefits outweigh the risks.

    Again this plan is according to Moira's memories the last chance of the mutants in all other realities they lost. From my point of view this is the mutants saying we no longer have the benefit of fighting fairly or losing again.

    Moreover, although I understand the moral discussions what right would we have to judge a society or nation? Or culture?

    If it was an alien culture would we be having this conversation? Or is it because we still consider that mutants should cling to the same culture that humans have?

    I don't know what most mutants think about it but for now until the idea explodes in their faces it seems that the process has become sacred to them and part of their culture.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    What headaches?
    In the MU...heroes, villains, humans all dying and coming back to life under/through any number of "mysterious" ways and circumstances is/should be accepted canon, by now.
    In the grand scheme of MU life...it really isn't that new or even entirely uncommon.
    In the past, resurrections happens because editorial mandate and a poor in universe excuse which usually involve a hyperbole hard to repeat.

    Sometimes the character could be gone for years or literally not coming back if there is no demand.

    Now they have The Resurrector Plus, unlimited resurrections in your house.

  5. #20
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lapsus View Post
    In the past, resurrections happens because editorial mandate and a poor in universe excuse which usually involve a hyperbole hard to repeat.

    Sometimes the character could be gone for years or literally not coming back if there is no demand.

    Now they have The Resurrector Plus, unlimited resurrections in your house.
    No they don't.
    It's not as though HiX-Man and he other writers are going to be killing every lead character in every arc just so that they can be resurrected/just because they can be resurrected.

    As it stands right now..the "resurrection machine" is, primarily for those mutants who died during the Genosha Genocide. Scott, Jean, Angel etc resurrection was an extenuating circumstance used to drive that particular plot-line home.
    Last edited by Devaishwarya; 10-10-2019 at 02:22 PM.
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  6. #21
    It's no dream... I'm real Silver Phoenix's Avatar
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    Hickman is ultimately building a world of controversy, conundrums and ramifications that will lend to interesting stories. You could put what Xavier is doing under the title: Messiah Complex 2.0
    "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."- Jesus
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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supernature View Post
    My issue with the way resurrection was explained in HoX/PoX is that it made it seem like they were making copies (copy of a mutant's mind at a particular point in time + copy of their body) rather than preserving their consciousness and bringing it back to the physical worlds via a new body. If that's the case then an ethical conversation is absolutely necessary, because the mutants they 'bring back' aren't even technically the same person.

    Or does the reality warping part of the process unify the soul/consciousness?
    The consciousness is pretty clearly the same- no more different than, say, someone who teleports and is reassembled somewhere else.

    Souls or more metaphyisical discussions are something else.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    No they don't.
    It's not as though HiX-Man and he other writers are going to be killing every lead character in every arc just so that they can be resurrected/just because they can be resurrected.
    We dont know that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    As it stands right now..the "resurrection machine" is, primarily for those mutants who died during the Genosha Genocide. Scott, Jean, Angel etc resurrection was an extenuating circumstance used to drive that particular plot-line home.
    If they die in another battle, they are going to bring them back. Do you really think that Xavier is going to let them die??
    They are immortal now, they said it themselves in the council.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supernature View Post
    Or merging the minds of 2 people who aren't fully aware of what they're getting into beforehand...
    That worked so well for Betsy and Kwannon.

  10. #25
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lapsus View Post
    We dont know that.



    If they die in another battle, they are going to bring them back. Do you really think that Xavier is going to let them die??
    They are immortal now, they said it themselves in the council.
    1: No we don't know that for absolute certain...but that would be some really shytty writing, if the X-Writers are going to pull a "Kenny" every arc. (Somehow I think they are much better than that...but that's just me.) And...it certainly wasn't meaningful when writers like Rosenberg did it arbitrarily...it's certainly not going to be meaningful or even interesting if they killed off X-Men 'just because".

    2:They are immortal because there are means to resurrect them, but also...and this is important to understand...their individual minds/memories/"anima" exist "in perpetuity", thanks to Cerebro's upgrades.

    Yes, if they die in battle they will be brought back...but again...chances are there aren't going to be too many suicide runs (as with the Mother Mold expedition) going forward. As heroes, dying in battle it not something I think Scott, or storm, or anyone will happily embrace...you know, the pain, the anguish, the blood....all that bad stuff.
    We are MUTANT...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  11. #26
    Astonishing Member OBrianTallent's Avatar
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    One thing to look at however is that in Powers of X...how many of the current X-characters were present in the future? Wolverine....Moira...the others were chimera built from Sinister's models. So somewhere it went sideways or stopped. One thing I know of Hickman is that nothing is done without forethought. He has the plan set in place already should it need be and I HOPE it involves Destiny coming back. Oh how I loved that old crone. Here was a woman of considerable age (60's?) running around in a bathing suit with a bunch of super villains. That old broad had some balls! Plus I can see Mystique flipping her blue shit when Xavier tells her they wont bring Irene back. THAT'S gonna go over like a lead ballon.
    Also, Moira's insistence that there can be NO precogs. What happens when one naturally appears and wants to be included? Xavier tells them no? I also have to wonder how Rachel will be affected by this, part of her powers are chronoskimming and psychometry. Surely Moira isn't going to be too easy with her being around. Hickman has left a lot of grey areas that I surely hope he has plans to address that can cause some serious dramatic tensions that I can't wait to see.
    One other thing I hope gets brought up in all this are Destiny's Diaries and how they could play into this master plan of resurrection and Moira's plans.
    As for resurrection of characters...that has to be a sticky situation that someone in the group has to have some reservations about. I would have thought Nightcrawler at first, but he is all in it seems (plus having fairly recently been dead and brought back himself, I guess it's not an issue with him.) Plus there has to be events that happen between backups and deaths...what if the back up Prof X had of Iceman was before he accepted who he is and came out? How would that play out. What about if there is a character who vehemently doesn't want to be brought back for whatever reason, would that be honored? Seems like a non issue as long as it wasn't a character like say Hope or Goldballs or someone like that. There's a ton of moral and ethical grey here that I am looking forward to seeing if it gets explored.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by OBrianTallent View Post
    As for resurrection of characters...that has to be a sticky situation that someone in the group has to have some reservations about. I would have thought Nightcrawler at first, but he is all in it seems (plus having fairly recently been dead and brought back himself, I guess it's not an issue with him.)
    I'd agree that Kurt would seem like the natural person to pipe up, but the current iteration of Kurt has no soul, and might not see 'the big deal' about filling up the nation with soulless copies of dead folk... Kurt's not the only current X-Man to be a damaged versions of themselves, on some psychological or spiritual level, that also applies to Angel/Warren Worthington, who may or may not even remember much of his own past. or the various X-Men who've 'died' and then been 'resurrected' or replaced by this means or that. (Xaviers new clone body, however Cyclops came back the two times he died, Jean's multiple deaths and returns, etc.)

    A surprising number of current X-Men could turn out to be clone infiltrators seeded there by Sinister or the Dark Beast (or some third more mysterious individual), and nobody would necessarily even *know* that they aren't the real person returned...

    Which would be hilarious to have one of them rip their face off after the Manchurian candidate song plays to trigger the big betrayal, only to have everyone else rip their faces off and discover that there aren't any originals left to 'betray.'

    Fake Cyclops "Ha ha! You thought that I had only 'come back wrong' after dying to Apocalypse! But I was never your Cyclops all along!"

    Fake Jean "Ha ha! There was no bogus pod under the bay! Your Jean actually did die on the moon!"

    Fake Nightcrawler "Ha ha! He's still in heaven! Or hell. Whatever. The point is, I'm gonna kill you all... Uh. Well, anyone who isn't also a clone..."

    Fake Cannonball "The real Sam was stabbed to death by Sauron. Not an External, after all. I can't believe anyone fell for that."

    Fake Magneto "Yeah, last we saw the real Magneto, his name was Magnus and he was a gypsy and the Stranger took him away. I've been a clone for *decades,* and am Jewish and named either Erik or Max, I can't even remember. Let's not get into my kid situation, it's... complicated."

    Real Betsy "You thought that Asian ninja-chick in the butt-floss was me? For real?"

    Real Warren "Ditto. I mean, he's got metal wings made out of Wolverine's cast-off claws, and *he's blue.* But Apocalypse told you he was me after an extreme Horseman of Death makeover? And you believed this? Did you also believe him when Poccy said he was a GOD?"

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