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  1. #16
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    His run on Avengers wasn't very defining. It just continued the idea of using the main books as a backbone to the rest of the Marvel Universe that we saw during the Bendis era.

  2. #17
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain M View Post
    Stern's run is the greatest Avengers run imo, followed by Busiek. I need to read Byrne's run still

    Nothing Hickman did on Avengers was defining really, none of it matters now. It told a cool story but that's it. It'll be the case for his X-Men work in a few years too. His work is always too grand to not get completely ignored by the creators that come after
    Shooter, Busiek and Stern.

  3. #18
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Hickman's New Avengers run built on themes that Bendis had laid down, namely the Illuminati and so on. Characters like Namor, Black Panther, Doctor Strange were figures in Illuminati and also major players and movers in Hickman's Avengers run.
    But that's not really Avengers-centric, especially when the primary characters involved weren't even officially Avengers at the time except for, like, Tony and he was the least plot relevant.

    The book was basically Illuminati but was called New Avengers for branding. It wasn't really an Avengers book.
    So I don't think it's entirely fair to say that Hickman's run isn't connected to the Avengers at all. It builds off of Bendis' work and simply takes that to the next level. Stuff like Avengers World with the Builders and Ex Nihilo as well as Starbrand builds on new universe and other stuff.
    I don't think he really built much off of Bendis. Avengers World kind of built up the Avengers brand/franchise but I think that's about it.
    And let's not forget that Hickman invented and created the Black Order who made their big screen debut in Infinity War and Endgame.
    And he wasn't happy with that .
    And Time Runs Out ends with Iron Man and Cap beating the s--t each other. Doesn't get more Avengers than that.
    That's...a very depressing view of The Avengers. It's more of a Civil War thing then an Avengers thing in my opinion.

    And given that's the last thing Steve and Tony do for Hickman's run, it kind of shows just how pointless The Avengers ultimately were to the run and overall story.
    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The Avengers as a whole are "superheroes fight bad guys" so there's no team identity to it unlike Fantastic Four (which is about the Family dynamic of the four) and X-Men (saving the world that hates and fears them). Unintentionally it has had team identities (being a place for second-stringers, rejects, prospective reformed villains) that had nothing to do with being "Earth's Mightiest Heroes" (which they rarely were) and more recently fighting each other and splintering and forming factions. Historically it has been assembled, disassembled, combined, recombined multiple times by different writers. And of course Hickman had a second hero civil war so he kept on-brand there.
    I think the bolded was mostly true for an earlier period of the team, but more of then not I think the intention of them being a quirky and eclectic team that comes together from happenstance to fight the forces of evil that normal people never could has been a defining element of the team across multiple era's.

  4. #19
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    That's...a very depressing view of The Avengers. It's more of a Civil War thing then an Avengers thing in my opinion.
    Yeah, I don't think that's an apt description of the history of the Avengers dynamic. Have they had their share of in-fighting? Sure but to say that this is the character of the Avengers is not accurate at all.

    It's only after Bendis and Millar that the Avengers were improperly characterized.


  5. #20
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    Yeah, I don't think that's an apt description of the history of the Avengers dynamic. Have they had their share of in-fighting? Sure but to say that this is the character of the Avengers is not accurate at all.

    It's only after Bendis and Millar that the Avengers were improperly characterized.

    Yeah, it's not even like the Cap and Iron Man rivalry has been that prevalent in the actual Avengers books beyond Civil War.

  6. #21
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    I might have liked Hickman's run more if it didn't follow AvX which just left a terrible taste in everyone's mouth
    The J-man

    I post via my phone a lot, therefore I make the occasional grammatical error. Not an excuse just forewarning you. Feel free to call me out I won't mind.

  7. #22
    Condescending Member manymade1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    And he wasn't happy with that .
    Really? What was the reason?

  8. #23
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manymade1 View Post
    Really? What was the reason?
    The old issue of characters you create for a publisher whose rights you don't own and which get harvested for a $1bn movie...all for a project you take to do your creator-owned work that combined won't make that much money ever. As a rule, that's why writers and others when working for DC and Marvel try their best to work with pre-existing characters and don't create new ones because if that happens you won't see a cent. In Hickman's case, he was creating what he thought were throwaway lackeys and they ended up becoming adapted on screen -- and in the case of Ebony Maw and Proxima Midnight, relatively faithfully too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    But that's not really Avengers-centric, especially when the primary characters involved weren't even officially Avengers at the time except for, like, Tony and he was the least plot relevant.
    Captain America was in the revived Illuminati in the early issues until he got mind-wiped. Black Panther was there and he has a long history as a member of the Avengers. And thanks to Hickman he's been on the regular roster since then.

    The book was basically Illuminati but was called New Avengers for branding. It wasn't really an Avengers book.
    The Illuminati originated in the pages of New Avengers. So I think it's fair to say it's part of the Avengers lore.

    That's...a very depressing view of The Avengers. It's more of a Civil War thing then an Avengers thing in my opinion.
    CIVIL WAR was the defining story for the Avengers, it made them the center of the Marvel Universe and the MCU movies certainly defined the Avengers as self-destructive f--k-ups who spent a huge number of their screentime fighting and/or getting in each other's faces.

    So I think the boot fits whether some Avengers fans may like it or not.

    And given that's the last thing Steve and Tony do for Hickman's run, it kind of shows just how pointless The Avengers ultimately were to the run and overall story.
    Everyone was pointless. None of them could stop the incursions. Not the Fantastic Four, not the X-Men, no one. Doctor Doom was the one who rebuilt the Multiverse and saved everyone from the Beyonders leading to the multiverse in turn to be saved from Doctor Doom.

    I think the bolded was mostly true for an earlier period of the team, but more of then not I think the intention of them being a quirky and eclectic team that comes together from happenstance to fight the forces of evil that normal people never could has been a defining element of the team across multiple era's.
    I guess so. But fighting normal forces other people could is also true for the X-Men "who save the world that hates and fears them" and who protect and defend humanity from renegade mutants. It's also true of Fantastic Four, and Spider-Man and others.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 10-10-2019 at 07:50 PM.

  9. #24
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Captain America was in the revived Illuminati in the early issues until he got mind-wiped. Black Panther was there and he has a long history as a member of the Avengers. And thanks to Hickman he's been on the regular roster since then.
    Cap was off the group so quickly that I don't think he should apply. And T'Challa the king was more present in that series then T'Challa The Avenger.

    The movies had more to do with T'Challa being a regular Avenger again then Hickman did in my opinion.
    The Illuminati originated in the pages of New Avengers. So I think it's fair to say it's part of the Avengers lore.
    Fair enough, but I think most people view it as distinct from The Avengers franchise.
    CIVIL WAR was the defining story for the Avengers, it made them the center of the Marvel Universe and the MCU movies certainly defined the Avengers as self-destructive f--k-ups who spent a huge number of their screentime fighting and/or getting in each other's faces.
    Civil War wasn't really about The Avengers though, beyond the fact that many of the major members were involved, since it was a Marvel Universe event.

    The Avengers in the MCU don't really come off like that to me, or at least I don't think the movie tries to define them that way. They have their strong personalities that clash and sometimes they create their own problems but 9 times out 10 they come around and save the day
    Everyone was pointless. None of them could stop the incursions. Not the Fantastic Four, not the X-Men, no one. Doctor Doom was the one who rebuilt the Multiverse and saved everyone from the Beyonders leading to the multiverse in turn to be saved from Doctor Doom.
    And which franchise is Dr. Doom a primary villain of ?
    I guess so. But fighting normal forces other people could is also true for the X-Men "who save the world that hates and fears them" and who protect and defend humanity from renegade mutants. It's also true of Fantastic Four, and Spider-Man and others.
    Yeah, but those teams don't really fight Ultron, Kang, or the world-ending threats The Avengers deal with (because they have distinct world-ending threats of their own to deal with).

  10. #25
    Astonishing Member Captain M's Avatar
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    Hickman has nothing to do with TChalla being in Aaron's Avengers. He even skipped Waid's run. It's all about the movies and maybe Aaron's personal taste.

  11. #26
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    his avengers run was mostly an extension of his fantastic four cosmic work

    the characterizations were kinda flat to be honest.

  12. #27
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain M View Post
    Hickman has nothing to do with TChalla being in Aaron's Avengers. He even skipped Waid's run. It's all about the movies and maybe Aaron's personal taste.
    Hickman's run had a huge influence on how people saw T'Challa. Ryan Coogler director of Black Panther and the Russos all said that their take on T'Challa in the MCU was inspired by both Priest and Hickman's runs. And Ta-Nehisi Coates has also cited Hickman's take on Black Panther as an inspiration.

    Aaron of course contributed earlier when he wrote that famous "See Wakanda and Die" three-parter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    And which franchise is Dr. Doom a primary villain of ?
    The Marvel Universe? I mean Doom has been the #1 villain of the MU for ages and he fought the Avengers many times and tussled with them in a number of stories. Secret Wars ultimately becomes a Doom and Reed slugfest and d--k measuring contest but that doesn't mean Doom alone discounts the story from being an Avengers' story. If you read the original Secret Wars 1984, then the guy who ultimately takes down Doom is Captain America there with Reed Richards being his sidekick there. So Hickman making the 2015 Secret Wars about Reed and Doom was actually a new wrinkle as is him giving the Fantastic Four their time in the sun, since it was the first time in a long time (maybe even first time ever) that they got to be center stage in a major Marvel event.

    Yeah, but those teams don't really fight Ultron, Kang, or the world-ending threats The Avengers deal with (because they have distinct world-ending threats of their own to deal with).
    Kang has fought the Fantastic Four many times, and indeed was bracketed as a FF villain in the Fox-Marvel license war chest. The Avengers' world-ending threats aren't the world-ending threats. Neither Kang nor Ultron are fit to shine Galactus' shoes. Or Phoenix for that matter. That's the problem with a team calling itself "Earth's Mightiest Heroes" when the Fantastic Four and the X-Men usually made them look like amateurs.

  13. #28
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ying Ko View Post
    Hickman's FF run was great, certainly up there with Lee/Kirby and Byrne. His X-Men is only beginning now but seems to be building towards greatness as well.

    His Avengers however I found to be very average. Didn't even bother to finish it at the time.
    I agree on X'Men. Hickman's X-Men run has only set itself up with 12 issues of minis. The setup has been both brilliant and revolutionary and fully capable of being a seminal (Claremont's favorite word) part of the X-Men's journey.

    I disagree on Avengers being average, but I will agree with a previous poster that it was basically a lead-in to an FF oriented Secret Wars.

    As for Hickman's FF, I think common consensus is that it's a classic run in the series' top three.

  14. #29
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    Cap and Iron Man have been on opposing sides of the spectrum more often than not with Steve challenging his leadership during the Korvac saga, having clashed briefly over how to deal with the threat of the captive Molecule Man. Then things got seriously strained between them due to the armor wars which carried over to the Operation Galactic Storm where Tony was undermining Steve more often than not. They also had a difference of opinion over rights and liberties in the Cap/Iron Man annual. The skirmishes never escalated but they have clashed multiple times over many issues before the civil war.

  15. #30
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Hickman's run had a huge influence on how people saw T'Challa. Ryan Coogler director of Black Panther and the Russos all said that their take on T'Challa in the MCU was inspired by both Priest and Hickman's runs. And Ta-Nehisi Coates has also cited Hickman's take on Black Panther as an inspiration.
    I think they took a lot more from Priest and Hudlin then they did Hickman.
    The Marvel Universe? I mean Doom has been the #1 villain of the MU for ages and he fought the Avengers many times and tussled with them in a number of stories. Secret Wars ultimately becomes a Doom and Reed slugfest and d--k measuring contest but that doesn't mean Doom alone discounts the story from being an Avengers' story. If you read the original Secret Wars 1984, then the guy who ultimately takes down Doom is Captain America there with Reed Richards being his sidekick there. So Hickman making the 2015 Secret Wars about Reed and Doom was actually a new wrinkle as is him giving the Fantastic Four their time in the sun, since it was the first time in a long time (maybe even first time ever) that they got to be center stage in a major Marvel event.
    But when most people think of Doom, they think of him as a Fantastic Four villain since he's their biggest foe, and his most dynamic and deep relationship is with them.

    It's like how Norman Osborn was a MU-wide villain for a time but no one ever forgot he was still a Spider-Man villain when you get right down to it.
    Kang has fought the Fantastic Four many times, and indeed was bracketed as a FF villain in the Fox-Marvel license war chest. The Avengers' world-ending threats aren't the world-ending threats. Neither Kang nor Ultron are fit to shine Galactus' shoes. Or Phoenix for that matter. That's the problem with a team calling itself "Earth's Mightiest Heroes" when the Fantastic Four and the X-Men usually made them look like amateurs.
    But most people remember Kang as an Avengers villain.

    I mean, they're the world-ending threats of that specific time and place. Not sure we really need to measure them...and I don't think anyone in-universe would really view the Avengers as amateurs in comparison to the other Marvel Superhero teams. Otherwise the world would be even worse off in my opinion.

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