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  1. #631
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    We have seen X-men have any dialogue in Hox or PoX /Dawn of X outside of Work/Combat and one ceremony. People are judge personalities based on couple page of dialogue. This X-men are going to more human and friendly because outside of combat this is the safest environment the X-men have in awhile. Outside of combat,It is going to be mutants in environment where there isn't hate and fear for them. People are projecting what they think the run is going to be. The X-men haven't been cold and militant. Cyclops was telling jokes in combat, Storm was expressive as hell in the ceremony and in the council meeting, Jean was still compassionate. Monet was still standoffish. Nightcrawler was expressive and jovale when he said his rule on the council.
    If you say so; personally I found everyone's dialogue to be even colder and more militant here than in those prior scenarios. I'm not picking up any of the warmth Storm usually exudes in such speeches, such as when she was addressing the people of Wakanda's praise; in Hickman's ceremony she sounded more like she was spouting an ideology than actually celebrating a victory.

    Plus, as for Cyclops...no, I'm sorry, I have to disagree. I'm not seeing any warmth or humour from that one; in fact, he sounds exactly like when he was preaching Hope as the mutant Messiah and embraced the power of the Phoenix.

  2. #632
    BANNED spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    If you say so; personally I found everyone's dialogue to be even colder and more militant here than in those prior scenarios. I'm not picking up any of the warmth Storm usually exudes in such speeches, such as when she was addressing the people of Wakanda's praise; in Hickman's ceremony she sounded more like she was spouting an ideology than actually celebrating a victory.

    Plus, as for Cyclops...no, I'm sorry, I have to disagree. I'm not seeing any warmth or humour from that one; in fact, he sounds exactly like when he was preaching Hope as the mutant Messiah and embraced the power of the Phoenix.
    I agree. On the ressurrection thing Storm seemed like a church leader on these extremist churchs

  3. #633
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    History is written by the winner. Integration is also determined by the dominant. Simple put fans want assimilation, not coexistence when Mutants are ready to reintegrate into the human world it will be on their terms. Cohabitation has always been on humans terms which means mutants give up stuff to be part of the world, In fact it passes just giving up stuff it is completely to lose yourself into the culture. Native Americans had to change their way of life to "coexist" with the colonists. People never think what another society gives to exist with others.

    Coexist- I live by my neighbor and I don't say jack to them and I don't interact with them but we are living in peace
    Assimilation-I dress and act like my neighbors, I give up with makes my culture unique to blend into them

    X-men/Xavier's dream is always bit of BS, The terms to living peacefully with means no unique mutant culture and other things. Mutants separating themselves adding "value" to their culture means that if you truly want to peace with and live them. Humans have adapt to them and integrate mutant culture into their society. More cohabitation ala couple when they come together in an apartment/house the give up each of their stuff and merge together. Mutants have always been expected to assimilate give up most things they have which is why mutants and minorities have been abused in these situations. Again when Mutants are ready to reintegrate into the human world it will be on their terms. Living in peace with humans has never been a fair exchange for mutants.

    Truthfully mutants have been around they would have naturally gravitated to each other they would have honestly be more Genoshas, Tians and District X /mutant towns around the world especially with the prejudice. Hickman had to speed and create something that should have been around. This set up honestly should have been happening on Genosha without scifi aspects of the story. The X-editors kept feeling the need to reduce the mutant population not understanding real-life minorities, for example, the US has 327 million people and Black people make up 12 percent, Latino/Hispanic make up 16 percent, White makes up 72 percent. They thought they need to reduce mutant population to make them feel like a "minority". 42 million out of 327 million is small. Mutant worldwide was less than 20 million(?)
    I just want to say, I don't necessarily agree with your definition of co-existence against assimilation. Co-existence doesn't mean giving up your own culture just to peacefully exist in another environment, or at least not in the modern sense; co-existence in a modern day scenario equates to, say, bringing children of different backgrounds under one school and having opportunities to learn and experience those cultural differences in an open and honest space. Assemblies, for example, on top of the obvious; letting the children interact. People need to be allowed to converse and question those differences while still finding some common ground that makes them realise "Hey, you're not so different; we can make this work."

    But, in regards to mutants specifically; surely most of mutant culture was born from human culture? Because up until very, very, very recently, it was emphasised that mutants are not this alien species; they are the children of humans. They are biologically identical to humans, in fact, as Moira herself commented to Senator Robert Kelly when he was running for president. That's not to say that a new, unique culture won't or shouldn't form from Krakoa, of course (because that's inevitable) but most of those mutants have held their own human heritages in high regard? Gambit and Rogue, for example, are fiercely proud of their Cajun and Mississippi roots, as is Dani Moonstar of her Cheyenne heritage? Ororo herself is African royalty both by blood and marriage? Each of which carried their own unique rituals, beliefs and principals that informed each character's perspectives and beliefs. I'm curious; does all of that get suddenly disavowed? Simply on the basis that it might be 'too human'?

  4. #634
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    Those are the stories i want. ll

    I don't get it. When most mutants end up saving the world at a time or two besides it being called a nation. How is Krakoa any different than Avengers towers, or Dr. Strange's sactuary? It's not like they just let anybody in there. And it's not like the avengers hang out with humans much themselves. Maybe in a bar or whatever but in general they don't. How many times has hercules said mortals were weak but this dialogue people seem to feel is too much. Having an "Avenger's mansion" where you can have peace is a crazy idea.
    Not saying you're wrong (you're not!) But I think the big difference here is that the X-Men weren't just an exclusive club, at least in terms of character; that is, they're an entire people outside of being a team, most of whom have families and relations who are 100% human. Some are hated and scorned, kicked out and disowned, but at the same time some are still loved and embraced despite being sent away to school to learn. Jubilee, for example, has adopted a human son while Remy has strong links to a human guild of thieves and his adoptive parents within who, while they lived apart, didn't feel quite so separated.

    I think it's the idea of the "Us VS Them" mentality translating to those past relationships that people worry about; do all the lessons that Tante Mattie have taught Remy matter anymore seeing as she's now 'just a human'? Will we get situations of mutants stating "A human can't truly love their mutant child," as is sometimes seen in the case of interracial births, marriages and adoptions? Storm and Cyclops tones here in regards to this broad-brush of 'Man,' in addition to how quickly Scott was to turn his back on the FF while mentioning Franklin seems to be giving that vibe to some?

    It's the familial and friendly ties people don't want to see broken; because, from what we can see right now, Xavier and Magneto mean what they say about man not being welcome on Krakoa. That separation and self-segregation is the only way, despite what we've seen contrary.

    Yes, those instances are rare and imperfect; but those bonds were still important in the overall message. It's disingenuous to toss them completely out the window, justified as the mutants may be.

  5. #635
    Astonishing Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    If people are thinking everything gonna be all fine forever they are wrong. Need some big drama.
    Lol. Not *all* fine, *all* forever.

  6. #636
    Astonishing Member Abe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    I just want to say, I don't necessarily agree with your definition of co-existence against assimilation. Co-existence doesn't mean giving up your own culture just to peacefully exist in another environment, or at least not in the modern sense; co-existence in a modern day scenario equates to, say, bringing children of different backgrounds under one school and having opportunities to learn and experience those cultural differences in an open and honest space. Assemblies, for example, on top of the obvious; letting the children interact. People need to be allowed to converse and question those differences while still finding some common ground that makes them realise "Hey, you're not so different; we can make this work."

    But, in regards to mutants specifically; surely most of mutant culture was born from human culture? Because up until very, very, very recently, it was emphasised that mutants are not this alien species; they are the children of humans. They are biologically identical to humans, in fact, as Moira herself commented to Senator Robert Kelly when he was running for president. That's not to say that a new, unique culture won't or shouldn't form from Krakoa, of course (because that's inevitable) but most of those mutants have held their own human heritages in high regard? Gambit and Rogue, for example, are fiercely proud of their Cajun and Mississippi roots, as is Dani Moonstar of her Cheyenne heritage? Ororo herself is African royalty both by blood and marriage? Each of which carried their own unique rituals, beliefs and principals that informed each character's perspectives and beliefs. I'm curious; does all of that get suddenly disavowed? Simply on the basis that it might be 'too human'?
    That's an excellent post. Thanks!
    Last edited by Abe; 10-13-2019 at 12:14 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Not saying you're wrong (you're not!) But I think the big difference here is that the X-Men weren't just an exclusive club, at least in terms of character; that is, they're an entire people outside of being a team, most of whom have families and relations who are 100% human. Some are hated and scorned, kicked out and disowned, but at the same time some are still loved and embraced despite being sent away to school to learn. Jubilee, for example, has adopted a human son while Remy has strong links to a human guild of thieves and his adoptive parents within who, while they lived apart, didn't feel quite so separated.

    I think it's the idea of the "Us VS Them" mentality translating to those past relationships that people worry about; do all the lessons that Tante Mattie have taught Remy matter anymore seeing as she's now 'just a human'? Will we get situations of mutants stating "A human can't truly love their mutant child," as is sometimes seen in the case of interracial births, marriages and adoptions? Storm and Cyclops tones here in regards to this broad-brush of 'Man,' in addition to how quickly Scott was to turn his back on the FF while mentioning Franklin seems to be giving that vibe to some?

    It's the familial and friendly ties people don't want to see broken; because, from what we can see right now, Xavier and Magneto mean what they say about man not being welcome on Krakoa. That separation and self-segregation is the only way, despite what we've seen contrary.

    Yes, those instances are rare and imperfect; but those bonds were still important in the overall message. It's disingenuous to toss them completely out the window, justified as the mutants may be.
    But thats the thing they aren't tossed out. At least in my mind but thats for the story to really tell. Nothing has said people have to cut those ties. No one has said Paige can't go see her mother or her siblings those are assumptions people are making on mutants having a safe space. For instance Storm iin the preview is talking about humans but how could she be talking about ALL humans when she is currently not only dating a human but one that didn't even recognize her nation. so i think it's the fans inserting that us vs them mentality and not what's happening in universe.

    Mutants are doing the opposite of hurting humans right now but they are also making sure they aren't all up in their face making them think of the potential threat that isn't. Falling back into a space that lets themselves and humanity feel safe with planned interaction to help inform the narrative is good for both sides right now. There are human superhumans that hate humans a lot more than the average mutant.As we see in story after story.
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  8. #638
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrancejameson View Post
    You’re still misinterpreting my point with your idea of inheritance. That’s interesting because that is exactly the ideology that majority of mutants on Krakoa are operating under. Hickman has kept the idea that mutants are the next logical step in traditional and/or biological unchecked human evolution. The X-gene genetically enhances the human condition. The only way to successfully predict a mutant birth (short of a precog) is to genetically engineer one, or you hope a mutant couple gets pregnant. Mutants are genetically enhanced humans that cannot be controlled. The fear of the unknown will always drive intellects to probe further. Men and women with exceptional intelligence always find ways to enhance themselves to compete with beings well above their weight class.

    I think it’s so beautiful because it further explains why Forge was used as prime example for why his mutation isn’t considered omega level. T’Challa and Shuri both come up with tech that could keep up with Forge. That’s not even acknowledging inventions from the likes of Reed Richards, Tony Stark, Peter Parker, Hank Pym, Riri Williams, Moon Girl, Valeria Richards or Doctor Doom. Human ingenuity and intelligence will always seek to improve on the human condition. While mutants would wait to inherit the earth through overwhelming mutant births to potentially stumble across a mutant time manipulator, there are humans with enough mental fortitude and imagination to invent a time machine for themselves.

    Doom is the best example I could describe. He’s is not an outright mutant hating bigot. He believes everyone is beneath him. He alone has provided so many enhancements to himself that it would be illogical to suggest that he hasn’t altered his own evolutionary trajectory. He himself poses a threat to mutants inheriting the earth. He has improved on his human condition in such a way that mutation is of no consequence to him. His own desire and natural born right for self preservation is expressed through the technological advancements applied to his own being and his surroundings. What if there was an entire population of people like Doom? The kicker is... there are.

    Human hate/fear of the unknown fuels rage against mutants just as much or maybe even more so than it fuels the desire to protect the mortal flesh. Mutants as a whole are thinking humans are going to collectively sit by and wait to die without a will, leaving all of earth to their rightful heirs. Moira, Xavier and Magneto know different. They know ultimately humans are the old decrepit billionaire that married a hot young bimbo with big fake **** and bad dye job and intends to leave her (homo novissima) everything in the will to completely leave out their disappointing children from a previous marriage. You want to see hate and fear as the ultimate big bad. But as Hickman’s story beautifully illustrates, the desire for humans to improve on their genetic evolution at will is the real monster mutants will never overcome. It’s a natural born part of the human condition. In many ways humans want to achieve everlasting life. Mutants have no way of combating that when that’s exactly what they want for themselves. To really defeat the humans and dismantle the hate before them, mutants would essentially have to burn down their own homes to get the humans in check.
    But I don’t think that humans wanting to be greater than they are, on its face, he problem that mutants are fighting against. What the Librarian is insinuating is that the homo novissima is a direct cause of humans’ hatred of feeing obsolete in the face of mutantkind. Where that ends and where genuine human curiosity starts is something I’m not really sure about nor know if there is any real distinction when talking about how that will lead to the homo novissima. But, it was added that machinery like the Sentinels and Nimrod were used explicitly to keep mutants down (and possibly even exterminate them if possible) while they continue to forge their own path in evolution.

    Aggression against the mutants is ultimately what defeats them because we wouldn’t know a timeline where mutants start to integrate the same technology into their own self (I guess we are starting to see that with Xavier, to tremendous results) or what that could result in. And biologically, mutants are given the advantage based on the power sets they’re all given because all their mutations are in essence “nature’s self-defense mechanisms” against an invading species. While ingenuity of the human mind is a powerful thing, as we’ve seen multiple times when Doom finds a way to achieve godhood or how Iron Man gets a new suit to do whatever, each mutant is given something that helps them survive whatever change is happening in their space. Humans throw Mother Mold and Mutants get Moira to find a way to defeat that with the nature of her power.



    And to the “everlasting life” thing, I don’t believe that is something that could ever be achieved with humans. While what has happened leads them to becoming homo novissima and I’m sure there’s some human who’s achieved some sort of immortality in Marvel, whenever we see the end of the universe, it’s always a mutant that tends to outlive everything. I do agree that the X-amen shouldn’t take their victories for granted, but I don’t think they’re wrong for thinking the way they do, especially with how good they’ve got it now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starfish View Post
    By that definition, "natural" evolution ended the moment we became tool users or began to select our partners by any other criteria than pure animalistic instinct. Even if one wants to make the arbitrary distinction of "natural" vs "unnatural" (is cooking food natural? is clothing? what about glasses, vaccines, or surgery etc? Where to draw the line between natural and unnatural applications of tool usage? Is using a telepathic supercomputer to bring back the souls of the dead natural, too?), mutants were created by giant space beings playing god with magic superscience, so they are hardly more or less natural than the Children of the Vault, for example.
    What is “natural” is defined in the book and those are the parameters we have to go off of for the sake of the argument. The distinction of “nature vs technology” is the biggest one we have to go off of. From the Librarian’s words, humans had no longer become beholden to their environment and that meant stepping outside of their set boundaries to bypass the next step in evolution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nazrel View Post
    Already been through this conversation, but they do not come off that way when viewed entirely through the lens of New X-Men; and my attempt to logically reconcile these two depictions via a presumption of when the change over in leadership took place also appears to have been incorrect... so, they were inconsistently written.

    So, yes, my bad.
    I think it’s the circumstances as well as who was guarding them at the time. In the CW tie-in, this was a full breakout and we saw the scope of how terrifying the situation was. For the New X-Men, even though it was a couple of students, the situation wasn’t nearly as dire and O.N.E. still interrogated Anole about their whereabouts. Plus, it’s an internment camp for mutants so there isn’t too much they can do when they have the power to break out.

  9. #639
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    But thats the thing they aren't tossed out. At least in my mind but thats for the story to really tell. Nothing has said people have to cut those ties. No one has said Paige can't go see her mother or her siblings those are assumptions people are making on mutants having a safe space. For instance Storm iin the preview is talking about humans but how could she be talking about ALL humans when she is currently not only dating a human but one that didn't even recognize her nation. so i think it's the fans inserting that us vs them mentality and not what's happening in universe.

    Mutants are doing the opposite of hurting humans right now but they are also making sure they aren't all up in their face making them think of the potential threat that isn't. Falling back into a space that lets themselves and humanity feel safe with planned interaction to help inform the narrative is good for both sides right now. There are human superhumans that hate humans a lot more than the average mutant.As we see in story after story.
    But doesn't the dialogue itself enforce the "Us VS Them" on its' own? For example: Polaris disparaging of if there's any good in "Humans." Or Emma's condescending "A little humanity to go with her excess of humanity." Clearly, these characters don't regard themselves as part of humanity in the same way we've seen other, more nuanced characters like Storm do...but then Storm seems go ahead and enforce that tone. There doesn't seem to be a difference in how she refers to "Man" as Emma, Polaris, Magneto or even Xavier do. Everyone has distanced themselves from the idea of humanity if only in how they refer to them...so what's to say Hickman won't further cut those human ties? Regardless of what they meant to the characters or even informed what they're even about? I agree that the mutants need a safe space and nation to build upon, definitely...but I don't think it should come at the cost of just ignoring their human roots. They are still human; just the next step of it.

    (But then: I vehemently disagree with the idea that Xavier's original dream had to 'die' at all--I think that was up to the writers to make work. Bendis looked like he was trying to call attention to it, at least.)
    Last edited by Domino_Dare-Doll; 10-13-2019 at 12:39 PM.

  10. #640
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starfish View Post
    Evolution is not directed, though. There are no predetermined "next steps". The next step is whatever survives, be that evolved humans, mutants, machines, or hyper-intelligent squids. Considering mutants seem to lose out every time unless heavily rigging the game in their favour by repeatedly resetting the timeline while giving themselves a headstart with previous knowledge, I'm at the moment more inclined to categorize them as "dead end" instead of the "next step".
    This. There is no ‘next step’ in evolution, there is no ‘inheritors of the earth’. Evolution doesn’t work to make species ‘better.’ Better is purely a judgement call and sometimes social Darwinist b.s. The tyrannosaurus is ‘better/ superior’ in every possible way to say the chicken. Yet chickens are around and tyrannosauruses are gone. The scientific opinions are that dinosaurs largely died out and eventually evolved into birds. So chickens literally ended up being the ‘next steps’ in evolution from dinosaurs.

  11. #641
    Magneto-centric Rivka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anyajenkins View Post
    This. There is no ‘next step’ in evolution, there is no ‘inheritors of the earth’. Evolution doesn’t work to make species ‘better.’ Better is purely a judgement call and sometimes social Darwinist b.s. The tyrannosaurus is ‘better/ superior’ in every possible way to say the chicken. Yet chickens are around and tyrannosauruses are gone. The scientific opinions are that dinosaurs largely died out and eventually evolved into birds. So chickens literally ended up being the ‘next steps’ in evolution from dinosaurs.
    Speaking truth, anyajenkins! Just watched "The Day the Dinosaurs Died" on PBS' Nova last night. Oh my god, the earth became hell in 11 minutes after that asteroid strike. And only a few species survived. Those little rat like guys that burrowed deep in the earth, that T-Rex didn't even see because they were too small, they are our ancestors. And yes, every time you see robins pulling up worms on your lawn in the spring, they are the direct descendants of T-Rex.

    Evolution doesn't work the way Mr. Hickman thinks it does--in fact, he seems to be modeling the social Darwinists more than Darwin's actual theories. But popular culture and science fiction and comic books *think* evolution works that way, and it makes for exciting stories.

  12. #642
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    Quote Originally Posted by anyajenkins View Post
    This. There is no ‘next step’ in evolution, there is no ‘inheritors of the earth’. Evolution doesn’t work to make species ‘better.’ Better is purely a judgement call and sometimes social Darwinist b.s. The tyrannosaurus is ‘better/ superior’ in every possible way to say the chicken. Yet chickens are around and tyrannosauruses are gone. The scientific opinions are that dinosaurs largely died out and eventually evolved into birds. So chickens literally ended up being the ‘next steps’ in evolution from dinosaurs.
    Chicken are the best!! eat some on the lunch

    the process of evolution is random, there is a mutation if that helps to survive and procreate it will garante the survival for the next generation.
    now if doesn't help on survival and procreation, bye bye

    Like we see that some mutants can't procreate because they doesn't have sexual organs

  13. #643
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    I respectfully disagree; Hickman seems to have made it plain that the stance of "No humans on Krakoa" is firm and permanent. Perhaps it will change, but for now that's what I'm seeing from him.

    But doesn't the dialogue itself enforce the "Us VS Them" on its' own? For example: Polaris disparaging of if there's any good in "Humans." Or Emma's condescending "A little humanity to go with her excess of humanity." Clearly, these characters don't regard themselves as part of humanity in the same way we've seen other, more nuanced characters like Storm do...but then Storm seems go ahead and enforce that tone. There doesn't seem to be a difference in how she refers to "Man" as Emma, Polaris, Magneto or even Xavier do. Everyone has distanced themselves from the idea of humanity if only in how they refer to them...so what's to say Hickman won't further cut those human ties? Regardless of what they meant to the characters or even informed what they're even about? I agree that the mutants need a safe space and nation to build upon, definitely...but I don't think it should come at the cost of just ignoring their human roots. They are still human; just the next step of it.

    (But then: I vehemently disagree with the idea that Xavier's original dream had to 'die' at all--I think that was up to the writers to make work. Bendis looked like he was trying to call attention to it, at least.)
    Isn't Shogo on Krakoa tho?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivka View Post
    Speaking truth, anyajenkins! Just watched "The Day the Dinosaurs Died" on PBS' Nova last night. Oh my god, the earth became hell in 11 minutes after that asteroid strike. And only a few species survived. Those little rat like guys that burrowed deep in the earth, that T-Rex didn't even see because they were too small, they are our ancestors. And yes, every time you see robins pulling up worms on your lawn in the spring, they are the direct descendants of T-Rex.

    Evolution doesn't work the way Mr. Hickman thinks it does--in fact, he seems to be modeling the social Darwinists more than Darwin's actual theories. But popular culture and science fiction and comic books *think* evolution works that way, and it makes for exciting stories.
    The only way to ensure evolution will result on stronger species like the darwinist is to use science to modifies DNA and better breeding.
    That is what humans ddi to result on homo novissima.

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    Astonishing Member Frobisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivka View Post
    Speaking truth, anyajenkins! Just watched "The Day the Dinosaurs Died" on PBS' Nova last night. Oh my god, the earth became hell in 11 minutes after that asteroid strike. And only a few species survived. Those little rat like guys that burrowed deep in the earth, that T-Rex didn't even see because they were too small, they are our ancestors. And yes, every time you see robins pulling up worms on your lawn in the spring, they are the direct descendants of T-Rex.

    Evolution doesn't work the way Mr. Hickman thinks it does--in fact, he seems to be modeling the social Darwinists more than Darwin's actual theories. But popular culture and science fiction and comic books *think* evolution works that way, and it makes for exciting stories.
    I’m sure he does know that. How could he not? It’s just not really related to the themes of mutation and evolution in Marvel comics, which are more plot driven, and basically an excuse for flying people super punching each other.

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