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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderNight View Post
    I honestly feel like there's no need for a titans, YJ and JL at the same time.
    Depends on what the team's functions are. Ideally, there would be a team closer to the JL, an independent team and a team to handle shadier missions.

  2. #62
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    Depends on what the team's functions are. Ideally, there would be a team closer to the JL, an independent team and a team to handle shadier missions.
    As long as the team that handles shadier missions is actually made up of characters that would do shadier missions, rather than characters being depicted completely different to prior characterizations/differently than they are in other books.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    As long as the team that handles shadier missions is actually made up of characters that would do shadier missions, rather than characters being depicted completely different to prior characterizations/differently than they are in other books.
    The shady team would need a moral overseer to keep them from going to far, but the Titans franchise has plenty of shady types without needing to change anyone's characterization.

  4. #64
    Fantastic Member Riv86672's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    I think so. Nightwing/Robin, Raven, Starfire, Cyborg and Beast Boy should be the core Titans. They're the characters everyone knows. There's always room to expand beyond that, or have one of them take a break from the team every now and then. But they're the characters the wider audience know. The mainstream audience doesn't know Titans as a team of sidekicks.
    Well put.
    My thinking in keeping them mostly on the sidelines is, I think theyíve moved past the Titans stage. Itíll always be ďtheirĒ team, but they donít really need it any more, and having them on it, or AS it, makes it more a Young Adult Titans. The newer generations need a way to establish themselves the way Dick & Co. did. These OG Titans need to be fielding solo series, or prominent support roles in established books, joining the Justice League...
    One major drawback these heroes face IMO, is at DC itís basically just the JLA. At Marvel, characters that started as teens and have been allowed to mature (the OG X-Men for example) have different teams doing different things they can all be part of, to include non mutant teams like the Avengers. They donít all need to crowd into one team and be seen as pushing older heroes out. Itís just a more fluid situation.
    DC set it up in a way that itíd make sense for the JLA to be the next step for the Titans, leaving YJ to graduate to the Titans, and so on...but thatíll never happen so thereís a huge bottleneck of characters that will never be allowed to go anywhere.
    The best DC can do is keep rotating them amongst themselves and try and make it interesting.
    Taking Dick & Co. out of the equation at least frees up a little space at the lower level.

  5. #65
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    I think DC really needs to break the expectation that the Titans need to graduate to the JL. it shouldn't be a stepping stone. It's difficult to do when the five leads are former sidekicks and still very visibly tied to other franchises, but not impossible. We just need the right writing talent. I don't think any Titan needs to be on the League except for Wally as the Flash. The expectation kind of created the bottleneck, but even then it wasn't as bad until Tim's generation took the Titan name and added the Teen back. I think the only generation that should be called Titans is Dick's; firmly drop the teen at this point, and I don't want to see any other Robin as part of that group ever. The nexts gens of sidekicks can GTFO and carve out their own niche.

    Pushing them into solos may be a good idea in theory, but I just don't think any of them are designed to sustain a solo at this point besides Dick (with the notable exception of Wally, but he needs to be the only Flash to do it, and that avenue is closed). And even Dick mainly carries one under the Bat-brand. And I think that's ok; they were designed as an ensemble cast to build each other up, sometimes that means the characters can't really go off on their own and have the same impact. It's why very few X-Men other than Wolverine can last long out in the wilderness on their own.

  6. #66
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderNight View Post
    I honestly feel like there's no need for a titans, YJ and JL at the same time.
    Probably not a need for a Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman at the same time, either.
    "There's magic in the sound of analog audio." - CNET.

  7. #67
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Stone View Post
    Probably not a need for a Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman at the same time, either.
    Except all three of them are distinct from each other in ways that the three teams aren't always at a glance.

  8. #68
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    DC set it up in a way that it’d make sense for the JLA to be the next step for the Titans, leaving YJ to graduate to the Titans, and so on...but that’ll never happen so there’s a huge bottleneck of characters that will never be allowed to go anywhere.
    Which really was a bad idea. It didn't used to be this way. Maybe with the original Teen Titans (though really, they seemed as much a social club as anything in early days), but not with the NTT. They were their own thing, and not treated as junior league for many years. YJ, again, specifically being kids (as were the original Teen Titans), were kinda grow-into-JLish, maybe - they were certainly more explicitly and directly monitored than the original TT were) but I'd have never expected them to become a new Teen Titans. Terrible decision, IMO, I also don't like "mixed" teams, where some members are explicitly junior and meant to learn/take orders from others, so that factors in. As does my annoyance in the lack of allowing Raven and Gar to be grown ups. But the YJ name didn't keep (though there's a resurgence now, of course), and then there's Damian with his TT instead of doing his own thing. Also don't think Robins should always be leaders, but that's a separate issue.

    One thing that made the early NTT different as a team to me (and probably non-coincidentally more X-Menish) was that for the most the part they all in lived in one city (speedster exception), and didn't have their own books. They were a team first and foremost. The JL or even YJ are more spread out and have things going on in other cities and such. It's also a reason I could see Titans-membership not being a permanent thing - life takes individuals in different directions and they don't all have flight powers or super-speed jets to take them back to NYC at a moment's notice. I didn't like Wally's waffling over whether he wanted powers or to be a hero, though I acknowledge it as the sort of angsty storyline characters have occasionally been given since the bronze age (well, probably earlier, if we want to talk about Peter Parker and how many times he'd ditched that Spider-Suit over in his NY). The powers/health issue was even odder. I'd probably have had him pulled too many ways and end up saying "this team is a full time job and I already have a full time job" because before the Post-COIE retcon, Wally wasn't a sidekick, really. He was a solo hero in his own city. That's the way I'd define them differently - the Titans (adult version) is a full-time gig, where the JLA is a supplement to solo heroing. Only one kid-team at a time, and it's a part time gig for its participants.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 10-12-2019 at 02:50 PM.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Then you just have to hope that the writers for the flagship books actually want to use the sidekicks (which isn't always the case, unfortunately).
    Joshua Williamson said that he wanted to use Kid Flash more often, but wasn't always allowed to, due to him being in Teen Titans. Same with Wally and Titans.

  10. #70
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Joshua Williamson said that he wanted to use Kid Flash more often, but wasn't always allowed to, due to him being in Teen Titans. Same with Wally and Titans.
    Which is fair, and good to hear, but also probably not true in all instances.

  11. #71
    Fantastic Member Riv86672's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Which really was a bad idea. It didn't used to be this way. Maybe with the original Teen Titans (though really, they seemed as much a social club as anything in early days), but not with the NTT. They were their own thing, and not treated as junior league for many years. YJ, again, specifically being kids (as were the original Teen Titans), were kinda grow-into-JLish, maybe - they were certainly more explicitly and directly monitored than the original TT were) but I'd have never expected them to become a new Teen Titans. Terrible decision, IMO, I also don't like "mixed" teams, where some members are explicitly junior and meant to learn/take orders from others, so that factors in. As does my annoyance in the lack of allowing Raven and Gar to be grown ups. But the YJ name didn't keep (though there's a resurgence now, of course), and then there's Damian with his TT instead of doing his own thing. Also don't think Robins should always be leaders, but that's a separate issue.

    One thing that made the early NTT different as a team to me (and probably non-coincidentally more X-Menish) was that for the most the part they all in lived in one city (speedster exception), and didn't have their own books. They were a team first and foremost. The JL or even YJ are more spread out and have things going on in other cities and such. It's also a reason I could see Titans-membership not being a permanent thing - life takes individuals in different directions and they don't all have flight powers or super-speed jets to take them back to NYC at a moment's notice. I didn't like Wally's waffling over whether he wanted powers or to be a hero, though I acknowledge it as the sort of angsty storyline characters have occasionally been given since the bronze age (well, probably earlier, if we want to talk about Peter Parker and how many times he'd ditched that Spider-Suit over in his NY). The powers/health issue was even odder. I'd probably have had him pulled too many ways and end up saying "this team is a full time job and I already have a full time job" because before the Post-COIE retcon, Wally wasn't a sidekick, really. He was a solo hero in his own city. That's the way I'd define them differently - the Titans (adult version) is a full-time gig, where the JLA is a supplement to solo heroing. Only one kid-team at a time, and it's a part time gig for its participants.
    What a great response; you have a real grasp on this subject...

  12. #72
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Riv86672, I agree with you on at least some of the Titans moving on. I'm not sure if it's best to keep the Titans name for newer team or have them define their own. Practically speaking, there's a lot to be said for name recognition and marketing on Titans, but it can also theoretically be problematic if people are expecting a certain group when they pick it up and don't get it (and you have to address gradual cast changes v. abrupt shakeups). Then again, we've probably already moved past that, since we went from the Fab Five to having Lilith, etc. and then of course the NTT and on to Tim's team. Thematically, I like each group of young ones choosing their own name (I'm not fond of adult-legacies, though I didn't used to mind them), but I'm not sure that can outweigh the business perspective issues and brand recognition. I don't know that I'd keep them in a certain age-bracket, but it does help for a certain degree of relatability between characters and younger characters are more likely to be the phase of life that suits the setup. Though Donna managed while married. For some characters, those who never plan to leave the city, it might work for very long-term.

    And, of course, there's the issue of whether the characters are able to support solo books.

  13. #73
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Except all three of them are distinct from each other in ways that the three teams aren't always at a glance.
    I think the line-ups of each team would play a factor in distinguishing them.

    DC has a lot of characters that work best in teams.
    More than one team can accommodate.

    While some readers would blindly buy a JLA book or a Titans book on name alone, there are readers that would buy Team X (whatever it's called) if Vixen, Zatanna, Blue Beetle, Booster Gold, Firestorm, Cyborg, Fire & Ice, Starfire, Nightwing, Huntress, Power Girl, Wildcat, Batgirl, Batwoman, Green Arrow or Black Canary were in it. (Or whatever character is someone's fave.)
    It really wouldn't matter why the team came together or what their 'mission' was.
    Only that their favorite character was on the team.
    "There's magic in the sound of analog audio." - CNET.

  14. #74
    Fantastic Member Riv86672's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Riv86672, I agree with you on at least some of the Titans moving on. I'm not sure if it's best to keep the Titans name for newer team or have them define their own. Practically speaking, there's a lot to be said for name recognition and marketing on Titans, but it can also theoretically be problematic if people are expecting a certain group when they pick it up and don't get it (and you have to address gradual cast changes v. abrupt shakeups). Then again, we've probably already moved past that, since we went from the Fab Five to having Lilith, etc. and then of course the NTT and on to Tim's team. Thematically, I like each group of young ones choosing their own name (I'm not fond of adult-legacies, though I didn't used to mind them), but I'm not sure that can outweigh the business perspective issues and brand recognition. I don't know that I'd keep them in a certain age-bracket, but it does help for a certain degree of relatability between characters and younger characters are more likely to be the phase of life that suits the setup. Though Donna managed while married. For some characters, those who never plan to leave the city, it might work for very long-term.

    And, of course, there's the issue of whether the characters are able to support solo books.
    Ha, another excellent read.
    You do a good job in pointing out the line DC walks between what makes sense/what’s good for the characters, and what’s best financially/putting recognized names under the same banner.

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