HOX/POX OOC X-men?

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

You still use "should." Yes, in an ideal world they should do that.

But they do not live in an ideal world. And that system was not working, it was killing them. It is obvious that they choose the lesser evil. Xavier would prefer to live in coexistence with humans, we have seen that he prefers it in numerous previous lives of Moira. But if it has not worked, if they continue to die, what is the alternative?

But...why should they have to?

They were born where they were born; they have as much right to thrive within those communities as anyone else--to be able to express and relish their unique heritages without being forced away. Their roots go just as deep as anyone else's...why should arseholes be allowed to win by making them feel like they have to run?

They should have the right and means to defend themselves without picking up and scattering. Otherwise nobody else gets to know anyone else; everyone's just kept as this strange, distant 'other.' To understand others, you have to empathise with others; that can only happen by getting to know people.

[Ulfhammer]

If I'm being honest, the biggest OOC reactions I see are the way some of the senior X-Men, Scott specifically, are accepting Charles direction without question. How are fans integrating this attitude with Messiah Complex? Did it really get so bad that knuckling under to Charles absolute authority seemed like the only option?

I'm convinced one of two things are happening. First, this just may be how Hickman wants to write these characters. He does seem to have a free hand for the most part, maybe he's just doing what he think needs to be done to reinvigorate the franchise and characterization and canon are the victims of that to some extent. This group of X-Men is far more cohesive than any we've seen for a long time.

The other option is Charles has modified certain X-Men to fit his needs. He's shown he's capable of doing this in the past, as recently as the Astonishing Annual. The resurrection process seems tailored to facilitate this kind of editing. Clearly he feels that many sacrifices are going to be required for mutants to survive. If he had to do a little tweaking here or there, especially of certain memories or attitudes, that seems like something Charles could justify to himself. He's done it often enough before.

Perhaps most telling of all, is that Hickman is unwilling to discuss, at least at this point, the traversal from the end of Rosenberg's Uncanny to the status quo in HOX 1. It seems to me that he's simply glossing over this transition because they represent inconvenient, and in his mind irrelevant, details.

[RachelGrey]

But...why should they have to?

They were born where they were born; they have as much right to thrive within those communities as anyone else--to be able to express and relish their unique heritages without being forced away. Their roots go just as deep as anyone else's...why should arseholes be allowed to win by making them feel like they have to run?

They should have the right and means to defend themselves without picking up and scattering. Otherwise nobody else gets to know anyone else; everyone's just kept as this strange, distant 'other.' To understand others, you have to empathise with others; that can only happen by getting to know people.

The problem is that they don't have the means because the local governments do not support their right to equality and the local governments provide financial and legal assistance to the groups that want to perpetuate genocide on the mutants.

Look at our world today and how many refugees are fleeing from persecution and oppression. The X-men fleeing and uniting on Krakoa are no different than any other minority fleeing from overwhelming oppression and subjugation. What options are there, remain as targets for genocide, or flee to freedom.

This is no different than Exodus in the bible and the Jewish people fleeing the slavery, oppression, and subjugation of Egypt. They only had two options stay in the misery of slavery and being worked to death and having their women treated like sex slaves by the Egyptians, or flee to the hope of a promised land.

The only difference between the mutants and the Jewish people is that the mutants fled to an unpopulated island and they didn't supplant anyone in their new land. In the bible the Jewish people supplanted the Philistines to take over the land and territory of Israel.

To me this is the Exodus of mutant kind fleeing to the freedom of a new free nation where they can be safe, even if it's only temporary, it still allows them to regroup and prepare defences against the unending racism and genocide perpetuated by the human governments and their politically connected agencies of the world.

[Devaishwarya]

Also consider...
At the Council meeting...Ororo says that they don't have to run. They are given an option. They can choose to live outside of Krakoa.
So we can assume that those mutants on Krakoa are there because they want to be there. (Obviously, some would be there out of necessity).

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

Out of curiosity, how long has everyone been reading X-Men? I'm curious to see if it's certain fans who dislike this new direction. Like, I've been reading for decades and I hate this take on them. I agree that they are OOC and I think not addressing past characterization means that Hickman wants to write his versions of the characters and not the established versions which is a cop out IMO. I'm just curious if it's newer fans who like this new direction or if it's long time fans, or what.

Both reading and back-reading for a decade and hating the tone of the new direction, not necessarily the ideas being presented.

Emotionally, I feel manipulated and betrayed by characters like Charles and Moira and just cannot reconcile the voices of Scott and Ororo with even their Claremontian-era speeches. Something just sounds so detached and I'm not picking up the same amount of heart and closeness between the characters that other readers seem able to. It sounds very militant, aggressive and just clinical which always worked against the vibe that the X-Men characters kept up even in their most dire straits.

[Glio]

If I'm being honest, the biggest OOC reactions I see are the way some of the senior X-Men, Scott specifically, are accepting Charles direction without question. How are fans integrating this attitude with Messiah Complex? Did it really get so bad that knuckling under to Charles absolute authority seemed like the only option?

I'm convinced one of two things are happening. First, this just may be how Hickman wants to write these characters. He does seem to have a free hand for the most part, maybe he's just doing what he think needs to be done to reinvigorate the franchise and characterization and canon are the victims of that to some extent. This group of X-Men is far more cohesive than any we've seen for a long time.

The other option is Charles has modified certain X-Men to fit his needs. He's shown he's capable of doing this in the past, as recently as the Astonishing Annual. The resurrection process seems tailored to facilitate this kind of editing. Clearly he feels that many sacrifices are going to be required for mutants to survive. If he had to do a little tweaking here or there, especially of certain memories or attitudes, that seems like something Charles could justify to himself. He's done it often enough before.

Perhaps most telling of all, is that Hickman is unwilling to discuss, at least at this point, the traversal from the end of Rosenberg's Uncanny to the status quo in HOX 1. It seems to me that he's simply glossing over this transition because they represent inconvenient, and in his mind irrelevant, details.

Xavier is doing basically the same thing Scott did in Utopia but with more means and more mutants. Why should Scott be against him? He feels more comfortable in a military position than in politics, he should have no problem with Xavier carrying everything from Krakoa while he directs the X-men.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

I suppose it's a matter of trust… you trust Hickman, I don't…

Same, to be honest.

[RachelGrey]

Also consider...
At the Council meeting...Ororo says that they don't have to run. They are given an option. They can choose to live outside of Krakoa.
So we can assume that those mutants on Krakoa are there because they want to be there. (Obviously, some would be there out of necessity).

And one of the purposes of the Marauders is to rescue mutants who are being oppressed and hunted and help them get to the freedom of Krakoa and away from the humans who are trying to exterminate them.

I remember after Decimation, Storm went to Africa to try and help the depowered mutants who were being targeted and hunted down all over Africa. The regular humans took it as an opportunity to eliminate the depowered mutants once and for all regardless if they were trying to live peacefully after being depowered, they were still at target because they still used to be mutants.

The Purifiers took it as an opportunity to kill 3 busloads of kids right in front of the Xavier institute. How many Purifiers were put in jail, or did they all get slaps on the wrists by the judges because obviously they were just defending the safety and freedom of God fearing American humans who have more right to exist than those dirty mongrel mutants who are all the spawn of Satan.

The oppression and genocide of mutants is entrenched in human society world wide in the 616 Earth. The governments and agencies of the governments are openly participating in the ongoing genocide of mutant kind.

I don't understand how you fight for acceptance and equality when someone is holding a semi-automatic rifle and a big giant Sentinel at your head.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

Also consider...
At the Council meeting...Ororo says that they don't have to run. They are given an option. They can choose to live outside of Krakoa.
So we can assume that those mutants on Krakoa are there because they want to be there. (Obviously, some would be there out of necessity).

I do hope we get to see stories of the mutants who choose to live outside still, outside of Fallen Angels of course. It's just disheartening to think total social isolation is the only option here...and plus, some characters like Gambit and Jubilee tend to work really well with characters of all walks of life (the latter of who was an absolute doll in Patsy Walker: Hell-Cat.)

(I mean, I didn't love that Hell-Cat run...but I still loved Jubilee!)

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

And one of the purposes of the Marauders is to rescue mutants who are being oppressed and hunted and help them get to the freedom of Krakoa and away from the humans who are trying to exterminate them.

I remember after Decimation, Storm went to Africa to try and help the depowered mutants who were being targeted and hunted down all over Africa. The regular humans took it as an opportunity to eliminate the depowered mutants once and for all regardless if they were trying to live peacefully after being depowered, they were still at target because they still used to be mutants.

The Purifiers took it as an opportunity to kill 3 busloads of kids right in front of the Xavier institute. How many Purifiers were put in jail, or did they all get slaps on the wrists by the judges because obviously they were just defending the safety and freedom of God fearing American humans who have more right to exist than those dirty mongrel mutants who are all the spawn of Satan.

The oppression and genocide of mutants is entrenched in human society world wide in the 616 Earth. The governments and agencies of the governments are openly participating in the ongoing genocide of mutant kind.

I don't understand how you fight for acceptance and equality when someone is holding a semi-automatic rifle and a big giant Sentinel at your head.

But those are still governments and agencies; they don't speak for every human on the street. Hence some of the friendships the X-Men share with characters like Spider-Man or the Avengers; systematically, yes, I totally agree with you--but I still think Marvel needs to showcase the perspectives of the humans fighting for human rights (as I thought we had with Moira) rather than just one side. Bendis tried, to his credit and actually did a fairly good job of tackling the hypocrisy from within even that!

That's why I think it's wrong to 100% divorce the X-Men from the wider world, socially and not just in terms of public or political relations. I mean, political relations are all well and good...but they're only one half of this.

[Devaishwarya]

Yupp. Pretty much.

I think HiX-Man decided that those types of "We'll fight to the Death for the Dream!" stories have been told and done to death by various writers since Claremont and it has become quite stale and stagnant (and I whole-heartedly agree)...thus it was time to shake things up, vere off on a different angle, try something exciting and ballsy.
Ironically, they'll still be fighting for the right to exist and be but this time on more equal footing.

[RachelGrey]

But those are still governments and agencies; they don't speak for every human on the street. Hence some of the friendships the X-Men share with characters like Spider-Man or the Avengers; systematically, yes, I totally agree with you--but I still think Marvel needs to showcase the perspectives of the humans fighting for human rights (as I thought we had with Moira) rather than just one side. Bendis tried, to his credit and actually did a fairly good job of tackling the hypocrisy from within even that!

That's why I think it's wrong to 100% divorce the X-Men from the wider world, socially and not just in terms of public or political relations. I mean, political relations are all well and good...but they're only one half of this.

I think the problem is that even if your neighbor supports you, when the O.N.E. brings 100 soldiers and a few Sentinels to the home of your mutant friends next store to take them into permanent detention, you are probably scared and you stay in your house and lock your doors and windows and hope that those same government soldiers don't come after your family too.

Do I think that a lot of humans are too scared to openly support mutants, definitely, this happens everywhere. It happened in Germany. Heck the Germans were pretty hard core about killing anyone who tried to help the Jews escape, they acted as if you were a traitor to Germany if you provided succor to the Jews. I could imagine the O.N.E. finding a home used as an underground railroad for mutants and taking all of the humans in for indefinite questioning to find out where the mutants are going to.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

I think the problem is that even if your neighbor supports you, when the O.N.E. brings 100 soldiers and a few Sentinels to the home of your mutant friends next store to take them into permanent detention, you are probably scared and you stay in your house and lock your doors and windows and hope that those same government soldiers don't come after your family too.

Do I think that a lot of humans are too scared to openly support mutants, definitely, this happens everywhere. It happened in Germany. Heck the Germans were pretty hard core about killing anyone who tried to help the Jews escape, they acted as if you were a traitor to Germany if you provided succor to the Jews. I could imagine the O.N.E. finding a home used as an underground railroad for mutants and taking all of the humans in for indefinite questioning to find out where the mutants are going to.

Well, yeah, I agree with you there; Krakoa is a great idea in that respect and one that's been sorely needed. It's the total idea of isolating from said allies that I'm more against or, worse, suddenly turning around and declaring to a long time friend that "No, you know what, you're human so none of that matters! You're as bad as all of them!!"

Which, I'm not saying Hickman's intent might be to do...but to me as a reader it seems to come across that way so far.

[H-E-D]

Scott felt kinda broken in Rosencanny. Combine that with Xavier finally coming around to his Utopia-era philosphy, and I can see it.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

Scott felt kinda broken in Rosencanny. Combine that with Xavier finally coming around to his Utopia-era philosphy, and I can see it.

I dunno, I thought he was a great compromise between the growth that teen-Scott had been going through during X-Men Blue and his own solo coupled with the past experience of his classic self?
Kinda reminded me of a grown up X-Men: Evolution Scott, actually?

...At least until the fight with Wolverine...