Meaningful deaths and Death in the X-men Franchise

[Desmark]

Lol

anytime emma’s students die, when nightcrawler and cable died (“died” in cable’s case) in second coming, colossus dying to defeat the legacy virus, and cypher’s death.



>:^(

|;-) :-j 0:-)

[Snoop Dogg]

bruh i'm still crying and pi--

[Whim]

the problem is almost never are deaths actually meaningful. writers rely too much on pointless slaughter or "shock factor" deaths. "SOMEONE DIES THIS ISSUE" should not happen.

I'm still bitter about Kyle/Yost's New X-Men pointless slaughter. That whole era was "**** the X-Men". There was no reason for all of that. Just depowering and eviscerating most of the school ... for what?

A lot hasn't mattered like Wolverine, Cyclops, or Nightcrawler as you know they are coming back anyway.

I hate devaluing something that has stood for a long time. Thunderbird should stay dead just like Bucky should have.

Illyana's death actually had some meaning and I'm still not a fan of her coming back especially when she died as a child.

Jean in the Phoenix saga was one of the best written moments.

But what else has mattered? It's hard to say. Banshee's didn't connect and they already zombified him and brought him back.

I missed Pyro but his death actually had some meaning as well. Somewhat of a redemption too. While take his bro Avalanche that recent "death" felt as pointless as most.

[salarta]

Most of the time, character death is a pointless waste of potential. It's usually executed horribly, and done for poor reasons.

That said, the rare times I've seen it turn out to actually be a good thing have been when they emphasize the value of that character - NOT about affecting the other characters or moving the overall story forward (though one or both may happen as a natural consequence of what happens).

Flash briefly appearing to die in Justice League Unlimited when he went too fast had a lot of build-up focused on who he was, and really drove home that he truly is a superhero worth respecting - contrary to the "low-worth comic relief" perception that people could take from him leading up to that point.

Multiple episodes of Walking Dead in previous seasons devoted whole episodes to the characters before or as they died, such as Sasha sacrificing herself. You got to see how they developed, what mattered to them, and ultimately what they gave up or what everyone else lost in their death. Reactions from other characters tended to be to build up and honor the lost character's worth, not belittle it for the sake of everyone else.

By contrast, Dreamer's death on Gifted was IMO a strong example of horrible handling of character death. She only ended up at risk because everyone was written acting stupid, Lauren and Andy refused to do something with Dreamer's life on the line only to immediately do it once Dreamer died (making her death in vain), her death only served to move the plot and other characters' stories forward, and the show immediately rushed to its Cuckoo sisters plot twist as the final takeaway of the episode. There was no semblance of understanding the potential she had that was lost in her death, nor any respect for how big of a moment death is.

Death generally shouldn't happen because there are so many other things you can do instead. If you need the character gone, just give them a reason to go do other things. If you need something bad to happen, then depending on the type of setting it is, they could lose a limb. Or be tortured. Or witness and survive a genocide, as Polaris and Magneto have. There are a lot of non-death possibilities, and using death for shock value or to promote other characters cheapens and insults how weighty death really is.

[shooshoomanjoe]

Cipher and Warlocks deaths were meaningful.

Also the Mutant Massacre and Sunders death.

[H-E-D]

Bringing Colossus and Nightcrawler back was a mistake they dont have that big a fanbase and they've added literally nothing to the franchise the last 20 years despite multiple writers focusing on them.

I remember a lot of noise around Nightcrawler and his eventual resurrection.

Colossus had a good arc under Gillen.

[CRaymond]

Colossus and Nightcrawler are excellent deuteragonists with immediately identifiable appearances that signify X-Men. Killing them was cheap, bringing them back was healthy. Expecting them to carry a book in a manner similar to Gold, Red, Cyclops or Wolverine is foolhardy.

[hawkeyefan]

bruh i'm still crying and pi--

Leland!!!!

[coveredinbees]

Harry Leland!! That was an amazing scene!! Every time I read his "left arm" thought bubble I get a sense of dread.

Adrienne Frost's murder was a pivotal moment for Emma Frost. She drove off Gen X allowing them to be crucified on the lawn.

Jean's first death. Her death under Morrison, too. That changed the books and was a surprise.

Rusty's death was a huge bummer and I thought it was good. The Acolytes are nuts and were fraying a bit since the trial. Holocaust attacking and the ensuing mess were great and made them even more conflicted. His death didn't inspire them or anything, but it showed their model was unsustainable and they are a bit friendlier to each other in later appearances.

[Rosebunse]

I have to say, with the recent House/Power of X issues, Ruth/Blindfold's death has hit me harder than it did initially. Given that Hickman's planning, it seems like her death was meant to happen. And it's really, really sad to think that she killed herself at least partially because she knew that even in a mutant Utopia, she wouldn't have a place.

[jamesslow]

Harry Leland!! That was an amazing scene!! Every time I read his "left arm" thought bubble I get a sense of dread.

Adrienne Frost's murder was a pivotal moment for Emma Frost. She drove off Gen X allowing them to be crucified on the lawn.

Jean's first death. Her death under Morrison, too. That changed the books and was a surprise.

Rusty's death was a huge bummer and I thought it was good. The Acolytes are nuts and were fraying a bit since the trial. Holocaust attacking and the ensuing mess were great and made them even more conflicted. His death didn't inspire them or anything, but it showed their model was unsustainable and they are a bit friendlier to each other in later appearances.

I can't agree that Jean's death(s) under Morrison was surprising. The first time he killed her was on Asteroid M plunging towards the sun, and we all knew that could only give rise to her rebirth as Phoenix. Then shortly after she was indeed reborn as Phoenix, Morrison killed Jean again, which again came as no surprise to me since she could hardly be expected to continue on as Professor Phoenix in the Westchester Institute...

Don't get me started on how Morrison undid his own perfectly poignant killing of Erik by turning him into a drug-addled death camp commandant (while erasing the fantastic character of Xorn in one fell swoop), only to kill him again a few issues later in Planet X!

Why yes I hated the end of Morrison's run almost as I much as I loved the start of it... how ever did you guess?

[hawkeyefan]

I think that the issue is that from a writing perspective, superheroes are inherently different in this regard.

There is certainly dramatic value in character death. It can be used to establish or convey all kinds of things in fiction. So in a novel or a movie, or a comic that isn't about superheroes, it can pretty much be used in these ways. Also, in superhero stories where there is one creative force telling the story, and there won't be more down the road. So in something like Astro City, let's say, where it's solely Busiek's property and he has total creative control on what happens.

But with the superheroes at the Big Two, that's just not the case. The characters are going to continue to be published, and continue to be written by a succession of writers. And, the settings themselves allow for all manner of fantastic elements. These ingredients essentially mean that no significant death will stand. Even longstanding ones that were generally accepted, like Jean Grey and Barry Allen.

So, when a writer decides to kill off a main character, no matter how meaningful that story may be portrayed.....no matter how revered it is in the minds of readers....no matter how influential it is to the remaining characters and their ongoing stories.....it simply will not last. In that sense, superheroes are essentially immortal.

Since that's the case, I think it's far better when a writer simply doesn't bother to go that route. And in this case, has actually incorporated this idea of immortality into the story itself. I think it opens the door to some interesting ideas. I'm sure that different writers will use it in different ways, and I'm sure some will be better than others. But just the idea of death no longer having the same meaning for mutants.....it opens up so much possibility.

And it can always be undone. The story has established that it's a process, and any process can be disrupted. There are resources required, and so on.....so the in-story immortality can be removed at any point.

But that won't make super-heroes any less immortal. It'll just mark a return of dramatically meaningless deaths and increasingly convoluted ways to undo them.

[DurararaFTW]

Cable's had a few meaningful deaths, I do not consider his latest among them.

[sungila]

This place, that time & again & again

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together with family and friends

[Sutekh]

But with the superheroes at the Big Two, that's just not the case. The characters are going to continue to be published, and continue to be written by a succession of writers. And, the settings themselves allow for all manner of fantastic elements. These ingredients essentially mean that no significant death will stand. Even longstanding ones that were generally accepted, like Jean Grey and Barry Allen.

Yeah, that's kind of the thing. Jean belongs to Marvel. Not to Claremont & Byrne, or Morrison. No matter how fitting or dramatic or amazing a 'death' was, if Marvel wants their character back, then it's gonna be undone, no matter what the last custodian of that character thought when they were writing them a dramatic death.

As to the original questions, Jean's first death on the moon was amazing. And after the retcon, it wasn't even Jean who chose to sacrifice her life heroically out of love, it was just some Phoenix force doppleganger, and that makes the most amazing heroic noble thing 'Jean' ever did, something that she was sleeping in a pod under the bay for and had nothing to do with, and only learned about later.

That, IMO, cheapens not just the death, but also robs Jean of that amazing moment. "Yeah, there was this amazing you once, but she's dead, and now your back, I guess. Good luck making half the difference she made..."

None of the other X-Men deaths have felt as significant, although my opinion varies on whether or not they should be undone. Cypher's return through the intervention of Warlock and the techno-organic virus that he was already hinted before his death to have been infected with? Sure. John Proudstar returning? Not really seeing the point (although I suppose a great writer could make me eat crow there, because I never would have seen the point of resurrecting Bucky as the Winter Soldier before it happened!).

In most cases, such as the various times Madrox's 'prime' self has been irrefutably killed, only to show up months or years later and say, 'Yeah, that was a dupe,' that's just a case of a superior writer finding something to do with a character that was used as event-fodder to play up the deadly importance of some threat-of-the-minute that we barely heard of before the event, and will never care about six months later. (Holocaust killing Rusty Collins being a fine example of that. Rusty died to shock us with how badass Holocaust was. Now? Crickets. He's somewhere below frikkin' Mesmero on the list of notable X-foes. The original Hellions being killed to pump up the badassery of Trevor Fitzroy is another fine example. Trevor Fitzroy. Slightly more notable as an X-villain than generic Hand ninja #8. And so I wouldn't mind, say, Tarot, or Catseye, being resurrected, because I care not at all if Trever effing Fitzroy's signature accomplishment is undone.)