View Poll Results: Which of DC's Black Characters Has the Most Potential to Achieve Trinity Status?

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  • Green Lantern (John Stewart)

    37 28.24%
  • Vixen (Mari McCabe)

    17 12.98%
  • Cyborg (Victor Stone)

    11 8.40%
  • Black Lightning/Vulcan (Jefferson Pierce)

    22 16.79%
  • Static (Virgil Hawkins)

    5 3.82%
  • Naomi (Naomi McDuffie)

    7 5.34%
  • Mr. Terrific (Michael Holt)

    5 3.82%
  • Steel (John Henry Irons)

    2 1.53%
  • Bumblebee (Karen Beecher)

    0 0%
  • Icon (Augustus Freeman IV)

    0 0%
  • Rocket (Raquel Ervin)

    0 0%
  • Amazing-Man (Any Version)

    1 0.76%
  • Aqualad (Kaldur'ahm/Jackson Hyde)

    1 0.76%
  • Other (Specify Below)

    3 2.29%
  • None

    20 15.27%
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  1. #181
    Incredible Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    She doesn't have to be around 50 years, no, but if we're talking top-end, A++ levels, she needs a whole lot of everything; rogues, setting, love interest (she can maybe skip this part but it does seem important in the long-term), blah blah blah. Building her up as an IP, and doing it right, is going to take time. And until she's got all the same toys as the other A++ characters, she's not going to equal them.
    You're implying these other black characters are somehow better off in these regards and they're not. At least we actually know there are more plans for Naomi stories, while Vixen and John Stewart more or less don't have anything going on for them. Vixen, John Stewart, and so on may have been around a long time, but that's not what matters. What's important is what they've done in the time they've been around. And they haven't done a whole lot for as long as they've existed. Especially Vixen. What's more is that no one is likely to do anything for them because they have very little incentive to. You couldn't even pay little old me enough to spend my time toiling building up John Stewart or Vixen, and giving them my best ideas. I'd use that effort on my own stuff. A lot of comics creators feel similarly, which is why they don't often create a whole lot for characters like these. On the other hand, I'm pretty confident Bendis will give his best efforts building Naomi up in the stories to come.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shockingjustice View Post
    Yeah but people at least know the name Black Canary. She's in arrow, was in injustices, and had quite a bit of a role in JLU. She was also in Young Justice, so I'm sure casual fans know her a lot. When people mention B characters and who should be the next female member on the JL she well get mentioned more often than Mari.
    Vixen is also in the Arrowverse, and got even her own animated short, she was Injustice 2 and her role in JLU was iirc similar in size to Black Canaries.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Vixen is also in the Arrowverse, and got even her own animated short, she was Injustice 2 and her role in JLU was iirc similar in size to Black Canaries.
    She was a costume for Cheetah in Injustice, not a character with her own moveset. She did have an animated series, but that was erased because of her grandmother.

  4. #184
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoneySpider View Post
    Well, according to solicits, Superman is going to be her mentor, so that's even more of a connection.
    Depending on how that plays out, I suppose it could end up with Naomi looking like an adjunct to Clark's franchise. I mean, if all we get is a couple issues of Clark showing Naomi how to control her powers that's not enough to put her under the "S" umbrella, I think. But if it's more substantial than that, it could end up with her looking like an actual part of the Super-verse. We'll see, I guess. Right now, I imagine this is going to play out sort of like how the old Superman-Robin stories did. Dick Grayson was never a Super-character but he did spend a lot of time with Clark and picked up a lot of stuff from him. But it was never enough for Dick to be a part of Clark's mythos, it was just a good inter-franchise relationship. I'm hoping that's all this is; Naomi should stand on her own two feet. If she develops a good relationship with Superman that's awesome, but I don't need her being a part of that world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    You're implying these other black characters are somehow better off in these regards and they're not.
    I think that's a tad hyperbolic. Yeah, Vixen has been criminally under-developed and has next to nothing going for her as a solo IP, with barely a handful of villains she can claim as her own, etc. And John Stewart, he doesn't have much going for him either because he's a Lantern and plays in that sandbox where all the toys belonged to Hal first. John has the Mosaic stuff that belongs to him, and that's largely it. But Cyborg, Black Lightning, Steel, etc? They've all got larger rogues galleries (even if most fans couldn't name more than a few foes for each hero, they've all got more than Naomi's one), they've got settings that are unique to them, love interests, etc. And Holt has a pretty big mythos built up around him now, between all the JSA and Terrifics and Metal stuff.

    Naomi doesn't have *that* far to go to catch up in terms of development, not compared to a lot of other characters, but saying her world has been developed as much as the other guys in just six issues? Come on now.

    You're totally right that with Naomi we can trust that she'll get attention and effort, because she's Bendis' baby, while the other heroes lack that kind of patronage. But Naomi's had one mini, she doesn't have as much in her mythology as the other guys. I mean, even with Vixen, if you take the animated show's thing with the different totems, even Mari has more villains than Naomi does right now.
    Last edited by Ascended; 10-16-2019 at 07:30 AM.
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  6. #186
    Fantastic Member mikelmcknight72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    Black Lightning
    John Stewart
    Vixen
    I agree wholeheartedly. They have either different abilities or different personalities than any of the Big 7, and they are presently the highest profile. Generally, everyone listed on the poll are good characters or great characters. Personally, Id go with either Mari or Jefferson over John due to current appearances other media.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    She doesn't have to be around 50 years, no, but if we're talking top-end, A++ levels, she needs a whole lot of everything; rogues, setting, love interest (she can maybe skip this part but it does seem important in the long-term), blah blah blah. Building her up as an IP, and doing it right, is going to take time. And until she's got all the same toys as the other A++ characters, she's not going to equal them.
    In order to get that you need usage. Beyond background shots, background roles and so on.

    Take Falcon-you saw him in Captain America, Avengers, his own mini and the SORELY missed books like Marvel Two in One, Marvel Comics Present and books that showcased many. Not to mention in Cap America & Avengers-we saw SOLO Falcon stories. Falcon had one issue of Avengers to himself. That builds you up and it went along with the limited merchandise we saw with him.

    Here-we don't see that. Let do a quick comparison.

    John Stewart-it took 14 years for him to do anything after he first appeared.

    Static in 7 years had his own book and tv show.
    Miles Morales in 7 years (and the start of Cyborg's "push") is on his 4th solo run, 5 minis, 3 team books and an Oscar.
    Black Panther since 1998-has only gone 5 years without a solo.
    Luke Cage...there was a plan for him after PM & Ironfist ended but Shooter got fired. He's been more active in the 2000s.


    But I agree about the rest. If Bendis and DC can keep on keeping on, and really give her a solid, consistent push (instead of getting bored and moving on) she could become a serious, big-time player. Five to ten years, we might be talking about the old days when Superman or Flash or Lantern got to save the day in JLA all the time instead of Naomi.
    That story does not happen unless EDITORS allow it.
    Riddle me this-name me the black heroes in an event or crossover that saved the day or had a MAJOR hand in it?

    Chuck Dixon's Strike was the first one at Eclipse Comics.
    Static in Superman/Milestone crossover.

    Up for debate-I am not sure because I have not read them in their entirety.
    Miles Morales in Ultimate End and he was a player in Civil War
    Black Panther helping in Secret Wars 3
    Falcon in Secret Empire
    Morrsion's Multiplicity.
    Moon Girl in X-Men loves Inhumans

    Hard to sell ANYONE saving the day in books to FUTURE writers if they don't see it NOW. That falls on editorial letting that happen.
    I mean is it hard to accept a team of nothing but black heroes could NOT protect the Earth of Darksied?

    Look at Vixen-if she can tap into ANY creature on Earth-who can stop her?
    If Cyborg is a walking computer and Internet-who can stop him?
    Static-if he was a mutant-he would be an omega one. If you took all his versions.
    Jason Rusch cold WIPE OUT all of Gotham without trying. We have seen how powerful Ronnie is.

  8. #188
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    In order to get that you need usage. Beyond background shots, background roles and so on.

    That story does not happen unless EDITORS allow it.
    I know! That's what I'm saying; they need to get the development. Naomi especially has six issues and a guest appearance and that's it (plus however many issues of Young Justice she's in) until season 2 hits next year. She needs a lot more to have a fully developed mythos that can stand toe-to-toe with the big guns. I mean, hell we don't even know what her powers are or what they can do. I adore Naomi, I seriously do, but we can't act like she's got what it takes to be in the big leagues until she's got more history under her belt.

    But I'll do you one better; not only do you need editors who allow stories with PoC characters, you need management who *encourage* it. We definitely don't have that, though I'll give Didio credit for his efforts like New Age (which was a fantastic effort). And, perhaps most of all, you need *fans* who will buy it. The industry, DC especially, needs to find a way to get their product beyond the LCS, because it's been proven that (typically) DC fans won't buy new characters. The most they'll usually do is give an old C-lister a shot, and even then it's a grudging thing with them. New characters (like Naomi) who actually break through? Those are damn rare. Too damn rare for anyone's good.

    New distribution channels seem to be the only way comics are going to get beyond the rut they're in. Fans like us, who not only read books with new/secondary/PoC characters but actively search them out, are rare in the established fanbase. Any effort DC makes is going to hit that wall unless they can find new avenues to sell their products. I mean, just as an example, my LCS runs a good shop. There's no bias there. But the owner hadn't even heard of Lion Forge until I mentioned it. He got the books because I suggested it, and they sold. But the fact that he hadn't even heard the name? Just shows that the good, new stuff gets buried under all the big names.
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  9. #189
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    I never accept the argument that dc readers dont read new / forgotten characters. Watchmen has been in print for 30 years, swampthing will have sold more than comparable issues of 99% of DCs books at the time with the number of reprints, harcovers, deluxe hardcovers, omnibuses etc. Same with Sandman. If you have a hot story people will show up - if your story is "look a black guy punching darkseid" no ones showing up for that.

  10. #190
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iron chimp View Post
    I never accept the argument that dc readers dont read new / forgotten characters. Watchmen has been in print for 30 years, swampthing will have sold more than comparable issues of 99% of DCs books at the time with the number of reprints, harcovers, deluxe hardcovers, omnibuses etc. Same with Sandman. If you have a hot story people will show up - if your story is "look a black guy punching darkseid" no ones showing up for that.
    Oh, there's definitely the occasional exception, sure. But look at your examples, Watchmen and Swamp Thing, the seminal runs like that, are decades old and have been popular since that time. They're not new or unknown, these are the runs that all of us recommend to new readers. They were successful new characters (or C-listers) yeah, decades ago yes, but I'm talking about now, in the current market, which is very different than it was then. And it's not hard to see that new characters don't typically do well in the current market. Again, look at New Age; DC did everything right with that line and the books were (mostly) well done, and *at least* as good as most of DC's other titles. But the sales weren't there.

    Consider Ms. Marvel and Moon Girl. Both do well outside the direct market, and Ms. Marvel actually caught some attention in California during the "trump will deport all Muslims" fears and had her face on the side of buses, buildings, etc. That's more cultural awareness than most comic characters have but her direct market sales are still trash, despite her success in other formats. Moon Girl sells like, five copies a month in the dm, but does well in other formats.

    The direct market isn't good for new blood. That's about as objective a fact as you can get with this medium.
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  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Oh, there's definitely the occasional exception, sure. But look at your examples, Watchmen and Swamp Thing, the seminal runs like that, are decades old and have been popular since that time. They're not new or unknown, these are the runs that all of us recommend to new readers. They were successful new characters (or C-listers) yeah, decades ago yes, but I'm talking about now, in the current market, which is very different than it was then. And it's not hard to see that new characters don't typically do well in the current market. Again, look at New Age; DC did everything right with that line and the books were (mostly) well done, and *at least* as good as most of DC's other titles. But the sales weren't there.

    Consider Ms. Marvel and Moon Girl. Both do well outside the direct market, and Ms. Marvel actually caught some attention in California during the "trump will deport all Muslims" fears and had her face on the side of buses, buildings, etc. That's more cultural awareness than most comic characters have but her direct market sales are still trash, despite her success in other formats. Moon Girl sells like, five copies a month in the dm, but does well in other formats.

    The direct market isn't good for new blood. That's about as objective a fact as you can get with this medium.
    Image is nothing but new properties. Thats what it does.

    Dc did nothing right with new age - heres our hulk, ff, and spiderman headed up by talent we all know will be gone in 3 months.

    It was a nothing idea.

    Its not the readers fault DC is still flogging the corpse of watchmen, recycling marvel.ideas, and semi constant time shenanigans and hasnt had a mass market breakout book for decades. Thats their fault not the readers.

  12. #192
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iron chimp View Post
    Image is nothing but new properties. Thats what it does.

    Dc did nothing right with new age - heres our hulk, ff, and spiderman headed up by talent we all know will be gone in 3 months.

    It was a nothing idea.

    Its not the readers fault DC is still flogging the corpse of watchmen, recycling marvel.ideas, and semi constant time shenanigans and hasnt had a mass market breakout book for decades. Thats their fault not the readers.
    And why were those guys out in three months ? Because even before the first book came out, as soon as the initative was announced, readers of other DC properties pronounced it dead on arrival. They literally did that. It came out and they said "It'll never work, I won't bother putting money here because those new characters will be forgotten in a year. And I want JSA and LOSH anyway, i don't give a fuck about anything new;"

    That's what killed the lines. Artists knew what was the mood of the readership, and then they had the numbers of the direct market to make sure that jumping ships was betetr. If you were JRjr, why would yu bother staying on The Silencer when you can make Hit-Girl, which will draw a lot more people or at least have some form of prestige/freedom over New Age of Heroes ?

    Fans of classic Dc line-ups are killing the company. Not new property, not new fans. Those who sink new projects even before it can truly see the light of day are just as responsible as DC for its decline.

  13. #193

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    I would love for Vixen to get more of a spotlight. I just absolutely love her powers and think the potential is just really great.
    Last edited by Keyotheseasons; 10-18-2019 at 10:43 AM.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    And why were those guys out in three months ? Because even before the first book came out, as soon as the initative was announced, readers of other DC properties pronounced it dead on arrival. They literally did that. It came out and they said "It'll never work, I won't bother putting money here because those new characters will be forgotten in a year. And I want JSA and LOSH anyway, i don't give a fuck about anything new;"

    That's what killed the lines. Artists knew what was the mood of the readership, and then they had the numbers of the direct market to make sure that jumping ships was betetr. If you were JRjr, why would yu bother staying on The Silencer when you can make Hit-Girl, which will draw a lot more people or at least have some form of prestige/freedom over New Age of Heroes ?

    Fans of classic Dc line-ups are killing the company. Not new property, not new fans. Those who sink new projects even before it can truly see the light of day are just as responsible as DC for its decline.
    1. Artist lead books dont sell units - its not the 1990s. Credit for trying to showcase their artistic talent but ongoings was not the place for it because..
    2. Most of these artists had a history of not being to do a monthly book. It was obviously a bait and switch
    3. The concept was poor - heres marvel characters BUT at DC.. erm why dont i just read them at marvel
    4. And the books spun out of an event ...

    "Classic DC" readers supported grant morrison, alan moore, dave mckean, garth ennis, neil gaiman, frank miller.. hell even ted mckeever had books. Older DC readers were far more willing to buy the crazy shit than newer readers.

    The ideas are weak. Its that simple. They have no mass appeal because its just the same stuff on a loop

    If the idea is hey heres someone else punching darkseid BUT this time... and are you ready for this because its going to blow your mind... s/he's black. Erm yeah join all the other chumps punching darkseid in the 25c box.

  15. #195
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iron chimp View Post
    Image is nothing but new properties. Thats what it does.

    Dc did nothing right with new age - heres our hulk, ff, and spiderman headed up by talent we all know will be gone in 3 months.

    It was a nothing idea.

    Its not the readers fault DC is still flogging the corpse of watchmen, recycling marvel.ideas, and semi constant time shenanigans and hasnt had a mass market breakout book for decades. Thats their fault not the readers.
    You're completely avoiding what I was saying. Your examples (Watchmen, Swamp Thing, other popular books from decades ago when things were different) don't hold water man.

    And Image isn't DC; different audiences, different goals, expectations, and I wouldn't point to Image as a pinnacle of sales success either. They've got their winners of course (and I love a lot of their books) but this is apples and oranges, and the apples don't sell half as well in the first place.

    And if fans didn't keep buying it, publishers wouldn't be flogging the corpses of popular IP's that came out decades ago. Business is a two-way street; you can't meet a demand that doesn't exist, nor create a supply your consumers won't demand.

    As for New Age, I believe you're very much wrong. Yes, those were Marvel riffs. Your point? DC and Marvel steal from each other, and always have. Yes, we all knew the initiative was doomed to fail. Why do we know this? Because fans don't support new stuff 99.9% of the time. Fans were screaming and bitching about these books before they launched, "Oh, why are these big names making new characters when B'Wanna Beast isn't showing up anywhere! He's such a good character and everyone loves him!" But if this had been a new line with the same talent about the big names? Those books would've sold great, even though their quality would've been exactly the same. And it would've have mattered if the artists left after a few issues.
    Last edited by Ascended; 10-18-2019 at 05:25 PM.
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