Which of DC's Black Characters Has the Most Potential to Achieve Trinity Status?

[iron chimp]

Yeah, were kids choosing to dress up as the Thing instead of Spider-man? Did the Thing have enough popularity to carry a solo book like Wolverine?

Go ask old school Marvel heads on the board - they will tell you how popular the thing used to be.

[The Darknight Detective]

Yes claremonts x-men juggernaut swept all before it but people forget that until then The Thing was a top tier much loved character - the anchor that made Ff so popular and a Thing Hulk face off was always a huge draw.

Im.pretty sure he used to be a regular banner character in that postage stamp thing across all marvels books at one time and a regular winner of marvel polls on readers fav character.

A thing renaissance would make the world a better place.

I do remember him winning some polls back in the '70s. I know it's hard for the youngsters here to believe that, but it was so.

[Vampire Savior]

Eye roll every time it’s mentioned that Vic works best with teen titans. As if because he started on a team that he could never be more than that. Like he’s only fit for being a Bat-family’s right-hand man. A “glass ceiling” so to speak. Nonsense.

Wishfulfilment is the largest factor for many. The same way any black person would love to see someone who looks like them in a field/area that’s primarily kept them out, it’s the same with the Justice League. Vic was chosen at the time because the core league is built off of original characters. There’s not even a handful of black characters that fit that bill. Cyborg is chosen. Fine.

Now, build him up.

Sadly they put in the least they could do in JL. Someone comes along with an out of the box, forward thinking pitch to Advance The Concept. Make Cyborg something we would want to be. DC scrapped it in favor of more of the same. How much fun is it to follow a character that is always down? Always having to question his humanity? Is limited in story potential because of being trapped in a clunky metal body? No life outside the heroics?

People want to enjoy a book. A solo character that has no joy isn’t a book that anyone is going to support. No private life. No love interests. Could you blame anyone for not supporting such a bummer of a book?

Bring back the wishfulfilment. Make him look appealing.

I think it's undeniably true that Cyborg works best with Teen Titans, as he's had way more success with Teen Titans than without it.
What you're saying would be like removing Storm from the X-Men. You're undoubtedly going to get push back on that, because people like seeing Storm with the X-Men much more than they like seeing her on her own. Such is the fate of many team characters. Sure, there are hugely popular breakouts like Wolverine, but Cyborg sure as heck has never been one of them. Usually, when that happens, it happens organically. DC tried to force Cyborg to breakout and there was no demand for it, and no real interest on the part of the creators to explore it. So it flopped from all directions.

[skyvolt2000]

Yeah, were kids choosing to dress up as the Thing instead of Spider-man? Did the Thing have enough popularity to carry a solo book like Wolverine?

The Thing headlined his own book and a Marvel Two in One book.
Who else was doing that not named Peter Parker or Hawkeye at Marvel?

If we are going to belittle him for being a lead in a book not titled under his name-we should disqualify Brave & Bold, Showcase, Marvel Tales, Solo Avengers and every other book that had a lead not using that person's name.
And I guess Falcon would be a bigger name than Thing since his name was on the cover of Cap America from issue 134-225?.

Also kids can't dress up as somebody if there is no costume that they can buy instead of make from scratch.
Funny thing-a poll was done on who was dressing up as who for Halloween. 3 super heroes names came up.
1 was from DC and the other 2 were Marvel.
Batman was the SECOND choice. Spider Man was number 3 (however does that mean Miles or Peter-who both have costumes in stores). Guess who was number one.

BLACK PANTHER.
Lets say Miles is half of that Spider-Man vote.

8 years ago that would not have happened.

[skyvolt2000]

I think it's undeniably true that Cyborg works best with Teen Titans, as he's had way more success with Teen Titans than without it.
What you're saying would be like removing Storm from the X-Men. You're undoubtedly going to get push back on that, because people like seeing Storm with the X-Men much more than they like seeing her on her own. Such is the fate of many team characters. Sure, there are hugely popular breakouts like Wolverine, but Cyborg sure as heck has never been one of them.

Or with Black Panther.

Sad thing is-she's being written better in HIS book than her own franchise.

[Ilan Preskovsky]

It also doesn't help that the big Cyborg push felt so forced. Here's a character that never had any success outside of the Teen Titans - sorry, he didn't - and it was clear that the only reason he was elevated to Big 7 status was because of an obvious bit of tokenism. I'm sorry, I don't see how black people don't see this as pretty pathetic pandering and it did no good for the character whatsoever as he was effectively made the odd-man-out of the JLA's founders - which in turn is bad for "diversity" because suddenly the black guy was the one that didn't fit; was the one that was chosen purely because of the colour of his skin.

I'm all for representing different cultures, races, belief systems, religions, genders, etc. in all forms of art but there are ways to do it that are organic. earned and sympathetic and then there are ways to do it that are none of these things. Cyborg's random insertion into DC's Big 7 - at the cost of a character who may or may not be literally black but could be used as a very effective metaphor for the black experience in America - was undoubtedly the latter. There have been a number of black Justice League members in the past, including a number of those listed here, and I would have no real issue with Cyborg being introduced into the team in the way that everyone from Zatanna to Elongated Man to Blue Beetle to Vixen was in the past (aside for, again, finding him a bit dull, personally, and thinking he works best with the Titans) but shoe-horning him into the Big 7 PURELY because of the colour of his skin was... ill-judged, let's say.

[Sutekh]

I remember reading about an alternate universe where the Wolfman/Perez Teen Titans lineup didn't include Robin, Kid Flash, Changeling 'and a couple of bimbos nobody has ever heard of' (as it was joked at the time, about both that lineup and Batman and the Outsiders lineup, both of which had some established male heroes and brand-new creations for the women), but instead was all 'old' Teen Titans, with Lilith Clay replacing Raven (and retroactively gaining her daughter of a demon backstory) and Bumblebee replacing Starfire (but without the alien stuff). That would have been an interesting team to see, and potentially given Bumblebee a big push.

(On the other hand, this pitch used Golden Eagle instead of Cyborg, so it'd be a wash in the case of minority representation.)

[chief12d]

It also doesn't help that the big Cyborg push felt so forced. Here's a character that never had any success outside of the Teen Titans - sorry, he didn't - and it was clear that the only reason he was elevated to Big 7 status was because of an obvious bit of tokenism. I'm sorry, I don't see how black people don't see this as pretty pathetic pandering and it did no good for the character whatsoever as he was effectively made the odd-man-out of the JLA's founders - which in turn is bad for "diversity" because suddenly the black guy was the one that didn't fit; was the one that was chosen purely because of the colour of his skin.

I'm all for representing different cultures, races, belief systems, religions, genders, etc. in all forms of art but there are ways to do it that are organic. earned and sympathetic and then there are ways to do it that are none of these things. Cyborg's random insertion into DC's Big 7 - at the cost of a character who may or may not be literally black but could be used as a very effective metaphor for the black experience in America - was undoubtedly the latter. There have been a number of black Justice League members in the past, including a number of those listed here, and I would have no real issue with Cyborg being introduced into the team in the way that everyone from Zatanna to Elongated Man to Blue Beetle to Vixen was in the past (aside for, again, finding him a bit dull, personally, and thinking he works best with the Titans) but shoe-horning him into the Big 7 PURELY because of the colour of his skin was... ill-judged, let's say.

So black people should’ve been offended by Cyborg but be satisfied with Martian Manhunter as a black stand-in? I agree the former was a terrible choice for the League but as much as I love MM he will never be a black character or resonate the way an actual black character would. If DC pushed MM as their premier character of color while Vixen and BL sat at the sidelines DC would rightfully get backlash from black readers (myself included) asking why a shape shifting alien is getting more attention than actual black heroes.

That’s not to say MM can’t take the form of a black man, but authenticity and visibility matter. I’d much rather BL/Vixen join the Justice League as new members than J’onn be expected to represent DC’s black heroes just because of misplaced need to have a black founder. We all know why there weren’t black characters when the League was first published. It is what it is and DC would benefit from adjusting the present roster than trying to change its past.

[Ilan Preskovsky]

So black people should’ve been offended by Cyborg but be satisfied with Martian Manhunter as a black stand-in? I agree the former was a terrible choice for the League but as much as I love MM he will never be a black character or resonate the way an actual black character would. If DC pushed MM as their premier character of color while Vixen and BL sat at the sidelines DC would rightfully get backlash from black readers (myself included) asking why a shape shifting alien is getting more attention than actual black heroes.

That’s not to say MM can’t take the form of a black man, but authenticity and visibility matter. I’d much rather BL/Vixen join the Justice League as new members than J’onn be expected to represent DC’s black heroes just because of misplaced need to have a black founder. We all know why there weren’t black characters when the League was first published. It is what it is and DC would benefit from adjusting the present roster than trying to change its past.

OK, I was about to write a whole rebuttal but I think we're misunderstanding one another. I actually agree entirely. I'm not saying that MM should be the only black representation at DC but that the Big 7 being what they are, if you absolutely insist on having one of the founders of the JLA being black then MM is the best and most obvious choice. I was actually saying that this isn't the best way to give DC's black characters a push - sorry if that wasn't clear. Adding Vixen or Steel or whoever to the JL roster totally is, as is creating new characters like Naomi.


My big problem is not with your post, but with the sort of crowbarred representation that DC has pushed a lot over the past decade. I'm curious what you think as a black reader but is it just me or is trying to crowbar Cyborg as a founder of the League not just incredibly condescending because what it ultimately says is that black people can't relate to the Big 7 because none of them happen to share the same skin tone as them? The JLA was, as you say, created by white men (though I do find it odd that the original creators' whiteness is always mentioned but never the fact that they were by and large minorities themselves; usually Jewish but also Irish and Italian Catholics who flocked to comics because mainstream protestant American culture kept them from "respectable" jobs) working at a time when non-white representation wasn't exactly high on anyone's list so, unsurprisingly, DC's most iconic characters are white-skinned. I'm sure most black readers do understand this and that they don't just relate to these white characters but they might even be among their absolute favourites. Hell, as a Modern Orthodox South African Jew, I'm "represented" by precisely ZERO characters in American superhero comics or, really, anywhere else in fiction (I mean, duh), but I can't say I particularly care because, hey, ya know what, I am perfectly able to sympathize with characters that may be of different backgrounds, religions, ethnicity, sexual orientation or gender to me. That's kinda the beauty of fiction.

Now, all that said, it is undoubtedly true that there is plenty of merit, both sociological and artistic, in creating stories that are more representative of the world in which we live (or, at least, Americans live) and that having superheroes, in particular, that look like you or share a common heritage with you can be genuinely inspiring. I'm absolutely not disputing that. Quite the opposite. There are, however, good ways and bad ways to go about this and inserting Cyborg into the Big 7 or creating a black Wally West, is absolutely the wrong way to go about it. The intention tends to be good but the results are almost always hackneyed, condescending and desperate. Creating new or even legacy characters who are from minority or just under-represented cultures and communities is a brilliant idea - and Bendis alone has proven how successful these characters can be - and it's certainly a fine idea to try and bring characters like Vixen, Steel or Mr. Terrific to the forefront by giving them solo books and organically bringing them into JLA or the Titans - which, of course, has been done plenty over the past few decades to varying degrees of success.

[Vampire Savior]

It also doesn't help that the big Cyborg push felt so forced. Here's a character that never had any success outside of the Teen Titans - sorry, he didn't - and it was clear that the only reason he was elevated to Big 7 status was because of an obvious bit of tokenism. I'm sorry, I don't see how black people don't see this as pretty pathetic pandering and it did no good for the character whatsoever as he was effectively made the odd-man-out of the JLA's founders - which in turn is bad for "diversity" because suddenly the black guy was the one that didn't fit; was the one that was chosen purely because of the colour of his skin.

I'm all for representing different cultures, races, belief systems, religions, genders, etc. in all forms of art but there are ways to do it that are organic. earned and sympathetic and then there are ways to do it that are none of these things. Cyborg's random insertion into DC's Big 7 - at the cost of a character who may or may not be literally black but could be used as a very effective metaphor for the black experience in America - was undoubtedly the latter. There have been a number of black Justice League members in the past, including a number of those listed here, and I would have no real issue with Cyborg being introduced into the team in the way that everyone from Zatanna to Elongated Man to Blue Beetle to Vixen was in the past (aside for, again, finding him a bit dull, personally, and thinking he works best with the Titans) but shoe-horning him into the Big 7 PURELY because of the colour of his skin was... ill-judged, let's say.

It's because some black fans are so desperate for a major DC character (and it apparently MUST be a DC character, because they feel a since of pride standing him next to characters like Superman [or usually behind Superman somewhere]) that they feel represents them that they take whatever lazy, half baked garbage DC throws their way. To this day, DC still throws garbage at them (like a race bent Wally West), and they still take it. Of course, I think this is the wrong way of thinking, and it doesn't lead to anything good or productive from either parties, which is a big reason I've been against Cyborg's push from day one. On the part of the black fan, they're willing to accept exceptionally low standards, shabby representation, and bad/and or underdeveloped characters, and this sends the message to DC that it's fine to keep spewing out copies, sidekicks, freaks, and underdeveloped black characters rather than doing the impossible and sitting especially creative people with strong visions in chairs for hours and hours and doing the old fashioned legwork it takes to build truly worthwhile characters, which is really the ONLY thing that will solve problems like the one this thread exposes.

I realized the only thing to do is build a black hero from the ground up that's satisfactory, because with the way DC works, I don't think that company ill do that. And none of their black characters are satisfactory to me.

When I voted, somehow I missed the "None" option, but had I seen it, I would have chosen that.

[Ilan Preskovsky]

It's because some black fans are so desperate for a major DC character (and it apparently MUST be a DC character, because they feel a since of pride standing him next to characters like Superman [or usually behind Superman somewhere]) that they feel represents them that they take whatever lazy, half baked garbage DC throws their way. To this day, DC still throws garbage at them (like a race bent Wally West), and they still take it. Of course, I think this is the wrong way of thinking, and it doesn't lead to anything good or productive from either parties, which is a big reason I've been against Cyborg's push from day one. On the part of the black fan, they're willing to accept exceptionally low standards, shabby representation, and bad/and or underdeveloped characters, and this sends the message to DC that it's fine to keep spewing out copies, sidekicks, freaks, and underdeveloped black characters rather than doing the impossible and sitting especially creative people with strong visions in chairs for hours and hours and doing the old fashioned legwork it takes to build truly worthwhile characters, which is really the ONLY thing that will solve problems like the one this thread exposes.

I realized the only thing to do is build a black hero from the ground up that's satisfactory, because with the way DC works, I don't think that company ill do that. And none of their black characters are satisfactory to me.

When I voted, somehow I missed the "None" option, but had I seen it, I would have chosen that.

Except I very much doubt that black readers do respond the way you're describing. That's precisely the point. I can't imagine that black readers are any more impressed by race-bent Wally West or the whole Cyborg kerfuffle than white readers are.

And I do like a number of DC's black characters, myself, but if you want entirely new ones, it's fortunate that DC hired the guy who created Miles Morales and the woman who created Ms Marvel has also started appearing more frequently at DC too.

[JTHM]

Obvious answer by both legacy and popularity would be John Stewart. For some, he's still THE Green Lantern.

Naomi also has potential to be honest. She literally lifted the sales of Action Comics by being the guest star lol.

[Vampire Savior]

Except I very much doubt that black readers do respond the way you're describing. That's precisely the point. I can't imagine that black readers are any more impressed by race-bent Wally West or the whole Cyborg kerfuffle than white readers are.

I've seen it. I'm pretty sure those characters have appreciation threads. Just go in there.

[SecretWarrior]

OK, I was about to write a whole rebuttal but I think we're misunderstanding one another. I actually agree entirely. I'm not saying that MM should be the only black representation at DC but that the Big 7 being what they are, if you absolutely insist on having one of the founders of the JLA being black then MM is the best and most obvious choice. I was actually saying that this isn't the best way to give DC's black characters a push - sorry if that wasn't clear. Adding Vixen or Steel or whoever to the JL roster totally is, as is creating new characters like Naomi.


My big problem is not with your post, but with the sort of crowbarred representation that DC has pushed a lot over the past decade. I'm curious what you think as a black reader but is it just me or is trying to crowbar Cyborg as a founder of the League not just incredibly condescending because what it ultimately says is that black people can't relate to the Big 7 because none of them happen to share the same skin tone as them? The JLA was, as you say, created by white men (though I do find it odd that the original creators' whiteness is always mentioned but never the fact that they were by and large minorities themselves; usually Jewish but also Irish and Italian Catholics who flocked to comics because mainstream protestant American culture kept them from "respectable" jobs) working at a time when non-white representation wasn't exactly high on anyone's list so, unsurprisingly, DC's most iconic characters are white-skinned. I'm sure most black readers do understand this and that they don't just relate to these white characters but they might even be among their absolute favourites. Hell, as a Modern Orthodox South African Jew, I'm "represented" by precisely ZERO characters in American superhero comics or, really, anywhere else in fiction (I mean, duh), but I can't say I particularly care because, hey, ya know what, I am perfectly able to sympathize with characters that may be of different backgrounds, religions, ethnicity, sexual orientation or gender to me. That's kinda the beauty of fiction.

Now, all that said, it is undoubtedly true that there is plenty of merit, both sociological and artistic, in creating stories that are more representative of the world in which we live (or, at least, Americans live) and that having superheroes, in particular, that look like you or share a common heritage with you can be genuinely inspiring. I'm absolutely not disputing that. Quite the opposite. There are, however, good ways and bad ways to go about this and inserting Cyborg into the Big 7 or creating a black Wally West, is absolutely the wrong way to go about it. The intention tends to be good but the results are almost always hackneyed, condescending and desperate. Creating new or even legacy characters who are from minority or just under-represented cultures and communities is a brilliant idea - and Bendis alone has proven how successful these characters can be - and it's certainly a fine idea to try and bring characters like Vixen, Steel or Mr. Terrific to the forefront by giving them solo books and organically bringing them into JLA or the Titans - which, of course, has been done plenty over the past few decades to varying degrees of success.

I not only want a black member of the League but a black founding member since Trinity or Founding Member designations elevate a character's status socially and in terms of how seriously they're taken by characters and readers. The push for a black character Cyborg wasn't the problem-- Choosing to make Cyborg that character was the problem. It bothers me more that people are okay with so many retcons unless it comes to putting black characters on the same level as white ones.

Cyborg's push was also half-hearted since he didn't get a solo at the start of the New52 like everyone else or even notable any development at all.

If I were to make a founding roster today, I would keep the original icons but replace Hal with John and J'onn with M'Gann since one female founder is also dumb. Jai West stepping in as founding Flash wouldn't be off the mark to me either since it presents the opportunity to also give readers a funny Flash again. Wonder Woman could be written as bi.

Diverse roster, classic feel. You can add more diversity in the expanded roster.

[The Darknight Detective]

I not only want a black member of the League but a black founding member since Trinity or Founding Member designations elevate a character's status socially and in terms of how seriously they're taken by characters and readers. The push for a black character Cyborg wasn't the problem-- Choosing to make Cyborg that character was the problem. It bothers me more that people are okay with so many retcons unless it comes to putting black characters on the same level as white ones.

Cyborg was picked because he was the most well known at that time. Fifteen years ago, it would have been either John Stewart or Static. Back in the '80s, it would have been Cyborg again. 40-something years ago, it would have been Black Lightning.

Point is, whoever has the most visibility gets to go to the top of the pecking order. Since the founding members of the Justice League are not going to be lily white anymore, it isn't an unreasonable way to go for choosing a black member.