Which of DC's Black Characters Has the Most Potential to Achieve Trinity Status?

[SecretWarrior]

Cyborg was picked because he was the most well known at that time. Fifteen years ago, it would have been either John Stewart or Static. Back in the '80s, it would have been Cyborg again. 40-something years ago, it would have been Black Lightning.

Point is, whoever has the most visibility gets to go to the top of the pecking order. Since the founding members of the Justice League are not going to be lily white anymore, it isn't an unreasonable way to go for choosing.

No, John was still very well known in 2011 since the Green Lantern film came out that year and people were confused as to why GL wasn't black. DC chose to back Hal so of course they'd put him on their biggest team in the New52, but they knew they couldn't have the silver age team since people became accustomed to a diverse league due to the cartoon. Also, even though millions knew John as GL, DC wanted a white lead for their franchise because they probably thought that was the only way a movie based on the property would sell. They tested the idea of bringing GL and WW to the big screen through home market sales of First Flight and WW 2009. They never considered John, their most popular black character, a viable option due to his race. Glad BP s**t in their tea. Not only proved them wrong but also further displayed how token Cyborg was. Marvel's founding Avengers team bothered some, which is why Falcon was included in the cartoon version, and why they're pushing these characters as their varsity team now:



In terms of representation, this reminds me of Wizard Magazine's Ultimate Justice League:



Clearly influenced by the DCAU, and it appears it later influenced Amazons Attack, New52 Superman, and Batman Begins.

[Vampire Savior]

Cyborg was picked because he was the most well known at that time. Fifteen years ago, it would have been either John Stewart or Static. Back in the '80s, it would have been Cyborg again. 40-something years ago, it would have been Black Lightning.

Point is, whoever has the most visibility gets to go to the top of the pecking order. Since the founding members of the Justice League are not going to be lily white anymore, it isn't an unreasonable way to go for choosing a black member.

Disagree.
Cyborg was picked because he was okay with the people doing the picking. He didn't disrupt any other character they would rather have there (apparently, they didn't care all that much about Martian Manhunter being there). Any other reason is just rationalizing their preferences. But you could pretty much rationalize any decision. You could rationalize putting John Stewart in Hal Jordan's place, for instance.

[SecretWarrior]

Wizard Magazine #136

January 2003

*****This article came out beforeBatman Begins (2005), Iron Man (2008), and even the original Teen Titans cartoon (July 2003). X2: X-Men United (April/May 2003) and Spider-Man 2 (2004) hadn't come out yet either. It came out afterUltimate Spider-Man (2000), Ultimate X-Men (2001), the Ultimates (2002), the original Justice League cartoon (2001), and Smallville (2001).*****

[SecretWarrior]

[SecretWarrior]

[Johnny]

No, John was still very well known in 2011 since the Green Lantern film came out that year and people were confused as to why GL wasn't black. DC chose to back Hal so of course they'd put him on their biggest team in the New52, but they knew they couldn't have the silver age team since people became accustomed to a diverse league due to the cartoon. Also, even though millions knew John as GL, DC wanted a white lead for their franchise because they probably thought that was the only way a movie based on the property would sell. They tested the idea of bringing GL and WW to the big screen through home market sales of First Flight and WW 2009. They never considered John, their most popular black character, a viable option due to his race. Glad BP s**t in their tea. Not only proved them wrong but also further displayed how token Cyborg was.

If by "people" you mean JLU fans regurgitating cringeworthy sentiments on twitter, you would have a point. Twitter isn't real life. I think people need to stop acting like some non-controversy on social media instigated by individuals with too much time on their hands indicated that everyone who didn't read comics had no clue that Green Lantern was a mantle and not a single character just because of one cartoon show from 20 years ago. I was not reading DC comics when I was watching the DCAU and I knew about Hal Jordan and Barry Allen. Super Friends was just as influential as the DCAU and Hal was a part of that which I knew of from watching reruns at the time. I knew about Barry from the 1990 TV show and I was aware that The Flash I watching in JLU was a different character as well. BP was successful because it was both a good movie and the 18th entry in the most successful franchise in Hollywood history. Green Lantern did not succeed because it sucked and WB botched everything during its production cycle, not because the main character did not look like the way some people, who tried to pretend to be speaking on behalf of everyone else, thought he was "supposed" to look like.

[Vordan]

Anecdotal evidence but the people I roomed with in college asked me as the “comic guy” why GL was white in the movie and not black like the cartoon. They had no clue who Hal was. It’s only relatively recently post-Johns run and with Hal in the Injustice games that people have started to see Hal as “the” GL. Nowadays it’s the Stewart fans who tend to be older while the younger fanbase knows Hal.

[Ilan Preskovsky]

I not only want a black member of the League but a black founding member since Trinity or Founding Member designations elevate a character's status socially and in terms of how seriously they're taken by characters and readers. The push for a black character Cyborg wasn't the problem-- Choosing to make Cyborg that character was the problem. It bothers me more that people are okay with so many retcons unless it comes to putting black characters on the same level as white ones.

Cyborg's push was also half-hearted since he didn't get a solo at the start of the New52 like everyone else or even notable any development at all.

If I were to make a founding roster today, I would keep the original icons but replace Hal with John and J'onn with M'Gann since one female founder is also dumb. Jai West stepping in as founding Flash wouldn't be off the mark to me either since it presents the opportunity to also give readers a funny Flash again. Wonder Woman could be written as bi.

Diverse roster, classic feel. You can add more diversity in the expanded roster.

Well, I stand corrected. So, you want a black member of the founding 7 regardless of how well it's done? And it will never be done well, by the way, because NONE of these characters were one of the Big 7and their inclusion will only stink of tokenism.

And, honestly, where does it stop? You have to have one of the seven be black? What about one of them being gay, or Asian, or Muslim, or Jewish, or Transgender? It's just such contrived nonsense. Build up non-white, non-cis, non-male, non-Christian as much as you want but you do it by tokenism or quotas people will rebel against them as it's both insulting and ham-fisted to pretty much everyone. Worse, it continues the increasingly worrying trend of dehumanizing people by making them nothing more than whatever narrow group they identify as or are identified with.

[Vordan]

Well, I stand corrected. So, you want a black member of the founding 7 regardless of how well it's done? And it will never be done well, by the way, because NONE of these characters were one of the Big 7and their inclusion will only stink of tokenism.

And, honestly, where does it stop? You have to have one of the seven be black? What about one of them being gay, or Asian, or Muslim, or Jewish, or Transgender? It's just such contrived nonsense. Build up non-white, non-cis, non-male, non-Christian as much as you want but you do it by tokenism or quotas people will rebel against them as it's both insulting and ham-fisted to pretty much everyone. Worse, it continues the increasingly worrying trend of dehumanizing people by making them nothing more than whatever narrow group they identify as or are identified with.

Doesn’t sound bad to me. Why not? The DCAU did just fine with Stewart as GL and with Hawkgirl replacing Aquaman. Maoma playing Aquaman hasn’t hurt the character any. Seems like having the League reflect real world demographics would only help them out.

[SecretWarrior]

Well, I stand corrected. So, you want a black member of the founding 7 regardless of how well it's done? And it will never be done well, by the way, because NONE of these characters were one of the Big 7and their inclusion will only stink of tokenism.

And, honestly, where does it stop? You have to have one of the seven be black? What about one of them being gay, or Asian, or Muslim, or Jewish, or Transgender? It's just such contrived nonsense. Build up non-white, non-cis, non-male, non-Christian as much as you want but you do it by tokenism or quotas people will rebel against them as it's both insulting and ham-fisted to pretty much everyone. Worse, it continues the increasingly worrying trend of dehumanizing people by making them nothing more than whatever narrow group they identify as or are identified with.

I'm more concerned with the trend of limiting non-white characters to secondary statuses and keeping them there. I think that's pretty dehumanizing.

[SecretWarrior]

If by "people" you mean JLU fans regurgitating cringeworthy sentiments on twitter, you would have a point. Twitter isn't real life. I think people need to stop acting like some non-controversy on social media instigated by individuals with too much time on their hands indicated that everyone who didn't read comics had no clue that Green Lantern was a mantle and not a single character just because of one cartoon show from 20 years ago. I was not reading DC comics when I was watching the DCAU and I knew about Hal Jordan and Barry Allen. Super Friends was just as influential as the DCAU and Hal was a part of that which I knew of from watching reruns at the time. I knew about Barry from the 1990 TV show and I was aware that The Flash I watching in JLU was a different character as well. BP was successful because it was both a good movie and the 18th entry in the most successful franchise in Hollywood history. Green Lantern did not succeed because it sucked and WB botched everything during its production cycle, not because the main character did not look like the way some people, who tried to pretend to be speaking on behalf of everyone else, thought he was "supposed" to look like.

The DCAU had a bigger influence than anything you listed because of all of the merchandise and reruns. Most people still have no clue about what you've mentioned. Vordan's comments on Injustice ring more true than any of this. Actors are still requesting to play John Stewart in a lead role. That's pretty pervasive in the public consciousness. Also, it was much bigger than just twitter, but no one's going to stop you from spinning it however you like.

[j9ac9k]

I'm more concerned with the trend of limiting non-white characters to secondary statuses and keeping them there. I think that's pretty dehumanizing.

How is that a "trend?" I thought that was the status quo.

[SecretWarrior]

How is that a "trend?" I thought that was the status quo.

Is that any better? Either way, it's ongoing.

[Ilan Preskovsky]

I'm more concerned with the trend of limiting non-white characters to secondary statuses and keeping them there. I think that's pretty dehumanizing.

Except they are of secondary status. They're not the Trinity. They're not the other four of the Big 7. They're not even B+ listers like Green Arrow or Zatanna. It's not because they're black, it's because they just don't have the cache that these characters have. Most of DC's heroes and villains don't. Black superheroes have gotten ongoing series, major roles in DC teams and plenty of minis but they've never gained the traction of Superman or the Flash because, well, of course they haven't. John Stewart can, arguably, but that's only because he's Green Lantern.

And, what, you think that shoving Cyborg into the Big 7 made him one of DC's Big 7? All it did was highlight just how much he isn't.

For all that DC can do with diversity and pushing certain characters, it's ultimately the general fandom who will decide on a character's popularity and whether they can hold a book of their own. DC may have pushed Cyborg as an "a lister" to almost comical levels but, ultimately, the fans decided that he wasn't and his solo book was cancelled time and time again and despite appearing everywhere he made very little impact.

[Johnny]

The DCAU had a bigger influence than anything you listed because of all of the merchandise and reruns. Most people still have no clue about what you've mentioned. Vordan's comments on Injustice ring more true than any of this. Actors are still requesting to play John Stewart in a lead role. That's pretty pervasive in the public consciousness. Also, it was much bigger than just twitter, but no one's going to stop you from spinning it however you like.

Super Friends was the entire reason Aquaman was seen as a joke for the better part of the last 5 decades. The show had huge influence, both good and bad, similar to the 60s Batman show. And Hal Jordan was part of Super Friends, which means that lots of people were exposed to the character, both at the time, and through reruns like I was. Unless you're supposed to be some global spokesperson, I'm not certain who these "most people" you're referring to are supposed to be. Not sure what actors, making fools out of themselves by begging for cbm roles on social media, have to do with anything I said since I never claimed that John Stewart was not a well-known character, I called out an overexaggerated claim regurgitated by a portion of a cartoon's fanbase as if they were pretending to be speaking on behalf of every human being who was not reading DC comics. I'm hardly spinning it, that faux controversy never made it past social media, I don't recall seeing main stream media headlines asking why Green Lantern wasn't black. You're doing the same thing the aforementioned fanbase was trying to do at the time and it looks just as bad today as it did in 2011. Apparently some things never change.