Which of DC's Black Characters Has the Most Potential to Achieve Trinity Status?

[skyvolt2000]

Well, I stand corrected.
And, honestly, where does it stop? You have to have one of the seven be black? What about one of them being gay, or Asian, or Muslim, or Jewish, or Transgender? It's just such contrived nonsense. Build up non-white, non-cis, non-male, non-Christian as much as you want but you do it by tokenism or quotas people will rebel against them as it's both insulting and ham-fisted to pretty much everyone.

We got people rebelling about POC at Marvel & Dc no matter what is done.

So, you want a black member of the founding 7 regardless of how well it's done? And it will never be done well, by the way, because NONE of these characters were one of the Big 7and their inclusion will only stink of tokenism.

Because we have to have the big 7 who were formed during a time of racism and segregation? That excluded POC or made them racist stereotypes?

Meanwhile that OTHER company has no trouble with the Avengers roster? Because they are NOT stuck on who came first nonsense? Same with X-Men?

It's tokenism because CYBORG has been written that way since New 52. Because he's the safe pick like Storm is in X-Men-no one is going to get mad if they stay tokens. So all the attention can go to the PETS.

Funny outside of comics no one has this issue. In fact outside of DC-NO ONE has this issue.
IDW's GI Joe is not having this issue. Nor Transformers. Nor Sonic the Hedgehog. Nor Buffy. Nor Titans Robotech.

Worse, it continues the increasingly worrying trend of dehumanizing people by making them nothing more than whatever narrow group they identify as or are identified with.

The main folks who scream color over character DO NOT READ THE BOOKS.
They are also the MAIN ones that only TARGET POC or women. Funny the only 2 people attacked over Star Wars was Finn & Rose. Not Rey or Poe who have WAY more merchandise and stories than the supposed co-lead Finn.
Only Leslie Jones was targeted for Ghostbusters not Melissa McCarthy-NONE of her movies were boycotted.
I don't remember a straight white male book being set on fires, eaten, stabbed, peed on or banned from stores.
Cyborg in Justice League.
John Stewart in Green Lantern
Hotspot & Tattoo Man in Heroes in Crisis
Jason Rsuch in Legends of Tomorrow
This is all DEHUMANIZATION.

Green Lantern did not succeed because it sucked and WB botched everything during its production cycle, not because the main character did not look like the way some people, who tried to pretend to be speaking on behalf of everyone else, thought he was "supposed" to look like.

Meanwhile that was used against Catwoman & Steel to keep Black Panther, Miles & Carol Danvers out of theaters.

[JTHM]

"Tokenism" is a buzzword which it's only purpose is to say "Black (Or generally any ethnicity) characters shouldn't upset any status quo that white characters hold."

[Johnny]

Meanwhile that was used against Catwoman & Steel to keep Black Panther, Miles & Carol Danvers out of theaters.

Why were the Blade movies made then. He even got a TV show at one point. What kept those movies out of theaters was Ike Perlmutter, not the notion that the audience did not want to see black leads, which had already been proven wrong long before Black Panther.

[Ilan Preskovsky]

"Tokenism" is a buzzword which it's only purpose is to say "Black (Or generally any ethnicity) characters shouldn't upset any status quo that white characters hold."

Bollocks. No, it isn't. It's a term that refers to non-white characters that are CLEARLY there for no reason other than the colour of their skin. John Stewart in JLU was not tokenism; Steel in JLA was not tokenism; Cyborg as a founder of the JLA absolutely was. If you can't see the difference between these, I don't know what to tell you.

[j9ac9k]

Is that any better? Either way, it's ongoing.

No, of course that's not better. I'm only saying it's not a trend.

[Ilan Preskovsky]

We got people rebelling about POC at Marvel & Dc no matter what is done.

Absolutely. I have no sympathy for these people and I don't care what they have to say on the matter.

Because we have to have the big 7 who were formed during a time of racism and segregation? That excluded POC or made them racist stereotypes?

Meanwhile that OTHER company has no trouble with the Avengers roster? Because they are NOT stuck on who came first nonsense? Same with X-Men?

But these were the characters that were created. I'm sorry that Superman was created in the 1930s but hey, that's when he was. And the chance of modern characters reaching anywhere near that level, regardless of colour, is pretty much none.

And DC has been including POC on their major team books for years now. It's nothing new. Trying to inflate Cyborg into something he's not just because he happens to have brown skin is where the problem lies.

It's tokenism because CYBORG has been written that way since New 52. Because he's the safe pick like Storm is in X-Men-no one is going to get mad if they stay tokens. So all the attention can go to the PETS.

Um... huh?

Funny outside of comics no one has this issue. In fact outside of DC-NO ONE has this issue.
IDW's GI Joe is not having this issue. Nor Transformers. Nor Sonic the Hedgehog. Nor Buffy. Nor Titans Robotech.

They aren't? That's news to me. Especially as the next thing you say shows that it's certainly not just a DC thing.

The main folks who scream color over character DO NOT READ THE BOOKS.
They are also the MAIN ones that only TARGET POC or women. Funny the only 2 people attacked over Star Wars was Finn & Rose. Not Rey or Poe who have WAY more merchandise and stories than the supposed co-lead Finn.
Only Leslie Jones was targeted for Ghostbusters not Melissa McCarthy-NONE of her movies were boycotted.
I don't remember a straight white male book being set on fires, eaten, stabbed, peed on or banned from stores.
Cyborg in Justice League.
John Stewart in Green Lantern
Hotspot & Tattoo Man in Heroes in Crisis
Jason Rsuch in Legends of Tomorrow
This is all DEHUMANIZATION.

Again, though, no one's arguing that these full-on racist assholes aren't exactly that. This isn't about having non-whites in media; it's about how to include them without resorting to lazy, condescending and badly written tokenism. And, yes, it's about facing up to the reality that a character like Vixen is never, ever going to be as popular as Batman or Green Lantern - not because of racism but because they're ludicrously unrealistic expectations.

[j9ac9k]

"Tokenism" is a buzzword which it's only purpose is to say "Black (Or generally any ethnicity) characters shouldn't upset any status quo that white characters hold."

I don't want to misunderstand or put words in your mouth, but am I correct in understanding that you're citing "tokenism" as how it's used by those opposed to diversity? My experience has been that it's frequently used by those who are detractors of instances where inclusion is only paid lip-service; where the "token" has no value or given any importance other than simply being there to offer the pretense of equality.

Why were the Blade movies made then. He even got a TV show at one point. What kept those movies out of theaters was Ike Perlmutter, not the notion that the audience did not want to see black leads, which had already been proven wrong long before Black Panther.

It's unfortunate that it needs to be proven again and again and yes, it does seem that Perlmutter is ... not the best. However, the Marvel movies do have much much higher expectations where they need to be a global hit to not be a failure at this point. Was Black Panther the first in this arena? Maybe Will Smith is a better example than Blade since that was a much smaller franchise.

[Johnny]

It's unfortunate that it needs to be proven again and again and yes, it does seem that Perlmutter is ... not the best. However, the Marvel movies do have much much higher expectations where they need to be a global hit to not be a failure at this point. Was Black Panther the first in this arena? Maybe Will Smith is a better example than Blade since that was a much smaller franchise.

Will Smith was part of an ensemble cast in Suicide Squad, unless you were talking about Hancock which was technically a superhero movie as well. Otherwise, Blade was the first successful Marvel movie and it starred a black man. I think it says a lot when their first successful superhero flick was not about Spider-Man or the Fantastic Four, but an R-rated vampire movie starring an unknown black character.

[skyvolt2000]

Except they are of secondary status. They're not the Trinity. They're not the other four of the Big 7. They're not even B+ listers like Green Arrow or Zatanna. It's not because they're black, it's because they just don't have the cache that these characters have. Most of DC's heroes and villains don't. Black superheroes have gotten ongoing series, major roles in DC teams and plenty of minis but they've never gained the traction of Superman or the Flash because, well, of course they haven't. John Stewart can, arguably, but that's only because he's Green Lantern.

For all that DC can do with diversity and pushing certain characters, it's ultimately the general fandom who will decide on a character's popularity and whether they can hold a book of their own. DC may have pushed Cyborg as an "a lister" to almost comical levels but, ultimately, the fans decided that he wasn't and his solo book was cancelled time and time again and despite appearing everywhere he made very little impact.

You can not gain traction when NO ONE IS WILLING TO DO THE WORK.
You can not gain traction when NO ONE IS WILLING TO GIVE YOU SHOTS OR EDITORIAL IS A JOKE.
You can not gain traction without CONSISTENT USAGE.

CONSISTENT USAGE is NOT being in one book as Batman's internet or background fodder or being beating up by Black Panther's cousin. It is development and growth in that one book. A book that should be selling everyone not the PETS of the writer.

Where are these writers who are NOT named Priest or Hill at? Funny DC seems to keep chasing off the writers who can do that.

General fandom do not get to decide ANYTHING.
If Dan's boss ORDERS him to invest in Black Lighting or John Stewart to counter Panther.
Dan is NOT going to listen to fans. No matter the death threats or complaints.
Because that is business. Black Lighting fails 11 times guess what number 12 is on the way. His boss does not CARE about yall. All they see is the money Panther and friends bring in.
They want their cut. They want to know why is that not one of our guys. They don't want to HEAR about fans.

[j9ac9k]

Will Smith was part of an ensemble cast in Suicide Squad, unless you were talking about Hancock which was technically a superhero movie as well. Otherwise, Blade was the first successful Marvel movie and it starred a black man. I think it says a lot when their first successful superhero flick was not about Spider-Man or the Fantastic Four, but an R-rated vampire movie starring an unknown black character.

I was referring to Smith's success in general, not just superhero roles.

[Vampire Savior]

As the discussion goes on, it seems more and more obvious to me. All of this is the problem with trying to get into this universe that was established in the 1930s, and demanding major black characters from it that are on the level of these decades old major white ones. If you're looking for really well developed major black characters, this is simply not the place that offers that. If the company starts retconning the crap out of characters, turning white characters black, and replacing long running white characters with black ones, the people who like the universe the way it is will just get pissed, and the black people who actually support that will be just as selfish as the other people who don't want it.

You need new stuff with a modern outlook for modern audiences.

That's my main point. The DC is universe is just unlikely to give you what you want, and in the event it does, the fans will give you hell for it, and DC will probably just reverse the decision anyway.

[JTHM]

I don't want to misunderstand or put words in your mouth, but am I correct in understanding that you're citing "tokenism" as how it's used by those opposed to diversity? My experience has been that it's frequently used by those who are detractors of instances where inclusion is only paid lip-service; where the "token" has no value or given any importance other than simply being there to offer the pretense of equality.

Yes, you are.

Bollocks. No, it isn't. It's a term that refers to non-white characters that are CLEARLY there for no reason other than the colour of their skin. John Stewart in JLU was not tokenism; Steel in JLA was not tokenism; Cyborg as a founder of the JLA absolutely was. If you can't see the difference between these, I don't know what to tell you.

On the contrary, you are literally using it the way I described it just a few posts before when you referred to how black characters can't be in the Big 7 and it would never be done well.

News flash. It has. John Stewart was not one of the Big 7, he was made into one. Wally West was, but now he isn't. The spots can and do change. And in this era where we strive to make society a better place for everyone in there, not just the people in charge, it is absolutely necessary for the main cast of a franchise of superheroes (I repeat, superheroes, characters which are supposed to be an example to follow) to have a diverse cast. An all-out WASP cast is not diverse, and should be called out. Because at the end of the day these characters and their stories are fictional, and they can be changed at the will of the author.

As the discussion goes on, it seems more and more obvious to me. All of this is the problem with trying to get into this universe that was established in the 1930s, and demanding major black characters from it that are on the level of these decades old major white ones. If you're looking for really well developed major black characters, this is simply not the place that offers that. If the company starts retconning the crap out of characters, turning white characters black, and replacing long running white characters with black ones, the people who like the universe the way it is will just get pissed, and the black people who actually support that will be just as selfish as the other people who don't want it.

You need new stuff with a modern outlook for modern audiences.

That's my main point. The DC is universe is just unlikely to give you what you want, and in the event it does, the fans will give you hell for it, and DC will probably just reverse the decision anyway.

This is quite an insane statement the more I read into it. It's fine to excuse a work made in the 1930s and never updated to have a cast compromised mostly of white characters and with a jarring lack of POC in general because, well, that's how things were. But in this day and age, companies and people have a moral obligation to acknowledge and update themselves with time. DC is a modern company that is writing stories for a modern audience. Saying "Oh well this was established before Christ so I don't know why you guys ask for more black characters" is bonkers no matter how you read it. DC is not except of the social contract and it's responsibility as creators of fiction for the new generation. They make stories about heroes for ****'s sake. With what moral they can write stories about hope and optimism when they don't give a sizable part of their audience characters with whom to identify?

Like. This is literally shifting the blame from DC to the audience. It's crazy.

[Vampire Savior]

Yes, you are.



On the contrary, you are literally using it the way I described it just a few posts before when you referred to how black characters can't be in the Big 7 and it would never be done well.

News flash. It has. John Stewart was not one of the Big 7, he was made into one. Wally West was, but now he isn't. The spots can and do change. And in this era where we strive to make society a better place for everyone in there, not just the people in charge, it is absolutely necessary for the main cast of a franchise of superheroes (I repeat, superheroes, characters which are supposed to be an example to follow) to have a diverse cast. An all-out WASP cast is not diverse, and should be called out. Because at the end of the day these characters and their stories are fictional, and they can be changed at the will of the author.


This is quite an insane statement the more I read into it. It's fine to excuse a work made in the 1930s and never updated to have a cast compromised mostly of white characters and with a jarring lack of POC in general because, well, that's how things were. But in this day and age, companies and people have a moral obligation to acknowledge and update themselves with time. DC is a modern company that is writing stories for a modern audience. Saying "Oh well this was established before Christ so I don't know why you guys ask for more black characters" is bonkers no matter how you read it. DC is not except of the social contract and it's responsibility as creators of fiction for the new generation. They make stories about heroes for ****'s sake. With what moral they can write stories about hope and optimism when they don't give a sizable part of their audience characters with whom to identify?

Like. This is literally shifting the blame from DC to the audience. It's crazy.

What's crazy is you think DC has a moral obligation to do anything. It doesn't. And actually I DO blame (some) fans for the mentality of "WAH WAH WAH! You are OBLIGATED to do what I want. WAAAAAAH! RAAAACISM!!!!!" And then sticking around to repeat the process over and over again.
If it's that bad, get your fix someplace else.

But, what is it you specifically want DC to do? You want "more black characters"? I'm using the line in your post.
Making more black characters isn't going to solve the problem at hand. At least not by itself.

[JTHM]

What's crazy is you think DC has a moral obligation to do anything. It doesn't. And actually I DO blame (some) fans for the mentality of "WAH WAH WAH! You are OBLIGATED to do what I want. WAAAAAAH! RAAAACISM!!!!!" And then sticking around to repeat the process over and over again.
If it's that bad, get your fix someplace else.

But, what is it you specifically want DC to do? You want "more black characters"? I'm using the line in your post.
Making more black characters isn't going to solve the problem at hand. At least not by itself.

Actually, yes. Big companies like this do have at least the moral pretense of wanting to appeal to a diverse range of audience because, well.

1)There is black people who read comics
2)There is a problem with black representation in media in which we are all part of.

And no. I don't necessarily want DC to pop out more characters like they are eggs. Though, diversifying casts is a good thing when making new characters (Like, for example, Naomi) But what truly helps these characters giving them spotlight, good stories and importance they deserve.

[Vampire Savior]

Actually, yes. Big companies like this do have at least the moral pretense of wanting to appeal to a diverse range of audience because, well.

1)There is black people who read comics
2)There is a problem with black representation in media in which we are all part of.

And no. I don't necessarily want DC to pop out more characters like they are eggs. Though, diversifying casts is a good thing when making new characters (Like, for example, Naomi) But what truly helps these characters giving them spotlight, good stories and importance they deserve.

DC is going to do what DC is interested in doing and what it believes will make it money. Moral obligations? Those are probably down the list of priorities, so long as DC isn't doing anything completely outrageous. Furthermore, it's totally opinion that DC is NOT meeting a moral obligation with its black characters.

What the OP has stated they are looking for, they are not likely to get from DC. They are wanting DC to cast aside (in some fashion) popular, well established characters (like Hal Jordan) so they can have a black major character to take his spot. I do not believe DC is being immoral by not capitulating to those desires. If the black characters that DC currently has in the form DC currently has them, are not up to the OP's standards (and they don't seem to be) the OP is probably barking up the wrong tree with DC Comics.