Which of DC's Black Characters Has the Most Potential to Achieve Trinity Status?

[SecretWarrior]

The only way to make any character viable is to commit to regular publishing--even if it involves restarts--with talented creative teams who are interested in developing characters and expanding mythologies. Keep doing that, and eventually you have a character with a library and a mythology. If you don't sell what you intended, re-evaluate and re-try with the same character until you get it right. Put some thought into the character and what role they can fill that isn't being filled. Treat them like you do your other big guns. If the character isn't bringing anything new because there's another tech guy or detective or speedster on the varsity team, then that's the wrong character to push. If the character isn't powerful enough to stand with the other members of the varsity team, then that's the wrong character to push. If the character is going to be talked down to in order to maintain the relevance of another character, then that's the wrong character to push. Imagine this character has a fanbase like Superman, Batman, or Wonder Woman, and think about depictions that would tick off those fanbases as well--then avoid that. Also, test for universal appeal-- Would this character and their issues be relate-able or interesting to someone in China or Norway or Ghana?

[j9ac9k]

The Amazing Man (slight redesign - I wasn't really feeling the military-ish tunic with short sleeves)

[Cap808]

That artwork is awesome! Just a handful of these characters would make an amazing team!

John Stewart/Cyborg/Vixen/Black Lighting/Kid Flash/Aquaman...wow!!!

[Midnight_v]

The only way to make any character viable is to commit to regular publishing--even if it involves restarts--with talented creative teams who are interested in developing characters and expanding mythologies. Keep doing that, and eventually you have a character with a library and a mythology. If you don't sell what you intended, re-evaluate and re-try with the same character until you get it right. Put some thought into the character and what role they can fill that isn't being filled. Treat them like you do your other big guns. If the character isn't bringing anything new because there's another tech guy or detective or speedster on the varsity team, then that's the wrong character to push. If the character isn't powerful enough to stand with the other members of the varsity team, then that's the wrong character to push. If the character is going to be talked down to in order to maintain the relevance of another character, then that's the wrong character to push. Imagine this character has a fanbase like Superman, Batman, or Wonder Woman, and think about depictions that would tick off those fanbases as well--then avoid that. Also, test for universal appeal-- Would this character and their issues be relate-able or interesting to someone in China or Norway or Ghana?

Quick question. Do you mean commit to publishing something even if it tanks? Like....
"We're going to do *THIS* no matter what it costs us... were going to MAKE "Character X" a thing!"

[Vampire Savior]

While that line of thinking can certainly be abused, I can understand it to a point. One thing about business is that, a lot of the time, you don't start making money right away with an endeavor. Sometimes you have to take losses before you start making money. That's not out of the ordinary. Although, you can have something that just nobody wants and you NEVER make money. It's a big gamble. That's why they call entrepreneurs "risk takers".

So, even if a character isn't selling right away, you can still build up a back list of content that can be very beneficial to you in the long run.

[Midnight_v]

While that line of thinking can certainly be abused, I can understand it to a point. One thing about business is that, a lot of the time, you don't start making money right away. Sometimes you have to take losses before you start making money. That's not out of the ordinary. Although, you can have something that just nobody wants and you NEVER make money. It's a big gamble. That's why they call entrepreneurs "risk takers".

So, even if a character isn't selling right away, you can still build up a back list of content that can be very beneficial to you in the long run.

Maybe... I'm trying to wrap my mind around the last hero that worked for. Like really worked well for. Seems middling at best.
Example: Deadpool was a gold mine, Wolverine was a gold mine, Cable was a gold mine. . . (at some point) putting them in a book made the sales jump. So
giving them their own series was an answer to the fans WALLETS.

I think it was this thread that I mentioned I kept buying these "Mr.Terrific" start up books. Nu52, The Terrifics, and I bought the Outsider flashpoint book when I realized he and his wife were going to be in it . . . and while I find him interesting, and think he has a great look with a lot of gravitas. I'm not sure that any amount of "push" is going to get him there. . .
Then again... I bought all but he last issue of Mr. Miracle just on word of mouth.

So, MAYBE its about putting the strongest talent on the book. Big Names draw people in sometimes. I mean its a mix of factors and certain writeres lend themselves to certain content better than others imho.

I read the warren ellis Moon Knight run on a whim and it was great on of the greatest runs on a b-tier character ever... then the writer changed and the artist changed and ... It went "oh wait actually Moon Knights not talking to a god, he's crazy or both!"
and it was far less interesting that him being a supernatural detective that punches ghosts, and protects overnight travellers.

Daken was a similar thing during dark avengers he was some kind of Master of Machinations, then in his own book his got his ass beat 80% of the issues, and after it was cancelled he was drown in a puddle, by the real wolverine, and.... it was really eye opening. People do want the characters they like to get wins and as the above poster said:

Treat them like you do your other big guns.

If the character isn't powerful enough to stand with the other members of the varsity team, then that's the wrong character to push. If the character is going to be talked down to in order to maintain the relevance of another character, then that's the wrong character to push. Imagine this character has a fanbase like Superman, Batman, or Wonder Woman, and think about depictions that would tick off those fanbases as well--then avoid that. Also, test for universal appeal-

I agree with all that. . . thats what I saw with Daken and Ellis' Moonknight.

But... I don't think there's a writer in the world thats going to influence somoene to read
"Vixen" or "Cyborg" if they weren't already checking for those books.


I mean... I don' think we're ever honest about some of these characters being pretty damn mediocre to anyone outside the bubble of what's being looked for here.

So, even if a character isn't selling right away, you can still build up a back list of content that can be very beneficial to you in the long run.

Shrug. Thats viable only in the sense that there's an impetus for a certain character getting a push to begin with. Like I mentioned above with wolverine and cable.

I mean I'd seen it argued dc "NEEDS" a black character to stand as a rival to T'challa, but then they made a billion on polynesian aquaman.

IDK what the right answer is... I'm not saying "NO ONE SHOULD TRY" but seriously.... I actually remebered amazing man, and IIRC he's basically absorbing man or someone like Bishop... or Prodigy?... or Synch?
I think I'D read a book about "ColdCast" before one about that guy.

Someone has to believe in a property enough to get it the initial push. Or they have to have some greater incentive. Idk gents.

[Vampire Savior]

But... I don't think there's a writer in the world thats going to influence somoene to read
"Vixen" or "Cyborg" if they weren't already checking for those books.

I mean... I don' think we're ever honest about some of these characters being pretty damn mediocre to anyone outside the bubble of what's being looked for here.

Vixen can work, but you have to have the right creators putting in the right effort, and at the right time, and you have to do this consistently. This is actually "the right time" for something like that, because there is a desire for black heroines more than ever. That said, it's unlikely that you will find creators that are talented enough to get her going and willing to put in the amount of work to get her going. Most truly talented creators will not surrender that level of creative energy to a product they don't own, especially when it's on such a low tier character. For example, George R. R. Martin will not waste his time working on Vixen, because it's a waste of his time and he would be lowering himself to do something like that.

However, I don't see anything conceptually wrong with Vixen to where she just couldn't work as a franchise. It's just unlikely that she will because I doutbt the stars will align for her like that.

Cyborg...eh. I never want to say never, but...he's just not a very desirable solo superhero character, in my opinion.

But building a character like Vixen...I'm running through it in my head right now...it's too much work. You may as well have created Vixen if you're going to do that...but you didn't, and you won't get enough credit for all your work. All you have is the character and a power set. There's nearly nothing else there. No world. No villains. No support cast. You would literally have to make all that up. And you'd have to make it REALLY good to work. Just not worth it for a (wise) creator. You're probably better off creating a Vixen-inspired hero and building your own brand. Nowadays creators have the outlets to get that stuff out there themselves.

[Sutekh]

Vixen can work, but you have to have the right creators putting in the right effort, and at the right time, and you have to do this consistently. This is actually "the right time" for something like that, because there is a desire for black heroines more than ever.

That's kind of how I see it. It needs to be 'the right time' *and* there needs to be 'the right person' itching to develop that character.

At the moment, I feel like the iron is hot to develop almost any POC or minority character. Black female, asian male, gay, whatever. But if there's not someone at DC (or Marvel) who has a burning story to tell with said character, then it's got less of a shot than if they push something out to fill that niche, and, inadvertently, end up souring the market on that idea, and leading to a situation like the mood after Elektra and Catwoman flopped, where Avi Arad said, 'Fans don't want to see movies about strong women,' which became some sort of conventional wisdom, when he *should* have said, 'Fans would spend a billion dollars on a good movie about a strong (Wonder) woman, but they don't want to see movies that suck...'

And that's my nagging doubt about a Cyborg movie, or whatever, is that it could have been pushed out 'because the time was right' despite there not being a great story or enthusiastic creative direction behind it, it bombing, and some old white idiots with their out-of-touch 'common sense' and far too much say over what movies get greenlit saying, 'Fans don't want to see movies about a black superhero.' (Thankfully Black Panther is there to prove said idiot wrong!)

[Midnight_v]

Vixen can work, but you have to have the right creators putting in the right effort, and at the right time, and you have to do this consistently. This is actually "the right time" for something like that, because there is a... a desire for black heroines more than ever

Brah.
I think... the amount of **** I'd get for coming for vixen right now is pretty high as to be not worth it. but...
Key in on "If they weren't already checking for those books"/If they're outside this bubble we're in.

I let it be known that I wasn't checking for moon knight or Mr.Miracle when I picked one up on a whim (or because Ellis was writing it moreso) and Mr.Miracle because the store was abuzz with "Have you read it. You gotta read this".

But building a character like Vixen...I'm running through it in my head right now...it's too much work. You may as well have created Vixen if you're going to do that...but you didn't, and you won't get enough credit for all your work. All you have is the character and a power set. There's nearly nothing else there. No world. No villains. No support cast. You would literally have to make all that up. And you'd have to make it REALLY good to work. Just not worth it for a (wise) creator. You're probably better off creating a Vixen-inspired hero and building your own brand. Nowadays creators have the outlets to get that stuff out there themselves.

Wait. Do you remember when she was in the International Ultra Marine Corps? Or Suicide squad?
I literally thought from glancing at her that for a couple years that she was the same character as Crimson fox from the JLI or her twin sister.

Vixen's popularity is born IN SOME PART out of what you said but its not desire for a black female heroine, its desperation. Because she's kinda bland, and bad.

Vixen is a stupid name.
Female fox, or Video Thot, and the first one is where I literally thought upon occasion she was crimson fox with a redesign.

Visually she looks like reeks of halle berry Catwoman, but when she doesn't look like that in the face she's literally where the worst mashups
of Sabertooh, Kraven, Wolverine, and Timberwolf (from legion of heroes)

Powerset: "The Red" the Parliament of Limbs, the green, the gray, that entire thing... Its a bit bereft of ideas. Morrison made that up not long ago and...
I think that people get excited and use this "connection" to expand her powers and etc etc they're just doing what the storm fans are doing in the x-threads. Its silly, but moreso?
It convinces me that they did NOT read Grant Morrisons animal man... like At ALL, and while you say there's no supporting cast for her... I'd like to point out that she'd
be intrinsically tied in some way to what Buddy Baker.
Out side of that... "Oh she has the red" she's really tappeed into the "Morphogenic field" or whatever. its just... I mean... it didn't work for Animal Man either. Even though someone cared enough to write all that for Buddy.
Oh wait... But but.... she's the Champion of Anansi.
I mean. Bruh.

Personal life:
Something about the fact that she's a Model, named Vixen... its just a little to spot on for me.

But while I agree with some of your points, I'll have to say I'm sure she has a pretty long history for a writer to draw on. I've been seeing this character forever, and even when I remind myself that she WASN'T the same chick from the JLI but the one from the UltraMarines.... they've certainly kept here in circulation a bit.
...................................

So that being the case maybe this is a good example of what Secret Warrior talked about.

Keep pushing a character, keep working on the powers, origin, story until you get something that sticks.

In my heart though I think she's there because of the cartoons and that goes back to one guy favoring her a bit, and thats where she gets her most KNOWN characterizations from.


So on that note. . . John is popular and a big part of her popularity relates back to the JLU cartoon series. The more I think of it. So I guess a good push will attract fans.

But she's winning by default because he's in a near vacuum of black characters.

and some old white idiots with their out-of-touch 'common sense' and far too much say over what movies get greenlit saying, 'Fans don't want to see movies about a black superhero.'

My man... the same set of old white idiots green lit, Blade and Black Panther. and put black domino in deadpool. You don't see Oprah producing a big budget Super hero flick. Just chill.
People draw the wrong conclusions from data all the time.

[Vampire Savior]

Vixen's popularity is born IN SOME PART out of what you said but its not desire for a black female heroine, its desperation. Because she's kinda bland, and bad.

I don't entirely disagree. I said earlier that I believe some black fans just accept whatever garbage DC throws at them because the character is black, and I admit I find something kinda' sad about that, because it highlights how desperately character starved the fans are. As does a thread like this.

I never related with that way of thinking. The only black character at DC I like at all is John Stewart, and I have serious issues with him. I can't get into a character JUST BECAUSE they are black. I can't support Cyborg just because he's black. I can't support fake Wally West just because he's black. I got into John Stewart because he had an interesting mythology backing him, and I believed he was a great character on his own. His being black was an added bonus that I certainly noted and greatly appreciated. When I got into him, I didn't know that he usually only plays bit parts in the comics, because I saw him being a major character in cartoons. That was...disappointing.

Some fans seem to have a different way of thinking. It seems to me that before they see anything, they see black, and that's good enough for them, and it doesn't even matter if the character is worth a damn (and the character usually isn't). No, I'm not into Amazing Man, either. I disliked Cyborg ever since I first saw him, because he looked like crap. It didn't matter that he was black. So I understand what you're saying, in that regard.

[Midnight_v]

I don't entirely disagree. I said earlier that I believe some black fans just accept whatever garbage DC throws at them because the character is black, and I admit I find something kinda' sad about that, because it highlights how desperately character starved the fans are. As does a thread like this.

I never related with that way of thinking. The only black character at DC I like at all is John Stewart, and I have serious issues with him. I can't get into a character JUST BECAUSE they are black. I can't support Cyborg just because he's black. I can't support fake Wally West just because he's black. I got into John Stewart because he had an interesting mythology backing him, and I believed he was a great character on his own. His being black was an added bonus that I certainly noted and greatly appreciated. When I got into him, I didn't know that he usually only plays bit parts in the comics, because I saw him being a major character in cartoons. That was...disappointing.

Some fans seem to have a different way of thinking. It seems to me that before they see anything, they see black, and that's good enough for them, and it doesn't even matter if the character is worth a damn (and the character usually isn't). No, I'm not into Amazing Man, either. I disliked Cyborg ever since I first saw him, because he looked like crap. It didn't matter that he was black. So I understand what you're saying, in that regard.

Yeah. I guess we're on the same page on that one. Just because I'm black doesn't mean I'm biting at the bit and will accept anything, but I will say....

Even marvel fails pretty hard if were honest. Consider that there isn't at minimum a blade halloween special. Instead of making him their "Action Constantine" we too often get Blaxplotation Helsing. The horrible thing is
a lot of people don't rankle about it. I mean I still love him but theres no reason his solo book isn't better.
Marvel actually has LOTS of awesome Black Characters and doesn't do **** with them.

John Stewart aside... Dc has a bunch of middling black characters and there isn't a lot to do with them.
I mean, I was jogging my memory when I came to think "Oh yeah ColdCast was on the Justice League: elite wasn't he" Along with 2 hispanic female and an asian guy, or a native american guy.
And they made that an ACTUAL JUSTICE LEAGUE BOOK!

I'm pretty sure they've tried, but haven't succeeded....

Just like with so many books outside of the core franchises over the years.

The best thing Dc had outside of "Justice something" was vertigo... watchmen... sandman... but in the core universe?

Who even exists in solos or group books that aren't derivative of the JSA,JLA, Titans, Legion? Thats rhetorical.

The point I'm trying to make is more like... DC has a problem making new properties. Admittedly thats a hard thing to do.
When they try? They don't get the props they deserve. ColdCast... BloodStone... Ahmazing man.... stuff they tried all along to do.
and finally... Its probably the worst time, financially for american comics in a long time.
So investing is cool but damn the payout is just sooooooooo far away.

Smh.

[skyvolt2000]

I don't entirely disagree. I said earlier that I believe some black fans just accept whatever garbage DC throws at them because the character is black, and I admit I find something kinda' sad about that, because it highlights how desperately character starved the fans are. As does a thread like this.

Because they have been feed the BS by certain fandoms (ESPECIALLY in Green Lantern) that you are to support whatever because if you don't, it says you don't want it. Quality of book does not matter when it comes to characters of color.

Meanwhile Wally West, Tim Drake, Conner Kent, Bart Allen & OTHERS had support and outsold certain icons. How did that work out for them?
If it was not for Bendis-Tim's generation probably would have been slaughtered in Heroes in Crisis with poor Hotspot.

Maybe... I'm trying to wrap my mind around the last hero that worked for. Like really worked well for. Seems middling at best.
Example: Deadpool was a gold mine, Wolverine was a gold mine, Cable was a gold mine. . . (at some point) putting them in a book made the sales jump. So
giving them their own series was an answer to the fans WALLETS.

Look at Deadpool's history. Deadpool first appeared in 1991. He then got 2 minis before his first ongoing in 1997-2002. A third solo in 2008-2012. 4th in 2013-2015. 5th is ongoing now.
2004-2008-team up book with Deadpool.
He has ALWAYS been active in a book since 1997. Same with Cable & Logan.
Once again CONSISTENT USAGE beyond cameos come into play. Along with who WRITES him. Priest, Gail Simone, Fabian & McGuiness are NOT bums.

My man... the same set of old white idiots green lit, Blade and Black Panther. and put black domino in deadpool. You don't see Oprah producing a big budget Super hero flick. Just chill. People draw the wrong conclusions from data all the time.

But what is being said is true. The excuse to NOT make Black Panther or Cap Marvel was Catwoman, Electra & Steel flopping. Notice not one white male lead movie was mentioned.
Folk HARP on A Wrinkle in Time failing to attack Ava and Disney. Yet no one wants to point out Disney's biggest was Solo, John Carter & Lone Ranger. Who had larger budgets.

A person had to be REMOVED from Disney & Sony to get Miles, Carol & Black Panther made. Fox also gave you a black Johnny Storm, wallpaper Storm, Immortal black guys that die, black guys just dying and a Sunspot that needed a tan.

Yes you don't see Oprah producing a hero flick. What reason would she have to? She is not going against Marvel. Yes you do have black folks trying but they are all running into a brick wall called FUNDING. Because with funding comes conditions.
Ask Tyler Perry about that. He left money on the table when a studio showed him a list of changes to Madea they wanted.

[Midnight_v]

Look at Deadpool's history. Deadpool first appeared in 1991. He then got 2 minis before his first ongoing in 1997-2002. A third solo in 2008-2012. 4th in 2013-2015. 5th is ongoing now.
2004-2008-team up book with Deadpool.
He has ALWAYS been active in a book since 1997. Same with Cable & Logan.

Yeah... because appearances by those characters made sales in books SPIKE, just by appearing the same way batman does. OMFGROFLMAO... get me the rofl copter. Were not talking about suck ass cyborg that people can take a look at and
go... yeah, No.

Violent Cowboy archetype anti-heroes action heroes ran the 90's. and those 3 sat at the top of that heap, be serious my man.

Characters that show up and sell themselves are a far cry from saying "Lets push a black character NO MATTER WHAT! WE GOTTA GET THOSE DIVERSITY BUCKS! *RUBS HANDS TOGETHER* .

Folk HARP on A Wrinkle in Time failing to attack Ava and Disney. Yet no one wants to point out Disney's biggest was Solo, John Carter & Lone Ranger. Who had larger budgets.

I'm not sure if this is uniformed or a lie... john carter got a lot of "What the F#($*, Lone Ranger got laughed and and revilled because of Tanto, and not sure how your writing it but if you mean
Solo.... like Han Solo? Thats a joke right? The internet was alive with the sound of crapping on it.

I mean... just be honest.
"The old white man.... hes keepin us down..." gtfo, cause Old White Men are greenlighting pictures too. Stop acting like you've never seen a picture of Kevin Feige, I mean maybe you've legit never SEEN Kevin Grant but...
Its not 1960, people are well aware that you can make blade, Black panter, Powerman properties. . .

The problem isn't that ITT thread. The problem is DC doesn't seem to have good enough or interesting enough characters to do that from here. Without .... I mean... Issues man.
Its hard to take them to task about their "black problem" when the whole line is....
Brah they're so desperate they pulled the trigger on:
"LETS MAKE EVERYONE BATMAN."
Smh. I read your post where you said you don't even buy DC comics anymore and won't no matter what they do iirc. I just don't have that type of agnst with DC.


Personally... I'd read Stewart in Darkstars again and just shut the green lantern kids up.
Its about the character not the suit quite often anyway for us.

Can you imagine the EGG on DC'S faces if someone just made a Darkstars with john stewart that was better than anything else they produced.
Axanar style?

Finally at the end of the day... write a good book for me, something excellent AND have the lead be black. I'll toss you a nickel or 2 dc. Seriously its not rocket science. Its just challenging.

[SecretWarrior]

The Darkstars will never take off as an independent concept. Creatively, what role would they play that Green Lanterns aren't currently?

Midnight V does make a good point about actually creating a character who will attract readership even in guest appearances, but that comes from finding a characterization that fans actually like. No one knew people would like Miles or Deadpool until those ideas were sold well.

You need a talented creator who is passionate about creating a successful character. That passion can come from various places--nostalgia, revitalizing a concept, social justice... But it's rare that a writer will use their good ideas for existing IP, unless they're trying to correct something or develop a name. Basically, the writers who were around in the early 2000s, but with a particular interest in black characters--or at least John Stewart, who's the leading candidate despite decades of editorial mismanagement.

Green Lantern(s), regardless of the lead, outsells GLC regardless of the lead. You're guaranteed to get people picking up a book starring John if he's made the lead, simply because people want to follow the main title. Then you've got the added fans of the character himself. The creative team will pull in their own numbers based on the quality of the stories. But history shows editorial won't do this.

Anyway, this thread has answered who has the most potential. Too bad DC doesn't care about potential. Short term thinking is what's gotten them where they are now, and I don't see that changing with TPTB. Short term thinking, not evolving with natural trends-- that's how IP dies.

[Ascended]

So that being the case maybe this is a good example of what Secret Warrior talked about.

Keep pushing a character, keep working on the powers, origin, story until you get something that sticks.

Don't mean to step in on you guys' conversation.....but I'm gonna do it anyway. Apologies.

Anyway, yeah man I think this is generally how it works with most characters. We always remember the big break out stars like Miles and Kamala but we forget all the new stars who never got beyond issue 6. Far more often the hot new book is a C-list character who just lingered in the background for thirty years until somebody stumbled on something hot, and Boom! suddenly friggin Squirrel Girl is showing up everywhere. Gotta keep putting in some effort, trying stuff out, until you hit the win.

I mean, you gotta throw new faces out there too and hope for another Naomi or Miles too, but you think back to a lot of big characters today, not all of them started out big. Even Harley wasn't an instant smash hit.

In my heart though I think she's there because of the cartoons and that goes back to one guy favoring her a bit, and thats where she gets her most KNOWN characterizations from.

That's all it takes, isn't it? Right person in the right place?