Earth Δ: what would you like to see?

[Dataweaver]

This is the last of the threads that I'll be starting that are based off of the “Metaversal spin-off Earths” concept introduced in Doomsday Clock #12. Frankly, there are only two other divergence points I can think of, and both are highly questionable (Zero Hour and the transition from Silver Age to Bronze Age are possibilities; but they're more like Hypertime echoes of the pre-Infinite Crisis Earth and the Earth-1985 respectively: alternate what-if variants that differ in that these transitions never happened.)

Earth-Δ is the name I'm using for the Earth that's based on the latter part of the 1985-to-New 52 stretch, the DCU of the 00s. I'm using Δ (Delta) to refer to it because that's the mathematical symbol for change; and the period in question was very much a time of change and upheaval: after nearly a decade where DC was maintaining a fairly stable timeline, this period opened the floodgates of temporal manipulation. In particular, start this era in early-to-mid 2003, and end it with Flashpoint. Stuff that was published between 1985 and 2003 probably also happened on Earth-Δ; but as long as the 2003–2011 window remains more or less consistent, changes to the stuff that lead up to it are acceptable. Indeed, given the timeline rewrites of this era, minor changes to its history are almost to be expected.

Likewise: Flashpoint didn't happen (or maybe it did, but didn't end with the creation of the New 52; just a reversion to how things were just before it). At the start of the new history of this Earth, Tim Drake is still Red Robin and in the Kingdom Come costume; Stephanie Brown is still Batgirl; Barbara Gordon is still Oracle; Dick Grayson and Damian Wayne are still Batman and Robin; and Bruce had just returned from his ordeal after his apparent death in Final Crisis. The Justice League resembles the New Titans more than it does its original founders, who have all moved on (Superman just concluded his Grounded tour of America, and Wonder Woman may or may not still be in her JMS phase; it ended literally just before Flashpoint, and almost certainly due to an editorial mandate to wrap it up because New 52 is coming).

So what would you do with it?

[Restingvoice]

Definitely keep Batman Inc, international Bruce Batman, local Dick Batman, Damian Robin, Stephanie Batgirl for as long as possible.

Dick Grayson will be dealing with the Court of Owls as Batman, as it should since Snyder created that story for him. Instead of Harper, it will be Cass who saved his life after escaping the Labyrinth, since Harper was only created because Snyder couldn't use Cass.

Jason was leaving Gotham with Scarlet so that will be his Outlaws. Roy recently lost Lian, so maybe they can still both be Outlaws as a way of coping. Convergence has Jason, Damian and Bruce make up, so that can lead to the current status of Jason being a more anti-hero. So that's the Outlaws. Jason, Roy, and Scarlet instead of Starfire, since she's in the League.

Morrison would still continue until Damian dies, so that's still gonna happen, and he's still going to be resurrected because WB wants to sell Son of Batman. To fulfill that demand, Bruce and Dick will share Damian.

I want Jason to still be Wingman, but after the Convergence scenario where he and Bruce made up.

Stephanie and the fam dismantled St. Hadrian's finishing school for girls and Damian killed Dr. Daedalus, then Kathy took over Spyral. So Batman's suspicion of Spyral as written by Tom King and Tim Seeley wouldn't exist. If he wants to send Dick to investigate, the task will be to find Kathy, who disappears after Batman Inc was done.

Red Robin rejoins his old Titans with Bart, Cassie, Kon, Gar, Jackson Hyde, Solstice, and Miss Martian. Lobdell's idea about an organization that kidnaps new child metahuman is good, Harvest just needs to be less OP, and the kids he kidnaps are the next generation Titans instead of old names like Gar and Artemis.

Catwoman is still a member of Batman Inc and her relationship with Batman is going well so we can have that marriage sooner than later, especially once the whole Leviathan, Talia and Damian's problems are taken care of.

Also based on Convergence, Dick and Babs will be married. Hey, let's have a double wedding with Batman and Catwoman.

The Titans are members of the Justice League alongside the originals. I like the originals enough I want to keep them. Make them Team A and Team B.

Alec Holland was recently resurrected, and I like the New 52 version, both Snyder and Soule, so they can use that lore except maybe the part where he's never Swamp Thing in the past.

As with Convergence, Lois and Clark are expecting baby Jon, but now the age difference between Jon and Damian will be ten years. So there won't be Super Sons... unless we follow Bendis and age him up ten years so he'll be the same age of Damian.

By the way, when's Ted Kord resurrected? He and Booster just appeared in Justice League 3000 but I don't know about Pre-Flashpoint.

Harley can still be recruited to the Suicide Squad. Needs better costume than whatever that was though. Later on, Captain Boomerang who was recruited to the Squad is the son, since the dad died.

Again like Convergence, Stephanie, Tim and Cass share apartments and Steph and Tim continue their relationship. Steph will remain in Gotham as Batgirl while Tim goes with his Titans. The adventures of Gail Simone's Batgirl, and eventually, Burnside, will go to Steph (except of course anything involving the Gordon family)

[Dataweaver]

Good idea about mining Convergence for Earth-Δ developments, with the main difference being that those developments too place on Earth-Δ rather than on Telos. For Lois and Clark, I'd insert a time travel adventure into Superman's career where he and Lois find themselves trapped ten years in the past with Clark depowered. Jon's conception and birth happen then; and instead of trying to find a way back to the present, Lois and Clark decide to “take the slowboat” back to the present and raise Jon. The rough outline of Superman: Lois and Clark happen in this way, with the difference that they're still on the same Earth, with no changes. They go quiet because they don't want r to risk changing history; and instead of his return to the limelight being because of the death of his pre-timeloop self, it's solely because they catch up with the point where they were sent back in time and step (more or less seamlessly) back into their previous lives — but ten years older and with a nine-year-old son. That might take some explaining (Jon might need to pretend to be their adopted son); but with those caveats, we can have a version of the Supersons on Earth-Δ.

I like it.

[Aahz]

Jason was leaving Gotham with Scarlet so that will be his Outlaws. Roy recently lost Lian, so maybe they can still both be Outlaws as a way of coping. Convergence has Jason, Damian and Bruce make up, so that can lead to the current status of Jason being a more anti-hero. So that's the Outlaws. Jason, Roy, and Scarlet instead of Starfire, since she's in the League.

I would be really tempted to erase all the Red Hood Stuff after count down, which feels really out of character. And I think I would stick with convergence and bring Lian back.

[Restingvoice]

Oh right... Convergence did bring Lian back

I agree with that

So... Jason continues his adventure with Donna and Kyle and be a much more likable person, skipping his more insane portrayal in Battle for The Cowl and Morrison, until Batman called him back to lead a secret division of Batman Inc because Donna and Kyle vouched for him?

[Jackalope89]

I would be really tempted to erase all the Red Hood Stuff after count down, which feels really out of character. And I think I would stick with convergence and bring Lian back.

Agreed. Though Jason taking in Scarlet, helping her out, I could still see.

[Dataweaver]

The one catch to replying on Convergence is that Convergence sometimes relies on interactions with other Earths. Such is the case with the return of Lian. That said: with the exception of Lois and Clark, I could see Earth-Δ's history actually incorporating the Convergence event: Gotham was abducted to an alien world; everyone was held powerless for a year; then they were thrown into conflicts with cities from other worlds before being sent home. It all happened. Again, the one quirk to this is that Superman didn't come back with them. And that can be ironed out by saying that his interference in the first Crisis resulting in the Kents being bifurcated, with one copy returning to Earth 0 (which, at the time, was still in the New 52 era) and the other being sent to Earth-Δ.

Yeah; that neatly preserves everything, with a minimum of changes. That said, I'd say that Gotham was taken from Earth-Δ just before Flash Rebirth, as Wally's kids in Convergence were clearly their pre-Flash Rebirth selves. I'd still have Flash Rebirth happen, mainly because I'd like to see what Johns would have done with the Speed Force title he was setting up.

[scary harpy]

wow.

From 1986 to 2002 is a very long time.

Was there nothing during that time that changed an era for Superman?

[Dataweaver]

1986 to 2002 isn't that different than, say, 1956 to 1986; in fact, it's considerably shorter. There was Zero Hour right in the middle of that timespan; but that's not so much a different era as it is the end of the transition from pre-Crisis to post-Crisis (yes, the transition took a decade to complete).

But that's more of an Earth-Σ thing; Earth-Δ deals with 2003 to 2011.

[Zaresh]

Definitely keep Batman Inc, international Bruce Batman, local Dick Batman, Damian Robin, Stephanie Batgirl for as long as possible.

Dick Grayson will be dealing with the Court of Owls as Batman, as it should since Snyder created that story for him. Instead of Harper, it will be Cass who saved his life after escaping the Labyrinth, since Harper was only created because Snyder couldn't use Cass.

Jason was leaving Gotham with Scarlet so that will be his Outlaws. Roy recently lost Lian, so maybe they can still both be Outlaws as a way of coping. Convergence has Jason, Damian and Bruce make up, so that can lead to the current status of Jason being a more anti-hero. So that's the Outlaws. Jason, Roy, and Scarlet instead of Starfire, since she's in the League.

Morrison would still continue until Damian dies, so that's still gonna happen, and he's still going to be resurrected because WB wants to sell Son of Batman. To fulfill that demand, Bruce and Dick will share Damian.

I want Jason to still be Wingman, but after the Convergence scenario where he and Bruce made up.

Stephanie and the fam dismantled St. Hadrian's finishing school for girls and Damian killed Dr. Daedalus, then Kathy took over Spyral. So Batman's suspicion of Spyral as written by Tom King and Tim Seeley wouldn't exist. If he wants to send Dick to investigate, the task will be to find Kathy, who disappears after Batman Inc was done.

Red Robin rejoins his old Titans with Bart, Cassie, Kon, Gar, Jackson Hyde, Solstice, and Miss Martian. Lobdell's idea about an organization that kidnaps new child metahuman is good, Harvest just needs to be less OP, and the kids he kidnaps are the next generation Titans instead of old names like Gar and Artemis.

Catwoman is still a member of Batman Inc and her relationship with Batman is going well so we can have that marriage sooner than later, especially once the whole Leviathan, Talia and Damian's problems are taken care of.

Also based on Convergence, Dick and Babs will be married. Hey, let's have a double wedding with Batman and Catwoman.

The Titans are members of the Justice League alongside the originals. I like the originals enough I want to keep them. Make them Team A and Team B.

Alec Holland was recently resurrected, and I like the New 52 version, both Snyder and Soule, so they can use that lore except maybe the part where he's never Swamp Thing in the past.

As with Convergence, Lois and Clark are expecting baby Jon, but now the age difference between Jon and Damian will be ten years. So there won't be Super Sons... unless we follow Bendis and age him up ten years so he'll be the same age of Damian.

By the way, when's Ted Kord resurrected? He and Booster just appeared in Justice League 3000 but I don't know about Pre-Flashpoint.

Harley can still be recruited to the Suicide Squad. Needs better costume than whatever that was though. Later on, Captain Boomerang who was recruited to the Squad is the son, since the dad died.

Again like Convergence, Stephanie, Tim and Cass share apartments and Steph and Tim continue their relationship. Steph will remain in Gotham as Batgirl while Tim goes with his Titans. The adventures of Gail Simone's Batgirl, and eventually, Burnside, will go to Steph (except of course anything involving the Gordon family)

Bringing and merging stuff from Convergence with this timeline for "fixing" it, is a very smart thing to do. I love it.

I would let Ted dead. But then I think Jaime needs some not really that mature adult for a counterpoint to him to work better. I liked their dynamic in the Rebirth book, even if I wasn't that sold by how it was written. So, maybe if we don't bring Ted back, we would need someone else. Or not. Jaime works fine as himself alone too.

As for Jason, Roy and Scarlet, that's a smart choice too, hey! I could see Roy under those circumstances joining in, too. Scarlet is supposed to not be an action girl anymore, so we need more members. I think we would need a supes for the team, and maybe an amazon. Artemis is dead if I'm not mistaken, and clone Bizarro doesn't exist (I don't see the original Biz joining, to be honest). Edit: he he, erasing that post-Countdown version is another option, yeah. But let's play a "fix it" game with the toys and rules that we've been given; those can be fun to play too. And, oh, if we bring Lian back, we can count out Roy. I don't see him messing with that kind of stuff with her in mind.

[Dataweaver]

I forget exactly when Requiem happened, bringing Artemis back to life. But it was definitely before 2011 (and may even have been before 2003); so if you want Artemis on your pre-N52 Red Hood and the Outlaws team, go for it!

That said, Earth-Δ's window begins with Winick's Outsiders; I could see a variant of that team making s comeback with Red Hood as a member instead of Nightwing. Call them the Outlaws instead of the Outsiders to distance them from the more traditional Outsiders team (because, frankly, they had nothing in common with the “real” Outsiders); but you could include virtually the entire roster and you'd be set.

[Zaresh]

I forget exactly when Requiem happened, bringing Artemis back to life. But it was definitely before 2011 (and may even have been before 2003); so if you want Artemis on your pre-N52 Red Hood and the Outlaws team, go for it!

That said, Earth-Δ's window begins with Winick's Outsiders; I could see a variant of that team making s comeback with Red Hood as a member instead of Nightwing. Call them the Outlaws instead of the Outsiders to distance them from the more traditional Outsiders team (because, frankly, they had nothing in common with the “real” Outsiders); but you could include virtually the entire roster and you'd be set.

She's alive? Cool. It was for throwing in an amazon, more than because of our current Artemis, to be honest. Ha ha, just thinking, it would be a cast full of redheads (well, not Scarlet, but as I said, she wouldn't be a team member).

My main problem with Roy is that, if he has Lian again, I don't know it he would put himself in a high risk team like that again. Besides, didn't his story with the Outsiders end poorly?

[Dataweaver]

It didn't “end poorly” so much as it gradually mutated into something that didn't resemble where it started: first Checkmate and then Batman took control of the team; and when Batman took over, he drastically revamped the roster.

I'm mainly looking at Grace and Thunder as potential Outlaws, along with Red Hood, Scarlet, and Arsenal. The other original members of the Winick Outsiders were Shift (a Metamorpho clone), Indigo, and Jade; the first two are no more, and Jade doesn't actually feel right for the team — though Obsidian is a different matter.

As for Roy: I definitely agree that he would be reluctant, especially after what happened to Lian during his time with the Outsiders. But instead of leaving him out, build a story around it: what would motivate him to get involved with the team?

[Zaresh]

It didn't “end poorly” so much as it gradually mutated into something that didn't resemble where it started: first Checkmate and then Batman took control of the team; and when Batman took over, he drastically revamped the roster.

I'm mainly looking at Grace and Thunder as potential Outlaws, along with Red Hood, Scarlet, and Arsenal. The other original members of the Winick Outsiders were Shift (a Metamorpho clone), Indigo, and Jade; the first two are no more, and Jade doesn't actually feel right for the team — though Obsidian is a different matter.

As for Roy: I definitely agree that he would be reluctant, especially after what happened to Lian during his time with the Outsiders. But instead of leaving him out, build a story around it: what would motivate him to get involved with the team?

A lot of girls, and then two guys, well, three if you change Jade for Obsidian. Ha ha, I like it.

Building a story that could bring Roy into the team... Mmm, maybe not as much as making the team as it could be reaching the former team. If I recall correctly (and I think I do, because I did read it at some point in the past), Jason showed up briefly in Winick's Outsiders for bringing them some info that could prove someone else's innocence about... something (it's been a while since I read it ^_^U). We could play a similar card here. What if Jason finds some info about that team's previous members being hunted, and he reaches Roy (instead of Dick, because obvious reasons that spring from their recent story, and) because he's somehow reachable and the easiest target for the "bad guys" too; and from that point onwards, they both go and investigate who's behind, fight them, et cetera? Finding the potential new members along the way. And in the end of the story, Roy could decide to join them because... maybe he feels they need some more mature, or measured view? Not that he isn't the most mature person in the world, but if I remember right, he did settle down a lot and was mature enough to realize when he messed with someone, apologizing for his mistakes.

That way you have a very classic "assemble the team" story, with mystery elements that could go just fine with both Jason and Roy skills, and the chance of using any kind of villain, drawing one from any of the cast's previous history (individals, groups or organizations). They could be people in places the law cannot reach, or people from the gov, bad people using the law for their advantage, or something else that could picture the outlaws going after them like, well, outlaws.

[Dataweaver]

Oh: also, Morrison's Batman Inc. and Johns' GLC run would continue on Earth-Δ more or less in parallel with how they developed after Flashpoint. And in fact, I'd consider keeping Batman Inc. around as part of Earth-Δ's new “status quo”: the cutoff point here would be the death of Damian, which wouldn't happen on Earth-Δ.

And the various plotlines that Brightest Day set up, but were unceremoniously ditched when Flashpoint hit? Those happen on Earth-Δ.