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  1. #211
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    . I don't care business talk. So the brand isof no conern to me.
    .
    Uhm yeah I don't know what I am going to do with that. Sigh. Brand names matter and if character wasn't called Karate Kid some person would have an issue with it. Someone is going always be unhappy.

    Anyway if you guys want to see tokenism I guess fine I understand why. I see it tribute to greatest martial art flicks like Iron Monkey,Fearless, Once upon time in China and more. When I think great martial artist I see Bruce Lee, Shaolin Monk or someone with queue. It is hairstyle seen in Yellow Peril but it is also the hairstyle used in Martial Movies movies. And it is Martial art movies is where you see commonly now. Maybe for you guys went you stereotype I went, Okay that hairstyle I see that all the time in Martial flicks. Karate Kid is suppose to have mastered all the martial arts. I get why they went in this direction it is a look that also evokes Martial art master








    All these guys are the same character. The character has had many looks and has evolved through the many times they have rebooted. And it has happen again
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 11-17-2019 at 05:04 AM.

  2. #212
    Astonishing Member Overhazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Its not worse than Katana's New 52 look. Katana's New 52 design is atrocious. Let's remember a time when Katana had a much better design:



    But even then, there's a difference between wearing the insignia from the flag of one's home country on the one hand and being portrayed as the stereotypical trope of a Native American woman. This isn't the case of a Native artist portraying how women in modern Native American culture dress. This is the case of some white dude saying to himself "I need to make it clear that she's Native American" and in so doing, engage in a whole host of stereotypes.



    Jesus Christ. I feel like you've missed the point.



    But that is the point. China is a wide, diverse country just like the U.S. is. So, therefore, painting Chinese people with such broad strokes is like saying that a New Yorker is obsessed with Nascar and fried food and country music.




    Again, no, its not. His new look makes him look like a Chinaman stereotype. If you think that's a good look, then I think you need to do some reevaluation on how you see the world.



    Again, because a) it basically makes him look like an outdated stereotype and b) it conflates Chinese and Japanese culture.
    Lest we forget, Dawny's wings are no longer physical, but she has glowing "Spirit Wings" which makes it even worse.

  3. #213
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Uhm yeah I don't know what I am going to do with that. Sigh. Brand names matter and if character wasn't called Karate Kid some person would have an issue with it. Someone is going always be unhappy.

    Anyway if you guys want to see tokenism I guess fine I understand why. I see it tribute to greatest martial art flicks like Iron Monkey,Fearless, Once upon time in China and more. When I think great martial artist I see Bruce Lee, Shaolin Monk or someone with queue. It is hairstyle seen in Yellow Peril but it is also the hairstyle used in Martial Movies movies. And it is Martial art movies is where you see commonly now. Maybe for you guys went you stereotype I went, Okay that hairstyle I see that all the time in Martial flicks. Karate Kid is suppose to have mastered all the martial arts. I get why they went in this direction it is a look that also evokes Martial art master








    All these guys are the same character. The character has had many looks and has evolved through the many times they have rebooted. And it has happen again
    None of the images you provided conflate two cultures except for the last one maybe .third one has a traditional karate gi that's not stereotypical in nature . First one has a black belt. Those are all exceptable for karate kid from japan. Him mastering all matrial art doesn't make him chinese. Bruce wayne mastered martial arts does that make him chinese. No it doesn't. He is an American who sometimes wore a gi because he was a disciple and was an honorary part of the culture . And How will anyone have an issue with a different character with a different origin point? Wingchun kid won't be karate kid. Won't be conflated as one. Nobody will complain.

    Again, you perception doesn't mean anything. Martial arts≠ china. Asian continent is full of martial arts. Korea, thailand, japan, india.. Etc the list goes on and on. There are also various martial art forms in medieval Europe that are pretty old like asian forms as well. Anyways, it's pretty meangless. These guys never change. And the martial flicks you are talking about are primarily chinese or based on chinese culture. Those are great.But, how does that make it acceptable for a Japanese guy to be depicted as chinese?

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Actually it doesn't conflate Chinese and Japanese culture. We don't know the backstory of the character yet they could have changed the background of character to Chinese. We have seen something like this before in the Karate Kid Reboot with Jaden Smith. Jackie Chan does Kung Fu and it took place in China. They didn't name the movie "Kung Fu Kid" because Karate Kid is the brand.

    As somebody who watched gazillion old Kung fu flicks I instantly recognized they were going for that look that many of characters in those films had, Now the question is rebooted "Karate Kid" from place where they are forced to wear that hairstyle. It is not out of realm of belief in the future an empire has rise up that has some of the same old bad habits as the past. The actually story will reveal if it is stereotype/token or not. I see his look is direct tribute to Martial art/Kung fu flicks not tokenization.
    So, your argument is that since other franchises have pulled racist BS it in the past, it's okay to do it again?? No. It's not.

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Martial arts≠ china. Asian continent is full of martial arts. Korea, thailand, japan, india..
    Although a 'Karate Kid' who wore a mish-mash of stylistic items from all different Asian cultures (and was himself perhaps racially mixed), such as a Japanese gi, and a Chinese haircut, and the baggy pants worn by Indian practitioners of Kalaripiyattu and some Filipino Escrima sticks, could be an interesting nod to how he borrows from many different styles of martial arts, not 'just karate.'

    As it is, a formerly mixed race (half-Japanese, IIRC) 'Karate Kid' who is styled to resemble the infamous 'white guy pretending to be Chinese' from Kung Fu: the Legend Continues, is just boggling, and fits perfectly with the mentality that went into making Dawnstar look even more like she's dressed up in colors and fabrics that didn't even exist back in the day for a 'traditional harvest festival' for the tourists who don't know any better.

  6. #216
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    Although a 'Karate Kid' who wore a mish-mash of stylistic items from all different Asian cultures (and was himself perhaps racially mixed), such as a Japanese gi, and a Chinese haircut, and the baggy pants worn by Indian practitioners of Kalaripiyattu and some Filipino Escrima sticks, could be an interesting nod to how he borrows from many different styles of martial arts, not 'just karate.'

    As it is, a formerly mixed race (half-Japanese, IIRC) 'Karate Kid' who is styled to resemble the infamous 'white guy pretending to be Chinese' from Kung Fu: the Legend Continues, is just boggling, and fits perfectly with the mentality that went into making Dawnstar look even more like she's dressed up in colors and fabrics that didn't even exist back in the day for a 'traditional harvest festival' for the tourists who don't know any better.
    That would have been awesome. But, i would give more importance to the place of his origin(in story) and that culture. Since, he is karate kid. That is his selling point. That should be it. Kalaripayattu doesn't have baggy pants. It's called kaccha. It's normally tightened for sparring.it's sort of like a pair trousers without stitchings just tied together in particular fashion.

  7. #217
    Astonishing Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Keep in mind it's a thousand years in the future - who knows what culture is there? Hopefully Bendis has an idea that explains all this. But honestly, I doubt it.

    Also, Sook was the designer here - let's not put this all on Bendis.

  8. #218
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    Keep in mind it's a thousand years in the future - who knows what culture is there? Hopefully Bendis has an idea that explains all this. But honestly, I doubt it.

    Also, Sook was the designer here - let's not put this all on Bendis.
    But, bendis did ok it. He might have not noticed it. That's fine. I mean, i have seen bendis be very sensitive. The guy posted a parody superman dance number in an old bollywood flick.

  9. #219
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Those are great.But, how does that make it acceptable for a Japanese guy to be depicted as chinese?
    If you haven't noticed Lighting lad is Black and several other characters aren't their initial race. This is an reimagining of the concept this isn't a Japanese guy depicted as Chinese, The Karate Kid character is probably Chinese(or part chinense) in this setup that is fundamental understanding of reboot . Or do you think that Black person and white person is interchangeable? They are bunch of fables that told differently from country to country but people pretend that fiction can't be changed.

    The only reason today the character is called Karate Kid is because it is the brand awareness. The Martial art Kid or something else would be a better descriptor but then you have to build a new brand. They picked LoSH branding over doing something new. Anyways the intent of character is suppose to be the greatest Martial artist, So visual in one look that is what they are trying to do, Normal Bruce Lee is easiest visual to use to do but in this case they used something else. They kept "the Karate Kid brand" but trying to create instant visual the screams martial artist. I understand the intent and I understand why they are some people weary of the look. You guys can feel it is racist or stereotyping I don't see that as the intent. They can be more than one point of view that is right on a thing

    Anyways I am done if they had changed it to the Kung Fu Kid, Someone would have complained "Why didn't they use japanese Karate Kid that was fine nothing need to be changed ", They use name "Karate Kid" so it is understood it is meant to be same character with new set up and people complain " Oh the asian character are interchangable". Trying to please all old fans never work someone is going to get upset about something.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 11-18-2019 at 12:11 AM.

  10. #220
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    If you haven't noticed Lighting lad is Black and several other characters aren't their initial race. This is an reimagining of the concept this isn't a Japanese guy depicted as Chinese, The Karate Kid character is probably Chinese(or part chinense) in this setup that is fundamental understanding of reboot . Or do you think that Black person and white person is interchangeable? The only reason today the character is called Karate Kid is because it is the brand. The Martial art Kid or something else would be a better descriptor but then you have to build a new brand. They pick LoSH branding over doing something new. Anyways the intent of character is suppose to be the greatest Martial artist, So visual in one look that is what they are trying to do, Normal Bruce Lee is easiest visual to use to do but in this case they used something else. They kept "the Karate Kid brand" but trying to create instant visual the screams martial artist. I understand the intent and I understand why they are some people weary of the look. You guys can feel it is racist or stereotyping I don't see that as the intent. They can be more than one point of view that is right on a thing

    Anyways I am done if they had changed it to the Kung Fu Kid, Someone would have complained "Why didn't they use japanese Karate Kid that was fine nothing need to be changed ", They use name "Karate Kid" so it is understood it is meant to be same character with new set up and people complain " Oh the asian character are interchangable". Trying to please all old fans never work someone is going to get upset about something.
    so,what 'lighting lad' name has no cultural connotations. Its like superman. He can be from anywhere. 'Karate kid' does. It screams Japanese. Similarly, Captain america has a cultural connotations.as for him, white guy being turned black guy. Being black isn't a culture,generally.Two black people can have different cultures. There is not one element that points to his Japanese heritage if he is half. Old designs most of them did. DC has been doing this for like ever. If he is chinese entirely. He shouldn't be called 'karate kid' in the reboot. Because it's unethical. I don't care about the brand. I would have applauded wingchun kid or taichi kid. Heck! I do taichi myself. Martial arts normally has an ethos, a culture and a philosophy. They are not all the same. The intent is basically saying 'martial arts' ≠chinese culture. This is basically Hollywood stereotyping nonsense . That's entirely shitty way of thinking things. If the creatives don't have knowledge of chinese or Japanese culture. ask them. It's that simple.

    That's on them. And it's not the same character though. He is only in name. Once, you change culture of a character you change the character itself. The karate kid movie with jackie chan didn't have karate kid. I can't believe people are actually defending this kind of nonsense. I had let it go. Because i didn't think it's my place, still. Don't . I didn't intend to get involved Because people were pointing out the ignorance, rightfully . I only decided to intervene because of the defence.

  11. #221
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Anyways I am interested to see where this book goes, The first issue had entirely too many characters and too much explaining. When it is focus on something smaller it will get much better I hope.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 11-18-2019 at 03:49 AM. Reason: Moving on

  12. #222
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Really?

    Really?

    really?


    screams Japanese you say

    I am going to leave it alone because you are making up the rules as you go along, You are able to see that change from white to black has no ill intent but can't see that possible change from Japanese to Chinese has no ill intent.My Wife watches a Korean drama Boys over flowers, The Chinese remade the same exact show named Meteor Garden so that must mean they think Korean and Chinese are interchangeable right? The basic of reboot and reimagining is lost on you guys and you keep on bring up the previous history and Previous history is a rough outline not some hard immutable rule in reboot.

    The Karate Kid movie didn't have "a karate kid" but it was near retelling of original movie name Karate Kid. So instead calling it Kung Fu kid and nobody knowing what that was they called it Karate Kid. Dr Sleep is sequel the Shining , Dr Sleep is certified fresh on Rotten tomatoes with an 89% audience score. Dr Sleep underperformed at the box office because instead of having a name people recognize it is called Dr. Sleep. It would have easily done better if it was called "The Shining 2". You might not care about branding but branding is what let fans know what role they are playing in comic .They could have made Lighting lad and Karate Kid new characters but they intend for this to be LoSH comic and the names trigger what role they are playing in the comic. I don't see this tokenism this is more nod to old fanbase here look there is a name you recognize even if the character make up is not what you are use to seeing. Reboots are blend of old and new together . I am going to wait to see the full picture and story before making a judgement the elements seen could have a reason in the story.I will agree to disagree
    What are they wearing mate? Or are you only able to see race. Daniel was practically raised by a Japanese man. Even that girl was disciple of mr. Miyagi. That costume Val Armorr wears has a black belt over the white clothes.

    That's all it takes. A reference . He doesn't need to rock a pair gi all the time for him to be karate kid. I said the name screams the cultural , so it should be related to that culture. For example a guy named the blue kirin can only be Japanese . Would and should be associated with japan. A guy named ashura or naga or nagini can be from anywhere in asia. But the origin of it is indian. These are overlaps. These are the only exceptions. Just because something is business. Doesn't make it right. It isn't a nod. I don't see the old karate kid anywhere. Heck! I don't even see a belt that's tied together (you know the thing they wear to show their level) . All i see a chinese monk waist band. I only see a Chinese guy saying he is karate kid for some reason and i wonder if he even knows karate. Regardless what you may think. Asians aren't all the same ethnically, religiously, culturally.. Etc so on and so forth.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 11-18-2019 at 04:04 AM.

  13. #223
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k;4692173[B
    ]Keep in mind it's a thousand years in the future - who knows what culture is there? [/B]Hopefully Bendis has an idea that explains all this.
    ugh Thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Anyways I am interested to see where this book goes, The first issue had entirely too many characters and too much explaining,,
    right?? It's a lotta Intense emotions bout one appearance
    GrindrStone(D)

  14. #224
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Thousand years was such a sticking point. He shouldn't even be a karate kid.it's not. I have corrected a person in this very thread who thought neji, hinata.. Etc represent Japanese culture. They have their basis is chinese culture .
    People who like these sort of nonsense. Like them, but don't tell me how it's some grand jesture to acknowledge other cultures. Its not. Its tone deaf nonesense. Not even one reference of the Japanese culture in his design. Smh!

  15. #225
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Regardless what you may think. Asians aren't all the same ethnically, religiously, culturally.. Etc so on and so forth.

    Simple questions is character Val Armorr, Myg or new character? Could the character be called Karate Kid because they are paying respect to another character?
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 11-18-2019 at 05:04 AM.

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