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  1. #166
    Astonishing Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    The name "Karate Kid" stopped making sense when they said Val has mastered almost all forms of martial arts from many worlds. He should have a name that reflects that. Like ... "Ass-kicker Boy"

  2. #167
    Astonishing Member Overhazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    I was able to preview this and OH MY GOD, what did they do to Karate Kid?? First Dawny and now him? Are they just TRYING to be racist at this point??
    First Dawny, and now KK, Tyroc wasn't in this was he?

    Edit: Chinese, Japanese, most Asian cultures really, have a nasty history of being lumped together. Karate Kid, a guy who derives his name from a Japanese Martial art, wearing a stylized Gi, with a Chinese haircut, is contributing to that. Throwing in Dawny's redesign on top of that, it's starting to look a little tone deaf. If the Legion were as big as the X-Men right now, people would be heated.
    Last edited by Overhazard; 11-12-2019 at 03:58 PM.

  3. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Because having a guy called Karate Kid being a white dude is better ? How ?
    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    lol I know right? Like How ? I'd definitely be more confused seeing a white Dude going by the Karate Kid name +The Dawnstar chick looks cool AF
    So, just to be clear, are you making the assertion that being Asian is now a pre-requisite for anyone to be a master martial artist? Or, at the very least, are you saying Asian people are more predisposed to being martial arts masters than people of other backgrounds? I mean, think about that for a second.

    If so, that’s a very problematic assumption to be making. A person’s background doesn’t make them any more or less likely to engage in any specific behaviors. That’s pretty much like saying that since I’m an Arab, I must looooove riding camels.

    If it’s an aspect of Asian representation (or lack thereof) that makes you believe that this it’s somehow necessary to make Val look like a stereotype, um, DC actually has a lot of Asian characters that don’t rely on overly racist tropes to identify them as Asian. Lady Shiva, Cassandra Cain, Kimiyo Hoshi Doctor Light, Cheshire, Grace Choi, August General in Iron, etc. all instantly come to mind.

    Plus, as Jackalope kindly pointed out, karate is a martial art developed in JAPAN (or actually, it was developed in the Rykyu Kingdom in what is now called Okinawa), whereas the ponytail that Val is now rocking was something common among CHINESE men...in the 1800s. So, on top of everything, it also conflates Chinese and Japanese/Okinawan culture as if they’re the same thing. So, yeah...

    TRUTH!!! the"new" Karate Kid Only may only appear to be a stereotype if a person's mindset is already thinking about it going into the story
    No, it appears as a stereotype because it is. It’s that simple.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 11-12-2019 at 04:07 PM.

  4. #169
    Constant in Opal Nine Crocodile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caj View Post
    Wasn't there a Legion artist in the 70s (possibly Mike Grell) who began giving Karate Kid more Asian features in his drawings?
    I believe so. Especially when his origin got told (or re-told) and he became the son of a Japanese crimelord. By the time of the Waid/Kitson reboot and the animated series, it was more pronounced.

  5. #170
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Karate is an umbrella term for Martial Arts now and many people know many different kinds of Martial Arts. Or maybe he's s Chinese kid who learned Karate would that be Soo much more unbelievable then a white dude?
    No. No it is not. Karate is a distinct style. Like Muay Thai, Savate, Jiu-Jitsu, Tae-Kwon-Do, and the other numerous styles. It branches into various schools, yes. But all have a similar base in being Karate.

    Martial Arts is an umbrella term for "Martial Arts". Even Krav Maga would be a closer fit, since it utilizes various aspects of numerous styles into it.

  6. #171
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    It is one thing to make him look more asian, but to then make him look like such a blatent sterotype of the classic "chinaman" is just baffling. They go out of their way to "represent" by racebending some characters and then to just be so lazy with the like of Karate Kid and Dawnstar makes them look like they really only cared about making some characters black, and not to actually give good representaions of other races. This is all on Sook who looks like he needs to do a little research on other cultures and not just look at old movies.

  7. #172
    Astonishing Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    It is one thing to make him look more asian, but to then make him look like such a blatent sterotype of the classic "chinaman" is just baffling. They go out of their way to "represent" by racebending some characters and then to just be so lazy with the like of Karate Kid and Dawnstar makes them look like they really only cared about making some characters black, and not to actually give good representaions of other races. This is all on Sook who looks like he needs to do a little research on other cultures and not just look at old movies.
    The real problem with that hairstyle is that it used to be mandated by the emperor or you'd be faced with execution. (and it was done by the ...1930's?) From what I understand, it was a sign of an oppressive time that really makes no sense unless Bendis has a specific reason for having KK wear his hair like that. Maybe Val just saw old "karate" movies and had no idea what the hairstyle meant. (like how some people will wear a Che shirt or X hat with no idea what they mean)

  8. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Karate is an umbrella term for Martial Arts now and many people know many different kinds of Martial Arts. Or maybe he's s Chinese kid who learned Karate would that be Soo much more unbelievable than a white dude?
    This statement is so incredibly tone-deaf.

    1) Karate is not an umbrella term for all different kinds of martial arts. It just isn't. And treating it as such is, well, rather offensive.

    2) Him being a Chinese person who learned karate is just as likely as him being a white American who learned karate. Again, nobody's behaviors or patterns are predetermined by their ethnic heritage. Believing that is the textbook definition of prejudice.

  9. #174
    Fantastic Member NeathBlue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    This statement is so incredibly tone-deaf.

    1) Karate is not an umbrella term for all different kinds of martial arts. It just isn't. And treating it as such is, well, rather offensive.

    2) Him being a Chinese person who learned karate is just as likely as him being a white American who learned karate. Again, nobody's behaviors or patterns are predetermined by their ethnic heritage. Believing that is the textbook definition of prejudice.

    In fairness to his statement, in the 1970ís when martial arts really started taking off in Europe and the USA, almost all martial arts were either called in the media karate or Kung Fu regardless of which particular form they were.
    People were only aware of Bruce Lee doing karate or David Carradineís character doing Kung Fu, hence it became a kind of generic name.
    If the Karate Kid character had been called something like the Kendo Kid, people would have been saying WTF is that lol.

  10. #175
    Constant in Opal Nine Crocodile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeathBlue View Post
    In fairness to his statement, in the 1970’s when martial arts really started taking off in Europe and the USA, almost all martial arts were either called in the media karate or Kung Fu regardless of which particular form they were.
    People were only aware of Bruce Lee doing karate or David Carradine’s character doing Kung Fu, hence it became a kind of generic name.
    If the Karate Kid character had been called something like the Kendo Kid, people would have been saying WTF is that lol.
    This holds for the '60s as well, when Karate Kid was created. I don't know if DC ever considered changing it even when it stopped being so trendy. Maybe they thought the alliteration made it memorable. Maybe they couldn't think of anything better. Maybe they thought LSH fans would get ticked off if they tried.

    Anyway, here's something that backs up what you're saying:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karate

  11. #176
    Fantastic Member NeathBlue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nine Crocodile View Post
    This holds for the '60s as well, when Karate Kid was created. I don't know if DC ever considered changing it even when it stopped being so trendy. Maybe they thought the alliteration made it memorable. Maybe they couldn't think of anything better. Maybe they thought LSH fans would get ticked off if they tried.

    Anyway, here's something that backs up what you're saying:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karate
    Going back to the 60’s, you had the Dick Tracy cartoon with the character ju jutsu, and I think almost everyone who would have watched it would have thought that was a normal name for a person and he was doing karate.
    People back then had never heard of these things before, it’s very easy for people today to look back and be offended by it all, but the worlds a lot smaller today and people are better educated on subjects.

  12. #177
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powertool View Post
    You and very few other people, I'm afraid. Ever since The Karate Kid came out in theaters in 1984 and Daniel-san became a pop culture icon, the wide majority of people will think about the character played by Ralph Macchio and be absolutely ready to accept that a White guy has -le gasp!- dared to dedicate his life to learning Asian martial arts.
    Uh that movie came out 35 years ago. Since then it's become a lil tactless to slap on cultural attributes to someone not traditionally of that culture. So seeing white dude performing Martial Arts going by Karate Kid is eyerollingly bad.. There's numerous examples of Asian culture presented in with a white face. Audiences are obviously used to. It'd be a welcome change that for once East Asian culture not get whitewashed
    Quote Originally Posted by Overhazard View Post
    First Dawny, and now KK, Tyroc wasn't in this was he?

    Edit: Chinese, Japanese, most Asian cultures really, have a nasty history of being lumped together. Karate Kid, a guy who derives his name from a Japanese Martial art, wearing a stylized Gi, with a Chinese haircut, is contributing to that. Throwing in Dawny's redesign on top of that, it's starting to look a little tone deaf. If the Legion were as big as the X-Men right now, people would be heated.
    How is keeping the character white any better? These guys are from a thousand years into the Future Right? Maybe there's a wave of Pan East Asian Nationalism and their cultures have become more blended. Orrr maybe he's of mixed heritage and wants to rep all facet's of his background?
    And how is Dawnstars redesign tone deaf? How is her old costume less Native American than her new one? At least she has pants and is not just in a stripper-esque bathing suit lol actually her redesign is more appropriate as turquoise was an important part of the characters ethnic history

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    So, just to be clear, are you making the assertion that being Asian is now a pre-requisite for anyone to be a master martial artist?
    uh no dude.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    If so, thatís a very problematic assumption to be making. A personís background doesnít make them any more or less likely to engage in any specific behaviors. Thatís pretty much like saying that since Iím an Arab, I must looooove riding camels.
    im not saying it's because of his ethnicity but where he grew up. If it's in East Asia...yeah he's more likely to be exposed to Martial Arts than someone who grew up in Wales
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  13. #178
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Double post
    Last edited by BroHomo; 11-13-2019 at 06:48 AM.
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  14. #179
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    If it’s an aspect of Asian representation (or lack thereof) that makes you believe that this it’s somehow necessary to make Val look like a stereotype, um, DC actually has a lot of Asian characters that don’t rely on overly racist tropes to identify them as Asian. Lady Shiva, Cassandra Cain, Kimiyo Hoshi Doctor Light, Cheshire, Grace Choi, August General in Iron, etc. all instantly come to mind.
    How's can he be a stereotype when there's next to nothing to Know about this characters history? You're assuming hell be a stereotype, cause I guess minorites can't be associated with ANYTHING that might be cultural exclusive to them or they'll be seen as stereotypes??? + There's like one Asian male hero ...the shrinking guy the next one appears a thousand years later #winning

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Plus, as Jackalope kindly pointed out, karate is a martial art developed in JAPAN (or actually, it was developed in the Rykyu Kingdom in what is now called Okinawa), whereas the ponytail that Val is now rocking was something common among CHINESE men...in the 1800s. So, on top of everything, it also conflates Chinese and Japanese/Okinawan culture as if they’re the same thing. So, yeah...
    No, it appears as a stereotype because it is. It’s that simple.
    Again him being a 'stereotype' is your opinion... We have no backstory on this char right? So whose to say he's rocking that style cause he wants to or are you saying Japanese people CANT have a ponytail and rock a gi??
    It could be he's of mixed East Asian ancestry and wants to rep all facet's of his background. Its still an upgrade from having yet another hijacking of East Asian sensibilities.
    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    X hat with no idea what they mean)
    X? X-Men?
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    This statement is so incredibly tone-deaf.

    1) Karate is not an umbrella term for all different kinds of martial arts. It just isn't. And treating it as such is, well, rather offensive.
    2) Him being a Chinese person who learned karate is just as likely as him being a white American who learned karate. Again, nobody's behaviors or patterns are predetermined by their ethnic heritage. Believing that is the textbook definition of prejudice.
    Is it really that tone deaf?
    1.) lol okay I honestly don't know much about Karate. So my bad for mixing up 'Martial Arts' with 'Karate' But it is a broad term for MA in Japan. Apparently The Karate Kid character who is a master of all Martial Arts has been offending you since the jump :/
    2.) Again I'm not saying an Asian person is more likely to know Martial Arts cause they're Asian but because of where they live. Just like it's more likely a person in Hawaii learning how to surf than a person in Alaska. Quick look and I found 3.2 million Americans participate in Martial Arts while Martial Art participation is somewhere around 100 million worldwide. Soooo i figure theres a slightly higher chance of a person of ANY ethnicity to learn Martial Arts if they grew up in East Asia
    Last edited by BroHomo; 11-13-2019 at 01:08 AM. Reason: Kiiiiinda stonD my bad if I'm not catching any grammar subtleties
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  15. #180
    Old school comic book fan WestPhillyPunisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Both Karate Kid and Dawnstar now look like blatant racist stereotypes of a Chinese man from 1885 and a Native American woman, respectively.

    This is what Val used to look like:



    This is what he looks like now:



    Like, it plays right into the "perpetual foreigner/Fu Manchu" stereotype. How is this being published in 2019?
    Hmmm! Val looks like Caine from Kung Fu as a teenager.
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