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  1. #376
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Just because they don't show gore and gratuitous sex doesn't mean that the stories aren't written with adults in mind. Again, many of the stories touch on themes that would kind of go over a child's head. Themes like the line between heroism and brutality (Action 775), like the responsibility that comes with being someone like Superman, and like the fact that even immense power doesn't mean you can do everything (Peace on Earth). Why don't you go poll the average age of Superman readers? I'm sure you'll find that they skew toward adults.



    DC has content that they market to kids. But the main DC universe comics have long skewed toward more comprehensive storytelling that is more in line with mature readers. Its not because there's gratuitous content, it's because the format and themes are more in line with things adults appreciate. And that's a good thing. Things like the MCU wouldn't have been possible if comics hadn't moved in that direction. Tell me, is the MCU just for kids?



    No, it's not because every time Superman flies into a country, he's not laying claim to a part of it. He doesn't fly into Iran and say "Tehran is mine now." Plus, by your logic, many immigrants would be deemed "enemies of the state."



    No, you haven't because your explanation STILL doesn't make sense. Again, the U.S. government would NOT BE OKAY with Metropolis just up and leaving. In no world would that just be accepted. What world do you live in?? A city that is part of a larger country doesn't just get to decide everything that happens to it by virtue of it being part of that larger country.

    1) If you pay attention to any historical issue, you will see there's a long history of local governments trying to fight the federal government on a lot of things and losing. Many southern states and cities tried to cling to Jim Crow during the Civil Rights era only for those laws to be struck down.

    2) Regional commerce would absolutely be disrupted for obvious reasons. A major commercial hub literally changing location would tend to dirupt commercial routes.

    3) No matter how much clout you think Superman has, the U.S. no doubt has more and would be able to block both recognition by other countries and UN membership



    Oh my god, YES HE DOES!! Clark is still a citizen of this country, subject to laws just like all of us. He doesn't go out and murder people who he thinks are bad, does he? Ergo, he cares about a society with law and order. There's a difference between wanting a fair society and being a plain anarchist.


    Ok, why the facepalm mates. Tell me you weren't one of the people advocating for the trunks?i haven't said anything that's factually wrong


    Yeah! Right, it can be said, it's for 13 or 15 year olds but that ain't mature, mate. It's like saying shonen is for mature audiences. Only ignorant people would say that, shonen is boy's manga. It's for boys, not men though men can read it. Comics are like that. Gratuitous sex or violence isn't what i am talking about. Have you read berserk or seinen manga? Have you atleast played darks souls? It's inpired by berserk. I would say, watchmen is mature.Not monthly comics, they aren't mature. Not even close. The storylines you mentioned like pornoshoot aren't mature but stupid. Action comics 775 isn't mature. It's for what? 13 to 17 year old demographic. Peace on earth too,but i would say it can be read by younger kids of 10.

    No, when was the last a superman comic book was written with kids in mind,but can be enjoyable by everyone. And i am not speaking currently. Currently there are. No, mcu is for teens. I don't think it's mature. Hello! Incredibles is for kids. But, it can be watched by anyone. ET, iron giant.. Etc the list is long. This notion stories that are written with kids on the mind can't appeal to everyone is false. Superman is such a character. People have just shoved him into a space where he isn't needed. Heck! Superman smashes the klan is treat even for adults. Teens want more edge and angst other things. Superman ain't going to be that.kids want imagination, heart, a good tought... Etc. Superman is all of that. He can't do "i am the best at what i do. And what i do isn't nice."

    Laying claim or not. Doesn't matter. The charges are still the same. He is effectively the states enemy. Your claim that superman isn't that level or scale a criminal is false. Immigrants that cross borders without permission are effectively criminals by the states standards. But they might not be treated harshly because of conventions and state policy. It's also a different deal, superman is also security threat. He is effectively a living weapon.
    So? If they are'nt okay. They aren't okay. Why should it matter to the citizens of the city? It would just be disappointing. Continuing as part of the US would have been something better. But, if US government doesn't care for it. Then that's on them.
    1)they didn't have freaking superman. The states that wanted liberty were because they wanted to practice slavery, racial segregation.. Etc which is against the ethos of the US. They weren't fighting for a just cause. Superman and citizens of Metropolis aren't fighting against the ethos or against even the constitution's principles. They are fighting for the ethos of it. If the federal government is against liberty and pursuit of happiness. If they are against the choice and right of individuals to a better life. Then its on them. Superman and people of Metropolis would kick US government's ass and make them realise their folly.
    2)Routes won't have to change. Clark has brainiac tech, teleportation fields, levitation tech.. Etc all is at the city's disposal.
    3)us government can try miserably for a while and then give up. You do know that US has enemies. They would atleast go with Metropolis just to spite US. But, i don't think superman really would go for siding with any country. He would be neutral .the US might be permanent member. But that wouldn't mean a damn if superman is the opposition. There would be enough pressure building. If the US had chosen war then more so. I don't think US would want to go through all the trouble and only to get embarrassed at the end. And for what? a small city. It's not like they can take on Superman who is protecting something with all his might. He is the most powerful being on the planet. He has the most advanced tech in the world. He would have allies. Even, if lex joins the opposition. Clark would still prevail.

    Sure, if you say so. But, i don't think so. Vigilante superman fights for the weak to get strong and ideals he was raised with. Not laws. Laws are just tools to serve justice. If it doesn't. Superman wouldn't care for such laws. As for social order, order based on tyranny will be rejected. Otherwise, superman works for social order. He doesn't Kill because of morality, not because of law or fear of violent repercussions, It is the same for luffy. There is a difference between that and what you are suggesting . An agent of Anarchy, like luffy fits clark quite nicely. Bruce would be proud . I mean, he isn't controlling superman.

    The champion of the oppressed aka the man of action vs the man who will be king of the pirates, monkey d luffy.The straw hat and s both are passed down legacy. They have a meaning.originally superman was the man of action and of few words, like luffy.
    "Destiny, Fate, Dreams, These unstoppable ideals are held deep in the heart of man; as long as there are people who seek freedom in this life; these things shall not vanish from the earth" - gold roger
    Superman is a man who breaks chains. But, chooses to not break some because of love, friendship, morality, limitations... Etc

    I just realised this, seems early similar to moses's story. Go figure! Why didn't i think of it sooner? It is moses's story. I am not a Christian, jew or Islamic. That must have been why i didn't see it earlier. Wow! This is some kind of wierd coincidence. I guess, the original characterisation of superman stuck in my head isn't wrong.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 01-18-2020 at 12:38 AM.

  2. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Ok, why the facepalm mates. Tell me you weren't one of the people advocating for the trunks?i haven't said anything that's factually wrong
    Well, yeah, you have actually.

    Yeah! Right, it can be said, it's for 13 or 15 year olds but that ain't mature, mate. It's like saying shonen is for mature audiences. Only ignorant people would say that, shonen is boy's manga. It's for boys, not men though men can read it. Comics are like that. Gratuitous sex or violence isn't what i am talking about. Have you read berserk or seinen manga? Have you atleast played darks souls? It's inpired by berserk. I would say, watchmen is mature.Not monthly comics, they aren't mature. Not even close. The storylines you mentioned like pornoshoot aren't mature but stupid. Action comics 775 isn't mature. It's for what? 13 to 17 year old demographic. Peace on earth too,but i would say it can be read by younger kids of 10.
    Yeah because Killing Joke is so safe for children. Not to mention that things like Damian: Son of Batman, Nightwing Annual #2, Teen Titans #35, all contain pretty graphic hook up scenes that really wouldn't be safe for kids...but that's not really the point. Nobody said that content for kids couldn't be enjoyed by adults. What I'm saying is that the content DC tends to put out appeals to adults and therefore, shouldn't be pigeonholed into being written like a children's book: simplistic, with no real-world consequences for actions that would in reality spark a backlash.

    No, mcu is for teens. I don't think it's mature.
    Exactly. The MCU appeals to everyone. But it's not written for children. That's the point. It's stories are "realistic" in the context of that world.

    Laying claim or not. Doesn't matter. The charges are still the same. He is effectively the states enemy. Your claim that superman isn't that level or scale a criminal is false.
    Again, yes it does matter. The charges are not the same. What you are saying is factually false. One scenario is Superman flying over a border with no hostile intent toward that government. The other is annexation of sovereign territory, which is inherently hostile.

    Immigrants that cross borders without permission are effectively criminals by the states standards. But they might not be treated harshly because of conventions and state policy. It's also a different deal, superman is also security threat. He is effectively a living weapon.
    Actually, that's factually false. At least in the U.S. immigrations enforcement is a civil matter, not a criminal one. Crossing the border is therefore a civil offense, not a criminal offense.

    So? If they are'nt okay. They aren't okay. Why should it matter to the citizens of the city? It would just be disappointing. Continuing as part of the US would have been something better. But, if US government doesn't care for it. Then that's on them.
    Dude, again, just the idea of this statement is naive at best, cruel at worst. You're saying the government should just be okay with one of their major commercial hubs flying off as if it has no impact on the region. You're also saying that the citizens of Metropolis shouldn't care about the impact they have on other peoples' lives.

    1)they didn't have freaking superman. The states that wanted liberty were because they wanted to practice slavery, racial segregation.. Etc which is against the ethos of the US. They weren't fighting for a just cause. Superman and citizens of Metropolis aren't fighting against the ethos or against even the constitution's principles. They are fighting for the ethos of it. If the federal government is against liberty and pursuit of happiness. If they are against the choice and right of individuals to a better life. Then its on them. Superman and people of Metropolis would kick US government's ass and make them realise their folly.
    Again, that's not how things work in real life. The "just cause" you're arguing for isn't really all that tangible or definable. Fighting for equality of all persons under the law is not the same as chasing some obtuse concept of futurism and very possibly hurting people in the process. Liberty is not the ability to do whatever you want no matter who gets hurt. Liberty is about being free from unreasonable incursions on you ability of self-determination.

    2)Routes won't have to change. Clark has brainiac tech, teleportation fields, levitation tech.. Etc all is at the city's disposal.
    Yeah, they would be affected and would likely suffer hardship for the sake of "the future."

    3)us government can try miserably for a while and then give up. You do know that US has enemies. They would atleast go with Metropolis just to spite US. But, i don't think superman really would go for siding with any country. He would be neutral .the US might be permanent member. But that wouldn't mean a damn if superman is the opposition. There would be enough pressure building. If the US had chosen war then more so. I don't think US would want to go through all the trouble and only to get embarrassed at the end. And for what? a small city. It's not like they can take on Superman who is protecting something with all his might. He is the most powerful being on the planet. He has the most advanced tech in the world. He would have allies. Even, if lex joins the opposition. Clark would still prevail.
    All they'd need is Kryptonite, dude. Also, you don't realize the strength and influence of the U.S. in diplomatic relations, do you?

  3. #378
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Well, yeah, you have actually.



    Yeah because Killing Joke is so safe for children. Not to mention that things like Damian: Son of Batman, Nightwing Annual #2, Teen Titans #35, all contain pretty graphic hook up scenes that really wouldn't be safe for kids...but that's not really the point. Nobody said that content for kids couldn't be enjoyed by adults. What I'm saying is that the content DC tends to put out appeals to adults and therefore, shouldn't be pigeonholed into being written like a children's book: simplistic, with no real-world consequences for actions that would in reality spark a backlash.



    Exactly. The MCU appeals to everyone. But it's not written for children. That's the point. It's stories are "realistic" in the context of that world.



    Again, yes it does matter. The charges are not the same. What you are saying is factually false. One scenario is Superman flying over a border with no hostile intent toward that government. The other is annexation of sovereign territory, which is inherently hostile.



    Actually, that's factually false. At least in the U.S. immigrations enforcement is a civil matter, not a criminal one. Crossing the border is therefore a civil offense, not a criminal offense.



    Dude, again, just the idea of this statement is naive at best, cruel at worst. You're saying the government should just be okay with one of their major commercial hubs flying off as if it has no impact on the region. You're also saying that the citizens of Metropolis shouldn't care about the impact they have on other peoples' lives.



    Again, that's not how things work in real life. The "just cause" you're arguing for isn't really all that tangible or definable. Fighting for equality of all persons under the law is not the same as chasing some obtuse concept of futurism and very possibly hurting people in the process. Liberty is not the ability to do whatever you want no matter who gets hurt. Liberty is about being free from unreasonable incursions on you ability of self-determination.



    Yeah, they would be affected and would likely suffer hardship for the sake of "the future."



    All they'd need is Kryptonite, dude. Also, you don't realize the strength and influence of the U.S. in diplomatic relations, do you?
    Where? Dick grayson traditionally wear's an acrobatic flamboyant agile costume it early like that of a trapeze artist. Superman wears a strongman outfit like phantom.
    Ehm! Those aren't superman's stories. My point is superman hasn't been able to thrive because the company took him from his target audience. I don't care what they do with other characters That were created for older teen demographics. Superman comic should have kids in mind that can be fun for everyone , most of the time. The stories that don't should be the rarity. Like scooby doo getting chased by real monsters.as for consequences, right!! As if superman faced consequences in postcrisis. ET and the iron giant didn't have consequences or anything that was deep. Get outta here with that.

    MCU is simplistic mate. It goes for younger teen , but enjoyed by everyone . It isn't targeted for older teens and adults. Realistic are you kidding me. It's as crazy as the silverage stories. I would rather superman compared steven speilberg movie like ET, though.

    No, intent of a the crosser is of no consequence. He does it once, its just questioning. If he does it twice or thrice. He is saying, he doesn't give a damn about the sovereignity of that state. Ergo would treated with extreme prejudice. The same thing.

    I have said, its upto state policy and convention.

    Effectively, yes and no. US government only has the right to moniter if it does impact other lives and intervene if it does. Otherwise, Metropolis can flyoff. Have you seen astroboy? The city flys around having no problem with anyone.

    Superman works in real life. When has that ever been an argument for superman? Obtuse? Instory clark has even made a prototype and made it tangible. That is all that matters tangibility in story. US government will be curtailing that very liberty you just defined. Since, they aren't affecting anyone adversely.

    Nope! Any and all, transportation that is to and fro enter the city will be teleported or beamed up to the city from when they reach the place where city stood and back.That's misery?? . Please, its better than the things they already go through.

    Are kidding me? Kryptonite. A piece of rock. Dude, superman doesn't plan for that thing ever. Because he doesn't want others to feel scared or disadvantaged. Clark can get immune, if he wants to. He can even create tech that neutralises kryptonite radiation. He had done it. There was a time when kryptonite just became rock.I do mate. But, superman is the opponent. That would be nowhere close to be enough. Not, that clark would need them. You think china, russia.. Etc would side with US. They would be against or sit quietly . Same goes for eu. Nobody will want to fight against the f--ing superman for something trivial . Most of them would view it as internal US problem. That means, US will be on their own. He would and could kick them to mars and back at the same time protect the city with impenetrable forcefield. Even if does manages to find some allies it wouldn't be enough . It would be like bringing a sword to a gun fight.They have no chance.if the xmen can force the UN to declare their country sovereign. Superman would be able to do that pretty easily.The only chance they have is their meta population. I think they would rather join clark in Metropolis than stand with US. A city that doesn't treat them like freaks.JL wouldn't intervene. Clarl would be in the right. Beating up US army had unfortunately became chore for superman. But, that happens most of the time. Clark had to take them on with a superalien on their side and still won. They have no chance alone.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 01-17-2020 at 09:50 PM.

  4. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Where? Dick grayson traditionally wear's an acrobatic flamboyant agile costume it early like that of a trapeze artist. Superman wears a strongman outfit like phantom.
    A lot of places. Also, NOBODY is talking about the outfits. Why are you bringing that up?

    Ehm! Those aren't superman's stories. My point is superman hasn't been able to thrive because the company took him from his target audience. I don't care what they do with other characters That were created for older teen demographics. Superman comic should have kids in mind that can be fun for everyone , most of the time. The stories that don't should be the rarity. Like scooby doo getting chased by real monsters.as for consequences, right!! As if superman faced consequences in postcrisis. ET and the iron giant didn't have consequences or anything that was deep. Get outta here with that.
    Except again for the Superman comic I mentioned that gave us Lois and Clark literally banging one out. Plus, I hate to break it to you, but most kids aren't reading comics anymore. That's not just the case for Superman. Its the same thing for Batman and Spider-Man. Its across the board. Kids are now more into video games and other forms of entertainment. Its just a sad fact. So characters like Superman have only been able to survive by casting a wide net, i.e. being accessible to audiences other than just children.

    MCU is simplistic mate. It goes for younger teen , but enjoyed by everyone . It isn't targeted for older teens and adults. Realistic are you kidding me. It's as crazy as the silverage stories. I would rather superman compared steven speilberg movie like ET, though.
    Yeah, because Captain America: Civil War was soooooo crazy and Silver Age. [/sarcasm]

    No, intent of a the crosser is of no consequence. He does it once, its just questioning. If he does it twice or thrice. He is saying, he doesn't give a damn about the sovereignity of that state. Ergo would treated with extreme prejudice. The same thing.
    Actually, it does. Plus, its not just the intent, its the basic action itself. Again, Superman doesn't lay claim to territory when he crosses a border.

    Effectively, yes and no. US government only has the right to moniter if it does impact other lives and intervene if it does. Otherwise, Metropolis can flyoff. Have you seen astroboy? The city flys around having no problem with anyone.
    I would cite Astroboy as an authority here. And no, the U.S. government has the right to prevent it if there is a strong likelihood that it will impact other peoples' lives.

    Superman works in real life. When has that ever been an argument for superman? Obtuse? Instory clark has even made a prototype and made it tangible. That is all that matters tangibility in story.
    What are you even trying to say here?

    US government will be curtailing that very liberty you just defined. Since, they aren't affecting anyone adversely.
    Te key word is UNREASONABLE. Not letting one of your major cities just fly off is actually very reasonable.

    Nope! Any and all, transportation that is to and fro enter the city will be teleported or beamed up to the city from when they reach the place where city stood and back.That's misery?? . Please, its better than the things they already go through.
    That's some heavy conjecture there.

    Are kidding me? Kryptonite. A piece of rock. Dude, superman doesn't plan for that thing ever. Because he doesn't want others to feel scared or disadvantaged. Clark can get immune, if he wants to. He can even create tech that neutralises kryptonite radiation. He had done it.
    Really? Cuz Kryptonite has worked pretty well against him in the past.

    I do mate. But, superman is the opponent. That would be nowhere close to be enough. Not, that clark would need them. You think china, russia.. Etc would side with US. They would be against or sit quietly.
    Actually, they probably would side with the U.S. since they wouldn't want the precedent set that a city can just declare independence.

    Same goes for eu. Nobody will want to fight against the f--ing superman for something trivial . Most of them would view it as internal US problem. That means, US will be on their own. He would and could kick them to mars and back at the same time protect the city with impenetrable forcefield. Even if does manages to find some allies it wouldn't be enough . It would be like bringing a sword to a gun fight.They have no chance.if the xmen can force the UN to declare their country sovereign. Superman would be able to do that pretty easily.The only chance they have is their meta population. I think they would rather join clark in Metropolis than stand with US. A city that doesn't treat them like freaks.JL wouldn't intervene. Clarl would be in the right. Beating up US army had unfortunately became chore for superman. But, that happens most of the time. Clark had to take them on with a superalien on their side and still won. They have no chance alone.
    Again, it wouldn't be an "internal problem" because no country would want to set the precedent that a city can just leave. This statement reeks of naiveté.

    Also, the X-Men is a completely different scenario, since they didn't TAKE A U.S. CITY WITH THEM. If the X-Men had set up shop in New York City and declared that that was now their nation and the mutant homeland, you can bet the UN wouldn't be recognizing it.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 01-18-2020 at 08:40 AM.

  5. #380
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    A lot of places. Also, NOBODY is talking about the outfits. Why are you bringing that up?



    Except again for the Superman comic I mentioned that gave us Lois and Clark literally banging one out. Plus, I hate to break it to you, but most kids aren't reading comics anymore. That's not just the case for Superman. Its the same thing for Batman and Spider-Man. Its across the board. Kids are now more into video games and other forms of entertainment. Its just a sad fact. So characters like Superman have only been able to survive by casting a wide net, i.e. being accessible to audiences other than just children.



    Yeah, because Captain America: Civil War was soooooo crazy and Silver Age. [/sarcasm]



    Actually, it does. Plus, its not just the intent, its the basic action itself. Again, Superman doesn't lay claim to territory when he crosses a border.



    I would cite Astroboy as an authority here. And no, the U.S. government has the right to prevent it if there is a strong likelihood that it will impact other peoples' lives.



    What are you even trying to say here?



    Te key word is UNREASONABLE. Not letting one of your major cities just fly off is actually very reasonable.



    That's some heavy conjecture there.



    Really? Cuz Kryptonite has worked pretty well against him in the past.

    I do mate. But, superman is the opponent. That would be nowhere close to be enough. Not, that clark would need them. You think china, russia.. Etc would side with US. They would be against or sit quietly.
    Actually, they probably would side with the U.S. since they wouldn't want the precedent set that a city can just declare independence.


    Again, it wouldn't be an "internal problem" because no country would want to set the precedent that a city can just leave. This statement reeks of naiveté.

    Also, the X-Men is a completely different scenario, since they didn't TAKE A U.S. CITY WITH THEM. If the X-Men had set up shop in New York City and declared that that was now their nation and the mutant homeland, you can bet the UN wouldn't be recognizing it.[/QUOTE]

    A lot of places, isn't specific. Fine, if you don't want to talk about it. But, i am was only pointing out that since you said he was an alien strongman. Superman hasn't been a real strongman or athlete in comics for a long-long time. He is just takes sun protein juice and gets stronger. Even, goku wouldn't want to fight him. What's the point? Where is the honor? The guy cheats to get strong. A strong man should feel like it.

    Right, one comic issue with clois doing it. Which issue? I haven't found any that was that explicit . Also, Doesn't make superman a character for mature audiences. If needed be it could be cut it wouldn't matter to the story. There are stories that require the r-rating.That can't be done in the pg13 environment.Superman is'nt that type of character. He will never be. True,but there is growing audience for young adult stuff and mangas. In fact, their sales are more than straight superhero comics.superhero market is shrinking. Manga and youngadult market meanwhile is growing.
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/robsalkowitz/2019/10/08/surprising-new-data-shows-comic-readers-are-leaving-superheroes-behind/?fbclid=IwAR13XYmgRe5yi_zEmgdsxs9lbXVbbLpAt3RWWQwD 4nAOXBJUmz_6xDTOpwU#54df1cbc4d68[

    Well Yeah! Civil war was silverage. It certainly wasn't the 90s edge storyline. It had the fun and the goofiness all things connected to silverage. Plus, feige himself has said MCU is influenced heavily by donner superman. Donner superman is influenced by precrisis kal el. As for the serious parts those things happened in silverage, too.

    His action proves he doesn't care for value the boundary or states sovereignity. I don't see the difference. Stopping/restricting air space usage is standard procedure. You can't cross a border without permission again and again. He will be branded security threat and blown to kingdom come. It is the same. You can believe what you want. If any country representative decides to fly over any other country again and again without permission. They will be dealt with.

    Yes, i never said they didn't. But since, clark has proven it won't. He made a prototype . They don't have any right. Astroboy was written by someone who is an admirer and a fan of superman. Astroboy has homages to superman. Osamu tezuka was the honorary chairman of Japan's Superman Fan Club.He is relevant. Astroboy like iron giant will always be tied to superman.

    No, conjecture. Pure, "cause he's superman" scifi logic.
    As said, cuz superman let it.batman beats superman. Cuz superman doesn't care. That's the best.i knew that was coming a mile away. Superman would have seen it coming from across the universe. Dude! Superman can easily create deals with these countries promising to not intervene in their personal matters directly as a sanctioned person by the Metropolis citizens. Its big price but it will have to be paid for the sake of the people he has to protect. They would also want the future tech deals from the city of tomorrow. Ofcourse, clark would never give out any weapons. But, medicines and other things. Setting their uneasiness at rest. They would just sit quietly. They wouldn't have any other options. A Fight with superman even if they allied with US would be pointless for them. Since, they hate US and not particularly fond of superman. They would have them dish it out. Clark would prefer it that way. And these countries know any separatist movement in their country has no supermen for their support. They wouldn't worry about it succeeding.

    No, they didn't take land. They made teleporters in The US that too without permission. They stole a percentage of their civilians. That's similar to land. Nah! I see the samething happening in the case of shopping mall in the Newyork. UN is basically ineffectual most of the time. Their track record is pretty weak. The only reasons secession movements are thwarted is because of strong arming of larger nations. Superman, takes that out of the picture and into the trashcan, in this particular case. Like i said, bullying a bully is what clark does best.That might not be very good solution. But, clark does do that. The story feels pretty interesting. Man! I can't believe it actually paralleled moses.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 01-18-2020 at 12:47 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    A lot of places, isn't specific. Fine, if you don't want to talk about it. But, i am was only pointing out that since you said he was an alien strongman. Superman hasn't been a real strongman or athlete in comics for a long-long time. He is just takes sun protein juice and gets stronger. Even, goku wouldn't want to fight him. What's the point? Where is the honor? The guy cheats to get strong. A strong man should feel like it.
    I pointed out in my response where you were factually wrong. And again, NOBODY is talking about this. Why are you?

    Right, one comic issue with clois doing it. Which issue? I haven't found any that was that explicit.
    Action Comics #1004

    Also, Doesn't make superman a character for mature audiences.
    No, but it does mean that Superman isn't necessarily being written with children in mind.

    If needed be it could be cut it wouldn't matter to the story. There are stories that require the r-rating.That can't be done in the pg13 environment.Superman is'nt that type of character. He will never be.
    You literally said it yourself: PG13. 13-year-olds tend to be smarter than 5-year-olds. When I was 13, I would've been skeptical of any story that didn't realistically portray how people would act.

    True,but there is growing audience for young adult stuff and mangas. In fact, their sales are more than straight superhero comics.superhero market is shrinking. Manga and youngadult market meanwhile is growing.
    And? I can think of a LOT of manga and anime that isn't that suitable for children to read or watch. Inuyasha and Cowboy Bebop for example contain a plethora of violence and suggestive situations. They aren't really stories written for 5-year-olds.

    Well Yeah! Civil war was silverage. It certainly wasn't the 90s edge storyline. It had the fun and the goofiness all things connected to silverage. Plus, feige himself has said MCU is influenced heavily by donner superman. Donner superman is influenced by precrisis kal el. As for the serious parts those things happened in silverage, too.
    Uh, no it wasn't since the entire premise of the story was grounded in a realistic reaction to the Avengers' actions. It was couched in real-world consequences.

    His action proves he doesn't care for value the boundary or states sovereignity. I don't see the difference. Stopping/restricting air space usage is standard procedure. You can't cross a border without permission again and again. He will be branded security threat and blown to kingdom come. It is the same. You can believe what you want. If any country representative decides to fly over any other country again and again without permission. They will be dealt with.
    Except, again, Superman isn't the representative of any country. He's not a U.S. diplomat or representative. He's a free agent. And, for the millionth time, he never decides to lay claim to a country's territory when he crosses the border. So, yes, it is different. Its not the same. I'm sorry if that blows a hole in your argument, but it does.

    Yes, i never said they didn't. But since, clark has proven it won't. He made a prototype . They don't have any right.
    Again, that's very heavy conjecture. You have no proof that Clark has proven anything. And again, the U.S. government does have a right since it's their city.

    No, conjecture. Pure, "cause he's superman" scifi logic.
    So you're just advocating for lazy writing at this point?

    As said, cuz superman let it.batman beats superman. Cuz superman doesn't care. That's the best.i knew that was coming a mile away. Superman would have seen it coming from across the universe.
    What the hell are you talking about?? Kryptonite is an established weakness for Superman. End of story. If Batman can get his hands on it, you bet the U.S. government would be able to.

    Dude! Superman can easily create deals with these countries promising to not intervene in their personal matters directly as a sanctioned person by the Metropolis citizens. Its big price but it will have to be paid for the sake of the people he has to protect. They would also want the future tech deals from the city of tomorrow. Ofcourse, clark would never give out any weapons. But, medicines and other things. Setting their uneasiness at rest. They would just sit quietly. They wouldn't have any other options. A Fight with superman even if they allied with US would be pointless for them. Since, they hate US and not particularly fond of superman. They would have them dish it out. Clark would prefer it that way. And these countries know any separatist movement in their country has no supermen for their support. They wouldn't worry about it succeeding.
    Again, this is really not reflective of how people actually act in real life. The mere fact of a city all of a sudden declaring independence is an issue for other countries. China, especially, would not be okay with such a precedent being set, since they actually have the whole Taiwan thing going on.

    No, they didn't take land. They made teleporters in The US that too without permission. They stole a percentage of their civilians. That's similar to land.
    Uh...NO, it's not. Human beings are not similar to land because human beings have a right to choose where they live. And that makes sense since humans are, you know, mobile. Land, on the other hand, is not so mobile. So the X-Men asking mutants to move to Krakoa is absolutely not the same as Superman up and stealing a piece of U.S. territory. Again, this statement doesn't reflect reality.

    Superman, takes that out of the picture and into the trashcan, in this particular case. Like i said, bullying a bully is what clark does best.That might not be very good solution. But, clark does do that. The story feels pretty interesting. Man! I can't believe it actually paralleled moses.
    So, you're advocating for Superman to just flex his muscle to get what he wants, even though he was not elected and has no right to it. The government on the other hand has a right of sovereignty that is within reason for it to exercise. So, what you're advocating for doesn't sound like Clark bullying a bully. It just sounds like Clark being a bully. That...does not sound like Clark.

    Anyway, this whole conversation is moot. Such a story would probably be canned if it was ever pitched. There are way too many plot holes and logical fallacies as you've proposed it for this to ever see the light of day.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 01-18-2020 at 11:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    I pointed out in my response where you were factually wrong. And again, NOBODY is talking about this. Why are you?



    Action Comics #1004



    No, but it does mean that Superman isn't necessarily being written with children in mind.



    You literally said it yourself: PG13. 13-year-olds tend to be smarter than 5-year-olds. When I was 13, I would've been skeptical of any story that didn't realistically portray how people would act.



    And? I can think of a LOT of manga and anime that isn't that suitable for children to read or watch. Inuyasha and Cowboy Bebop for example contain a plethora of violence and suggestive situations. They aren't really stories written for 5-year-olds.



    Uh, no it wasn't since the entire premise of the story was grounded in a realistic reaction to the Avengers' actions. It was couched in real-world consequences.



    Except, again, Superman isn't the representative of any country. He's not a U.S. diplomat or representative. He's a free agent. And, for the millionth time, he never decides to lay claim to a country's territory when he crosses the border. So, yes, it is different. Its not the same. I'm sorry if that blows a hole in your argument, but it does.



    Again, that's very heavy conjecture. You have no proof that Clark has proven anything. And again, the U.S. government does have a right since it's their city.



    So you're just advocating for lazy writing at this point?



    What the hell are you talking about?? Kryptonite is an established weakness for Superman. End of story. If Batman can get his hands on it, you bet the U.S. government would be able to.



    Again, this is really not reflective of how people actually act in real life. The mere fact of a city all of a sudden declaring independence is an issue for other countries. China, especially, would not be okay with such a precedent being set, since they actually have the whole Taiwan thing going on.



    Uh...NO, it's not. Human beings are not similar to land because human beings have a right to choose where they live. And that makes sense since humans are, you know, mobile. Land, on the other hand, is not so mobile. So the X-Men asking mutants to move to Krakoa is absolutely not the same as Superman up and stealing a piece of U.S. territory. Again, this statement doesn't reflect reality.



    So, you're advocating for Superman to just flex his muscle to get what he wants, even though he was not elected and has no right to it. That...does not sound like Superman.

    Anyway, this whole conversation is moot. Such a story would probably be canned if it was ever pitched. There are way too many plot holes and logical fallacies as you've proposed it for this to ever see the light of day.
    Where? I didn't see it.

    Action comics #1004 was both terrible and not exactly mature. It's is perfectly pg13.

    Yeah! That's not good.If children can't get into superman. Then superman as a character fails.

    Not really, 13 to 17 years would be a ok with fantastic storytelling. Shonen is for people that age range.it deals with it's own worlds many a times. Realism isn't questioned. they are perfectly ok with it.There are they ofcourse shonen for younger audiences 5 to 10 as well like doreamon. Superman's audience target audience should be 7 to 14,i believe. Pg13 would work. Realism isn't much of a constraint. Not to mention, people are reading mangas than comics these days.

    Again, cowboy bepop and inuyasha are pg13. It's for 13 to 17 year olds not for 5 year olds.

    Those kind of consequences happened in silverage. Ofcourse, older stories were meant to be more episodic with start, middle and end in the same issue. So, serialised story connection were not there. Also, They just didn't take itself serious like in postcrisis and new52 is pinnacle of that kind of mentality . Mcu does the same thing as silverage. They use jokes to undercut many moments,look at ragnarok, guardians of the galaxy, avengers.. Etc. The only movie that's not like that is the winter soldier. To be fair, the russo brothers like to keep the intensity. Their movies are serious. But, that doesn’t mean these movies as a whole take after modern age in tone.

    He is very much an affiliate of America. He seen as such. The other states will only see him as such. His charges will be the same. US saying he is not. Wouldn't mean much. Regardless, superman cross borders again and again Is undermining the states sovereignity and its security. He is criminal of that state and enemy because it is quite frankly infiltration .

    If scifi and fantasy are lazy writing. Then superman himself is a lazily built as a character. What proof mate? This just hypothetical situation for a story. Not real incident. Are you really thinking this is real? Anyways, instory he creates even a prototype. That's proof. Why? Because its my story and all i have to do is convince people the instory mechanism and not allow their suspension of disbelief to be broken. A teleportation feild will work phenomenally. It was their(US) city,untill they overreached their jurisdiction like the British.So,the citizens decided to detach itself. I mean, US started the fight.

    So, what? He has gotten immune to kryptonite many times. If he wants, he can any time. Superman allows that weakness to continue to persist. He gives bruce the Kryptonite himself. Because he doesn't want people to be afraid of him and he wants people to not feel like they aren't in control. But the truth is they aren't. No one in the world is. End of your story maybe with superman getting beat, but not mine. Kryptonite even if it works wouldn't do a damn thing. How many times has evil clark taken over?i have Lost count. What did US do? Nothing, zilch, nada.Ofcourse, superman doesn't need to he has friends, equipment, tech.. Etc.US is outgunned and out manned.note:- my superman ain't evil.

    No, mate that's precisely how countries react. Does china care if catalonia becomes independent? Nah! It doesn't give two shit as long asit doesn't impact them. The countries very well know,any and all session attempts in their country requires superman or someone of his caliber to succeed . Since, they know he is taking himself out of the picture. They would be happy. They might even help clark instead cause US and china aren't friends . But, i don't think clark would take it. I mean, he is more than enough to stop US government.He might take help from keenan, though. Two supermen, yeah! The US government is toast. China doesn't just have Taiwan. That's just one.But,that doesn’t matter.
    He isn't elected. But, the city of tomorrow is an initiative chosen by the people of Metropolis. He flexes muscle because a bully thought he could bully the people. That's exactly what Superman does. He hates bullies.

    Doesn't matter. Nah! It doesn't. You are a patriot. I just understandably, offended you. But, to tell you the truth i have no skin in the game. I am a bit of a patriot myself. A flying city can happen in superman comics. Ofcourse, it might not have the superman vs US government thing. But overall they might use a different kind of conflict. All i am really showing you is the limitations of the settings and that causes superman stories to be boring, especially for kids. If Metropolis a fictional city with in a fictional country of a fictional world had this same story. You wouldn't have had this reaction. Heck! Can you say you would be this offended if this story was told with superman and china, spain, britain, india.. Etc.? Nah! I don't think so. Citizens of those countries might be offended. but, you i doubt it. If you are accusing me of fallacy which type? As for holes, what logical holes? The story hasn't even been written yet.
    Have you heard of one? He was a guy like me. He just made a comic with crappy drawings and great story on a site. Lo and behold one punch man was born.

    Also, Superman is the president of earth now. So much for, superman can't do this and that or realism.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 01-19-2020 at 03:02 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Where? I didn't see it.
    The places in my previous post where I literally said you were factually wrong.

    Yeah! That's not good.If children can't get into superman. Then superman as a character fails.
    I'm not contesting that. But if Superman is marketable ONLY to children, then he also fails. DC can market stuff like their DC Zoom and Ink to younger kids, while allowing the main DC Universe stuff to be more in line with what people in their 20s-30s want to read about. That way, when those kids who read DC Ink and Zoom want to get back into Superman after 10+ years, they have something to read.

    Not really...Shonen is for people that age range.it deals with it's own worlds many a times. Realism isn't questioned. they are perfectly ok with it...Realism isn't much of a constraint. Not to mention, people are reading mangas than comics these days.
    Again, that doesn't explain why Marvel was able to come onto the scene with their realistic and restive approach to superheroes in the 60s and then proceed to absolutely trounce DC, which seemed unrelatable and out-of-touch by comparison or why Marvel STILL uses that marketing strategy to great effect. Marvel's slogan for a long time was "Your Universe" after all. It was only by adopting and utilizing some of that realism and complexity that DC was able to survive and bring their heroes into the modern age. I'm sorry if you don't like that fact, but that's what happened. Most readers tend to like seeing heroes grapple with real-world issues because it makes them relatable. Superman can be as powerful as a god, but he still grapples with things everyday people grapple with. So, he's not actually a god. He's a man.

    Again, cowboy bepop and inuyasha are pg13. It's for 13 to 17 year olds not for 5 year olds.
    Yeah, and the characters are flawed and complex and a lot of the time deal with real-word stresses. That's what makes them relatable. What you're arguing is for Superman to be the opposite of that.

    Those kind of consequences happened in silverage...Mcu does the same thing as silverage. They use jokes to undercut many moments,look at ragnarok, guardians of the galaxy, avengers.. Etc. The only movie that's not like that is the winter soldier...But, that doesn’t mean these movies as a whole take after modern age in tone.
    Dude, humor was not limited to the Silver Age. Ever hear of the BWAHAHA Justice League? That is hardly an argument that these films take after Silver Age comics. Like, seriously. Also, almost all of these films are themselves adapted from modern age comic book storylines: Civil War, Out of Time, The Infinity Saga, etc. So, yes, they do take after modern age stories in tone.

    He is very much an affiliate of America. He seen as such...Regardless, superman cross borders again and again Is undermining the states sovereignity and its security. He is criminal of that state and enemy...
    Except again, according to fact, no he's not. He even denounced his American citizenship at one point to drive home the fact that he wasn't a tool of America. And as I explained, a lot of countries, the U.S. included treat immigration enforcement as a civil matter, not a criminal one.

    If scifi and fantasy are lazy writing. Then superman himself is a lazily built as a character. What proof mate?...It was their(US) city,untill they overreached their jurisdiction like the British.So,the citizens decided to detach itself. I mean, US started the fight.
    Sci fi and fantasy isn't lazy writing but what you're advocating for is. Superman winning simply because he's Superman is boring. Superman creating a prototype of a flying city in 5 minutes because he's Superman is not interesting. As any writer will tell you, people tend to respond more when the protagonist has struggles and flaws and is not a "perfect" specimen who experiences little to no hardship. The former is a complex and layered character. The latter is a Mary Sue who people don't tend to respond to. I don't know about you, but I want Superman to be a complex and interesting character, who faces hardship and uncertainty because that is what makes for an interesting character.

    Also, I think you're forgetting that the British didn't just accept American Independence. They weren't like "You guys wanna leave the Empire? Yeah. That's fine. Here, just sign this form." There was this thing called the Revolutionary War that where a lot of people died fighting for our independence from the British. Except in the case of the Revolutionary War, it was about Americans being taxed without representation (there's a lot more nuance to that, but that's for another time). What you're arguing for is literally just people seceding for the sake of "how cool would a flying city be guys?"

    So, what? He has gotten immune to kryptonite many times. If he wants, he can any time. Superman allows that weakness to continue to persist. He gives bruce the Kryptonite himself...Kryptonite even if it works wouldn't do a damn thing...What did US do? Nothing, zilch, nada.Ofcourse...Etc.US is outgunned and out manned.note:- my superman ain't evil.
    Again, hundreds of pages of comic book canon would disagree with you. How many examples are there where Superman's been utterly trashed because of Kryptonite being added to the equation? Batman: Hush, TDKR, Tower of Babel, Superman #149 (a Silver Age story where Supes is actually murdered because of Kryptonite), etc. Not to mention the heroes and villains who are able to beat Superman just because of their abilities. Wonder Woman has slit his throat in the past, almost any sorcerer is able to defeat him, etc.

    Also, taking a city from its country and appointing yourself its guardian for like no real reason sounds very evil to me. I would be scared if someone with immense power all of a sudden decided that taking one of our cities was "what was best."

    No, mate that's precisely how countries react. Does china care if catalonia becomes independent? Nah!
    They actually might, since again they have their whole Taiwan, One China Policy situation going on over there. And just to be clear, I'm not picking sides in that whole thing, just predicting how China wouldn't want that precedent set.

    And, speaking of Catalonia, they would likely be blocked from joining the EU if they did become independent. EU members have to vote unanimously to accept new members. Spain would absolutely veto them joining. And again, not taking any sort of side in that debate, just saying what's a likely scenario. But its also analogous to how the U.S. would block any sort of UN recognition of Metropolis as an independent country and since the U.S. is a permanent member of the UN Security Council, that would be a permanent issue.

    It doesn't give two shit as long asit doesn't impact them...Since, they know he is taking himself out of the picture. They would be happy. They might even help clark instead cause US and china aren't friends .
    You do know that the U.S. and China a big trading partners who depend on each other economically, right? So anything that would be a blow to our economy would be something they'd take interest in.

    But, i don't think clark would take it. I mean, he is more than enough to stop US government.He might take help from keenan, though. Two supermen, yeah! The US government is toast.
    I wouldn't imagine it'd be that easy, no. Plus, I'm pretty sure plenty of other people like Batman and Flash and Wonder Woman probably wouldn't be on board with Superman just abducting a U.S. city.

    He isn't elected. But, the city of tomorrow is an initiative chosen by the people of Metropolis. He flexes muscle because a bully thought he could bully the people...He hates bullies.
    The scenario you're proposing is Clark being a bully. Its also not grounded at all in reality.

    Doesn't matter. Nah! It doesn't. You are a patriot...A flying city can happen in superman comics. Ofcourse, it might not have the superman vs US government thing...f Metropolis a fictional city with in a fictional country of a fictional world had this same story. You wouldn't have had this reaction. Heck! Can you say you would be this offended if this story was told with superman and china, spain, britain, india.. Etc.? Nah! I don't think so. Citizens of those countries might be offended. but, you i doubt it.
    Actually I would be as offended because I don't think that Superman has the right to take territory from any country. I'd say Superman should engage in humanitarian intervention, BUT that is only when there are severe cases of human rights abuse like when the government is rounding people up in concentration camps or purposefully starving their citizens. Notably, that’s does NOT include just a case where the government thinks it's a bad idea to have a floating city.

    If you are accusing me of fallacy which type? As for holes, what logical holes? The story hasn't even been written yet. Have you heard of one?...Lo and behold one punch man was born.
    Uh, the idea that the U.S. government would just roll over and accept one of their cities flying away. The idea that the citizens of Metropolis would vote for such a thing without being at least a serious debate. The idea that other heroes wouldn't think Superman is overstepping his boundaries. The idea that there wouldn't be significant international backlash to such a move, especially from U.S. allies, many of whom are permanent members of the UN.

    These are all huge holes in your logic and point to the fact that you haven't really thought out this story you're pitching well enough.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 01-19-2020 at 12:22 PM.

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    Can you two either take this to PMs or to the Superman forum ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Can you two either take this to PMs or to the Superman forum ?
    Of course. Sorry for hijacking the thread.

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    You two say that and then turn around and hijack the thread again and again.

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    Issue 2 sold around 35k. A bit more than the second issue of Morbius. Tragic level failure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by madmodpoetgod View Post
    Issue 2 sold around 35k. A bit more than the second issue of Morbius. Tragic level failure.
    I'm still buying it, 'cause I buy all things Legion, even weird Legion-ish things like Hypernaturals or stuff at Marvel involving the Shiar Imperial Guard. I may want better, but I don't want *any* version of the Legion to fail. That just discourages the suits from trying at all, 'cause they are not 'the brave & the bold' when it comes to investing time and money on a title/franchise that is beginning to look like a money (and talent) sink.

    There's some sort of 'the old fanbase can't sustain the title anyway, so we need to totally revamp the franchise to appeal to new fans, at the cost of shedding the older ones' concept that seems less successful than desired. *Maybe* the Legion can't succeed in a style that appeals to the older fans, because there just aren't enough of them left, after all these failed attempts to change everything (which have succeeded only in splintering and fractionalizing the fanbase, IMO). But whatever this is, doesn't seem to be setting the house on fire, either.

    (Heck, I bought Youngblood, 'cause I wanted Rob Liefield to be super successful at his new gig, and never get his paws on my New Mutants again, so I'm no stranger to buying comics for weird reasons.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    You two say that and then turn around and hijack the thread again and again.
    The Legion's on #3 already, they can have this thread ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    I'm still buying it, 'cause I buy all things Legion, even weird Legion-ish things like Hypernaturals or stuff at Marvel involving the Shiar Imperial Guard. I may want better, but I don't want *any* version of the Legion to fail. That just discourages the suits from trying at all, 'cause they are not 'the brave & the bold' when it comes to investing time and money on a title/franchise that is beginning to look like a money (and talent) sink.

    There's some sort of 'the old fanbase can't sustain the title anyway, so we need to totally revamp the franchise to appeal to new fans, at the cost of shedding the older ones' concept that seems less successful than desired. *Maybe* the Legion can't succeed in a style that appeals to the older fans, because there just aren't enough of them left, after all these failed attempts to change everything (which have succeeded only in splintering and fractionalizing the fanbase, IMO). But whatever this is, doesn't seem to be setting the house on fire, either.

    (Heck, I bought Youngblood, 'cause I wanted Rob Liefield to be super successful at his new gig, and never get his paws on my New Mutants again, so I'm no stranger to buying comics for weird reasons.)
    It is an weird strategy. Maybe that is the way how Rob Liefeld rose to stardom.
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