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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Having superheroes fight each other and having both of them start and end as heroes will always be stupid and hard to impossible to achieve at least in a mainstream superhero story. And as it is Captain America Civil War didn't do a good enough job to establish that. If you see the movie it sort of works in isolation on strength of individual scenes but overall it doesn't work.

    Acts of Vengeance was a story that dealt with registration and it didn't involve heroes fighting each other...and Tony was against it there. So there was a better alternative.



    Spider-Man's role in CIVIL War which also set the course for the direction of his later films (i.e. Iron Man sub-franchise) could have been done any number of ways. The one they chose, tying it to Robert Downey Jr. is obviously a reflection of his great star power.

    BTW, Robert Downey Jr. was almost not in Civil War either. His contract had finished and was negotiating an update and Perlmutter wanted to fire him because he was asking for pay. This was one of the reasons why Feige got autonomy and so his current promotion. So that's an example of how important RDJ was that ultimately the suits decided to fence Perlmutter in rather than drive him away.

    Had RDJ not come in then the Russos would have adapted Jack Kirby's Madbomb as Captain America Part 3. Spider-Man would have still shown up since the Sony/Marvel deal isn't conditioned on RDJ but if he's out of the picture, then I think Spider-Man would have been more of his own character.
    Considering the fact that Perlmutter is a guy widely known for being cheap, and did not want female or minorities to lead films, and overall Feige was almost going to quit because he had to keep dealing with Perlmutter and the creative committee, plus the fact the Russo's wanted to do Civil war and Feige gave them the OK after initially rejecting the idea because of BvS being announced doesn't help your point because you're not giving the full story you're only giving as much so it looks like stuff happened or was greenlight because of RDJ and not because of other factors.
    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    It's the issue with Batman. Sure he's a great character, great villains and great stories (a little overexposed but let's leave that aside)...but at the same time, I don't like seeing stories where the Justice League and everyone else are chumps who bask in his giant cape-extended silhouette. I don't like the Batgod. I don't think it does it service. Likewise, stories where Batman insults Robin or his partners and so on. I mean if the story is communicating that Batman is being an asshole (like Waid's Tower of Babel) then it's fine but usually it's passed as a straight face. The MCU Tony and Spidey thing feels like the Irongod, you know the sidekick can't talk back and so on. And it gets annoying to see and it feels anti-democratic somehow.

    I prefer the JLU cartoons where Batman is treated as equal to the rest of the JL and they to him. Some times other characters get the last word, sometimes some minor guy saves the day...whereas in the MCU, it always seems to be Iron Man who's the center of everything and that just sucks.

    I do in fact think that Spider-Man is a better character than Iron Man, on both a literary level and a moral level. And I am not wrong to think. I don't think it's uncontroversial to claim that there are far more great stories in the comics with Spider-Man than Iron Man, and that you can find 100 great stories (as in as good as the best of superhero comics) with Spider-Man and a much smaller number (maybe less than 25, less than 50 if you want to be charitable) with Iron Man. And I think that people have a right to expect the on-screen versions reflect that reality.
    It just sounds you're saying nothing other than you hate how Iron Man was star of the MCU and they dared to have Spider-Man look up to him.
    That's all it sounds like, and given how you advocated for Tony getting character assassinated in Civil War just so Thor could beat him look coo it's hard seeing any other way.

  2. #92
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloxer View Post
    It just sounds you're saying nothing other than you hate how Iron Man was star of the MCU and they dared to have Spider-Man look up to him.
    The truth is if you see the MCu virtually every character at some point or another gets in Tonyís face and takes him down a peg. In IM-2 it was Black Widow and Rhodey, in Avengers itís Cap. In ultron itís again everyone for you know building Ultron. In IW itís Strange and in Endgame itís Rocket. So within the MCU Tonyís established as an irritating somewhat obnoxious guy who gets on peopleís nerves. So I think Spider-Man should get one over him too in the way that Miles and Gwen get one over Peter B in ITSV. Something that makes it clear that Iron Man isnít the boss of him.

  3. #93
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The truth is if you see the MCu virtually every character at some point or another gets in Tony’s face and takes him down a peg. In IM-2 it was Black Widow and Rhodey, in Avengers it’s Cap. In ultron it’s again everyone for you know building Ultron. In IW it’s Strange and in Endgame it’s Rocket. So within the MCU Tony’s established as an irritating somewhat obnoxious guy who gets on people’s nerves. So I think Spider-Man should get one over him too in the way that Miles and Gwen get one over Peter B in ITSV. Something that makes it clear that Iron Man isn’t the boss of him.
    I mean...can't really do that now, can he? Haha
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  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The truth is if you see the MCu virtually every character at some point or another gets in Tony’s face and takes him down a peg. In IM-2 it was Black Widow and Rhodey, in Avengers it’s Cap. In ultron it’s again everyone for you know building Ultron. In IW it’s Strange and in Endgame it’s Rocket. So within the MCU Tony’s established as an irritating somewhat obnoxious guy who gets on people’s nerves. So I think Spider-Man should get one over him too in the way that Miles and Gwen get one over Peter B in ITSV. Something that makes it clear that Iron Man isn’t the boss of him.
    Peter literally walked away from Tony and his offer to be an Avenger. Does that not count because Peter wasn't disrespectful enough?

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The truth is if you see the MCu virtually every character at some point or another gets in Tony’s face and takes him down a peg. In IM-2 it was Black Widow and Rhodey, in Avengers it’s Cap. In ultron it’s again everyone for you know building Ultron. In IW it’s Strange and in Endgame it’s Rocket. So within the MCU Tony’s established as an irritating somewhat obnoxious guy who gets on people’s nerves. So I think Spider-Man should get one over him too in the way that Miles and Gwen get one over Peter B in ITSV. Something that makes it clear that Iron Man isn’t the boss of him.
    Now it just sounds like you don't like the fact they're on good terms with each other

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I actually do know what it means, and again the connotation of using that to describe a hero/sidekick thing has been inherent to comics and comics' media since the days of Frederick Wertham.
    Clearly you actually don't.

    Unless you want to suggest that Tony is plying Peter with money in exchange for sex, which is what "sugar daddy" means, choose your words more carefully.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    People use that as a metaphor these days...after all, making Peter fixated on Tony, doesn't exactly gel with "wealth and fame, he's ignored" so it's apt to ask exactly why Peter likes Tony. If it's because Tony gives him nice shiny expensive gifts and toys and resourceful friends...well the boot fits.
    A lot of people like Tony, you know. He is incredibly charismatic, after all.

    Peter isn't so shallow that he only likes people for what they give him. And outside of the Spider-suit, what has Tony actually given Peter?

    He still lives in Queens with May. He hasn't been put up in a fancy new house. He doesn't drive a new car. He doesn't go to school in a slick new wardrobe purchased on Tony's dime. Tony is not funneling money to Peter in any way.

    You clearly have a hang up about Tony and his role in the MCU. It leads you to blur, misinterpret, and outright ignore facts.

    Your case against Tony and Peter's relationship is based not on what actually happens in the movies but rather your distorted perception of what happened.

  7. #97
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Okay, I'm going to lay it out for all of you:

    For those who like MCU Spider-Man: It's okay if people have different interpretations and different desires for the character. No one interpretation will, clearly, make everyone happy. There are some issues with the MCU Spider-Man, admittedly, albeit not as many as people say. I say we let bygones be bygones on that one. Don't expect everyone to like what you like.

    For those who hate MCU Spider-Man: It's okay if people like the MCU's interpretation of Spider-Man. No one is diminishing the comics or its importance to the mythos and certainly not Spider-Man's importance to the world just by liking this character. You don't have to "convince" everyone to dislike (or in a weird case, outright despise) this version of Spider-Man. He's one of many. Don't expect everyone to like what you like.

    Now we can stop this sling-fest and get back to the topic, correct?
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  8. #98
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Peter literally walked away from Tony and his offer to be an Avenger. Does that not count because Peter wasn't disrespectful enough?
    Yeah. It should be, "I nearly got killed because you rolled over a guy's salvage business and he went nuts, and also turned to out be the Dad of this girl I wanted to ask out, and now I got c---blocked because of you" or words to that end.

    If Thor can neck-lift Tony in Ultron, I think it's fair to expect Peter (who has super-strength and can theoretically do that) to at least talk smack to Tony. In Ultimate Marvel, Fury got backtalked by Ultimate Peter all the time...so I think it should be the case here too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bloxer View Post
    Now it just sounds like you don't like the fact they're on good terms with each other
    Yeah...if a character is rich, obnoxious, and self-righteous (which Tony was throughout the MCU) I don't think people should be entirely on good terms with him. Especially since Tony in his interactions with Peter is clearly a class snob.

    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    For those who like MCU Spider-Man: It's okay if people have different interpretations and different desires for the character. No one interpretation will, clearly, make everyone happy. There are some issues with the MCU Spider-Man, admittedly, albeit not as many as people say. I say we let bygones be bygones on that one. Don't expect everyone to like what you like.
    Agreed on this. My end at least.

  9. #99
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Yeah. It should be, "I nearly got killed because you rolled over a guy's salvage business and he went nuts, and also turned to out be the Dad of this girl I wanted to ask out, and now I got c---blocked because of you" or words to that end.

    If Thor can neck-lift Tony in Ultron, I think it's fair to expect Peter (who has super-strength and can theoretically do that) to at least talk smack to Tony. In Ultimate Marvel, Fury got backtalked by Ultimate Peter all the time...so I think it should be the case here too.



    Yeah...if a character is rich, obnoxious, and self-righteous (which Tony was throughout the MCU) I don't think people should be entirely on good terms with him. Especially since Tony in his interactions with Peter is clearly a class snob.



    Agreed on this. My end at least.
    You missed the second part of my comment on the matter.
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  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Yeah. It should be, "I nearly got killed because you rolled over a guy's salvage business and he went nuts, and also turned to out be the Dad of this girl I wanted to ask out, and now I got c---blocked because of you" or words to that end.
    Does that sound anywhere near what Peter would ever actually say to anybody?

    No, it doesn't.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    Okay, I'm going to lay it out for all of you:

    For those who like MCU Spider-Man: It's okay if people have different interpretations and different desires for the character. No one interpretation will, clearly, make everyone happy. There are some issues with the MCU Spider-Man, admittedly, albeit not as many as people say. I say we let bygones be bygones on that one. Don't expect everyone to like what you like.

    For those who hate MCU Spider-Man: It's okay if people like the MCU's interpretation of Spider-Man. No one is diminishing the comics or its importance to the mythos and certainly not Spider-Man's importance to the world just by liking this character. You don't have to "convince" everyone to dislike (or in a weird case, outright despise) this version of Spider-Man. He's one of many. Don't expect everyone to like what you like.

    Now we can stop this sling-fest and get back to the topic, correct?
    Yeah I'll stop.
    Only after I get my word in on a few things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Yeah. It should be, "I nearly got killed because you rolled over a guy's salvage business and he went nuts, and also turned to out be the Dad of this girl I wanted to ask out, and now I got c---blocked because of you" or words to that end.
    That's dumb, it's just dumb.
    Not even getting into the fact it was Peter's decision to go after Vulture after Tony told him not to, there's the fact now you want Peter to curse Tony out because he's successful at running his company and didn't consider the idea a competitor who he may not have even known existed would became a super villain because of it?
    It's stupid, you just want an excuse for Peter to be against Tony because you don't like him.
    Yeah...if a character is rich, obnoxious, and self-righteous (which Tony was throughout the MCU) I don't think people should be entirely on good terms with him. Especially since Tony in his interactions with Peter is clearly a class snob.
    So yeah you're pretty much just admitting you refuse to see Tony's good traits and just hate the fact someone can along with him, and you're just making stuff up with the class snob thing, of course you tried make him being rich into a negative trait so what should I expect.

  12. #102
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    I find it really funny that the thread got derailed from the topic to this tired old tangent (and if we must go on said tangent, it seems to have been completely forgotten that MCU Spidey is adapted from the Ultimate comics, not the ASM ones).
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
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    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  13. #103
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    I find it really funny that the thread got derailed from the topic to this tired old tangent (and if we must go on said tangent, it seems to have been completely forgotten that MCU Spidey is adapted from the Ultimate comics, not the ASM ones).
    Right you are, WebLurker. It is a tired tangent, but you are right about where the actual source material is from.
    Last edited by WebSlingWonder; 10-17-2019 at 07:25 PM.
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  14. #104
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    I find it really funny that the thread got derailed from the topic to this tired old tangent (and if we must go on said tangent, it seems to have been completely forgotten that MCU Spidey is adapted from the Ultimate comics, not the ASM ones).
    at least it's a relatively new tangent in the scheme of things. i'm excited!
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  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    I find it really funny that the thread got derailed from the topic to this tired old tangent (and if we must go on said tangent, it seems to have been completely forgotten that MCU Spidey is adapted from the Ultimate comics, not the ASM ones).
    Even then, it's not even Peter they based him on, but on Miles for whatever reason.

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