X-Men #1 Discussion Thread [Spoilers]

[JKtheMac]

A coy turn of phrase, but no, what Moira used on Muir Isle in 2000-2001 was a Shi'ar golem controlled by a host personality/operator. Madelyne was a clone whose own personality ultimately evolved into its own distinction - no more or less than any other autonomous clone in the Marvel Universe. Case in point: Ben Reilly, Kaine, Laura Kinney/X-23 (though there is room for nuance on that point), Gabby/Honey Badger, Evan Sabahnur, and a fair number of others I can't name offhand.

Strange don’t you think? How a clone can very rapidly develop a totally artificial personality and fake memories. You are not selling this idea. Especially as she was a failed, lifeless clone until the Phoenix touched her and sparked her to life.

Plus Laura isn’t a clone anymore and Gabby was very early on revealed to be a little more scary and psychopathic than she lets on. Hmmm. I suspect TT had a plan for her that was never fully explored but may come back to shock us.

[JKtheMac]

No, here's where you're extrapolating, because the fact is we don't know to which fans he was referring, firstly. He is likely simply referencing the fact that no one picked up on it in the questions used for that Q&A, or in any random sampling of reactions on social media. Some fans are simply very thick on this stuff; he's not talking directly to CBR. Unless you intend to argue that Inferno is more famous than the Dark Phoenix Saga, which is nonsense, and also, she didn't wear it there.

Pretty sure he was referring to how social media and fandom in general haven’t picked up on it. I have a vague memory of a costume usage soon after inferno. Around about the time Hickman was referencing with Jean’s words after her resurrection ritual to Storm. So definitely one reference to that time, possibly two.

[powerpax]

Pretty sure he was referring to how social media and fandom in general haven’t picked up on it. I have a vague memory of a costume usage soon after inferno. Around about the time Hickman was referencing with Jean’s words after her resurrection ritual to Storm. So definitely one reference to that time, possibly two.

You're welcome to think that. I think it's a reach, and that it is clearly a reference to Dark Phoenix but fans haven't understood the linkage. I thought I did and that it was purely thematic, but it may yet have a deeper plot context that we have yet to understand.

Strange don’t you think? How a clone can very rapidly develop a totally artificial personality and fake memories. You are not selling this idea.

Thrillingly, I needn't bother. Decades of comics already did it for me with Madelyne, who the comics have always treated a separate, autonomous personality and person. And as Sinister said at the time, he only thought he failed.

Gabby was very early on revealed to be a little more scary and psychopathic than she lets on.

And yet that doesn't invalidate anything I said. And not just about the Wolverclones.

[MutantHipster]

So confirmation, Scott, Jean and Logan are exploring a poly relationship.? Cohabiting and rooms with connecting doors.

[powerpax]

So confirmation, Scott, Jean and Logan are exploring a poly relationship.? Cohabiting and rooms with connecting doors.

It's certainly implied, but not definite. Though at this rate I'm pretty sure it's going to take on-panel penetration for some folks to buy it. Given Sinister's blind items and events with Emma I also suspect Scott simply troops down to the mainland to visit her as he chooses.

[TheCape]

So confirmation, Scott, Jean and Logan are exploring a poly relationship.? Cohabiting and rooms with connecting doors.

The answer to your question is... maybe. There is no confirmation, but is certanly not impossible.

[TheCape]

AFAIC the reason some Jean fans keep pushing for Madelyne to be retconned into "just an aspect of Jean" or "essentially Jean" is because they want the sin of Scott leaving his wife and baby for his high school girlfriend - and Jean's part in that - wiped away. Easier to erase Maddy if you fully subsume her to Jean. It's something the X-books certainly tried at the time of Inferno, but something Claremont never fully allowed. Madelyne is the reason Scott was roasted for most the '90s and onward by many fans because of that story. It's the same reason I never bought into Scott and Jean's relationship again, not through my whole adolescence into adulthood, until Morrison deconstructed it. His story recognized that their seemingly perfect foundation was built on a false pretense and issues they had run from facing - Scott's scars from the Apocalypse/Twelve saga and Jean's growing re-ascension to godhood were just the latest in a long line that began with how Scott treated Madelyne and Nathan. Making Scott and Jean fallible again in the early 2000s made them relatable and rootable again for me, though that did coincide with Jean dying and Scott moving on with a pairing I preferred. As of now, I have no beef with either of them.

Anyway, I also think Maddy and Jean's personalities were considerably different, especially later on but still before the Goblyn Queen. Assuming we see her I hope that's dealt with. If Hickman sought to fully unify Madelyne and Jean in a new way I'd be open to it, but it would depend on execution. He clearly is not interested in whitewashing the past like the Bob Harras crew of the '90s. And if Jean, Scott, Logan and Emma have found a new way to coexist and explore themselves - especially Jean, who's always had to wall off so much - I say go for it.

I do hope we see Ororo and Logan touch on their past at some point. That's the relationship I prefer for both of them, though it seems to be off again now.

Nah, in my case as someone that is more of a casual Scott and Jean fan (i'm neutral toward Jott as a couple) it has more to do with finding the relationship weird and strange, really it made Scott like a creep and although CC tried hard to convince us otherwise..... i never bought it, at all. Whatever Scott romantic life is after that is nothing that i ever gave much though, but i certanly not unhappy about what went down on Inferno. It made way too much sense.

[powerpax]

Nah, in my case as someone that is more of a casual Scott and Jean fan (i'm neutral toward Jott as a couple) it has more to do with finding the relationship weird and strange

I'm not doubting you on that and you're entitled to your feelings. I've heard enough of the other take since, though, to advance my judgment. There's a subset of people that just want Maddy assimilated entirely into Jean's history, and the fact is that's not what happened or who she was/is.

[People Of The Earth]

Sorry if my summary sucks, first time doing it and not a native English speaker. I tried my best.

[...]

Let's Discuss!

Not at all, this was a pretty neat summary actually! Thank you for providing it to everyone.

Personally, I was pretty irked from the get go with the whole "first mutant society" bit in the intro, kind of dismissing all the other mutant societies who came before that one. Could have been said by Xavier himself, mark - this version of him is different in a lot of aspects, like him acting mightier than thou toward non-mutants for example. I'm well aware this version has been perverted by Moira's doctrine but yeesh, it's tiresome. "That's what they do", "you are not like them", how about be uplifiting without the constant needling and disdainful remarks toward the rest of humanity, can you do that Charles? Or whatever is your mutant name now, thanks.

Two points about the Orchis assault that protruded like sore thumbs.

First, Storm talking of sapiens as if they were dirt beneath her feet.
Completely OOC for her to spout things like "Man should know better to run or beg for mercy once they've faced us", yet completely in line with the zealot haranguing the Kraked crowd back in HoX. I'm unwilling to overlook this, because she used to care about regular people, sapiens included, back when she was helping them and fighting for them back in Africa and in the US. The compassion she shows later on in this issue doesn't mesh with the generalization she was making on sapiens before.
That or Hickman made poor wording choice, using "Man" when really he meant "Those men" which Don't convey the same idea at all. And he is too smart of an author to make such a plain mistake.

Second, Magneto acting every bit as the arrogant, racist, power-hungry megalomaniac that we know him to be.
Him being celebrated for saving children ? That was a nice sighting - it WAS heroic after all. And necessary, nothing justify the harms done to innocents, let alone innocent kids. What I don't like is that, in its trail, Lensherr supremacist views are being embrassed by kids. It sounds like sapiens are THE enemy to them. A point of view taking roots in them that, of course Magneto isn't denying, but more surprisingly isn't counter-balanced by anyone present (not that I expected anything from Polaris, but there are others like Cyclops, his Brothers, Wolverine and Storm).

I can understand the hatred the ones the X-Men liberated from Orchis could harbor.
I can understand the hatred the ones who where abandonned and disparaged by their own family could harbor.
What I don't understand nor agree with is this being the only kind of people depicted here.
Fact, not all sapiens hate mutants. Fact, not all sapiens hate their mutant kid.
Yet, those are the ones who are conspicuously nowhere to be seen in HoX/PoX twelve issues and they were nowhere to be seen in that X-Men issue #1 either (safe for Corsair and the FF but, there again, they ARE superheroes, not common Joes and Janes of the world…).
Mutant-hating sapiens however? Or greedy ones? Or fearful ones? They were aplenty.
That's the definition of broad-painting/ generalization if I ever saw one.
Stereotypes.
Caricatures.
Is that what Hickman is going for with that Magneto scene?
To show how easy simplistic, dangerous beliefs can propagate?
How people can be blind to it if this come from figures they look up to, or better yet, personnal experience?
Because, let's be real here: flip this scene here, with say a Graydon Creed being welcomed back and celebrated by children who would ask eagerly if they could come with him fight mutants next time… and Creed, word for word, saying that he too waged war with mutants all his life so that sapien kids wouldn't have to live in fear, and they cheering him in response. Wouldn't that kind of scene be just as worrisome?
This lack of nuance and narrowed perspective is detrimental to everyone in-universe.

Anyway, I liked Scott this issue. He was infinitely more relatable than the revolutionary anarchist persona that disgusted me to no end with his violent ways in previous runs. Hickman's take on him is pleasant: level-headed, measured, pragmatic yet caring very much for the ones around him, their well-being and, it's been so long but Summers is even hopeful when talking about their future.
That's the character he never should have ceased to be, the best written one in this issue assuredly.
And I'm expecting something very wrong to happen with Vulcain down the line. That whole steak scene was supposed to be funny (meh…), but what was noticeable to me was the parallel he was drawing between himself and the fire he was using. The kind of innocuous remark now that foreshadow a breakdown forward in time. Personality-wise, he's nothing like the Vulcain I've read about all those years ago, that alone is already suspicious in my book.
The other characters were honestly forgetable in that Summers household, though I find here, once more, that the non-mutants are confined outside of Krakoa Mainland. And this time people will have to find Something else than the "this is a security measure" excuse, given it's the Starjammers we're talking about. And it's blatant they haven't been on the Mainland given Corsair don't know the first thing about what a Krakoan flower gate is - meaning he hadn't seen one until that point in time, let alone used one during his stay in that habitat.

As for Orchis, their doctrine can be summarized by what their leader Devo said: "there are lesser evils we tolerate for the greater good [...] Survival". I appreciate that we saw the aftermath of that space assault from the other side, the casualties they suffered. And the ominous, cold nature of the "funeral" that saw them being jettisoned toward the sun. It was grim, nothing like the exuberance of the ressuscitation of the X-Men we witnessed a few weeks ago. Which is understandable, to sapiens there is a finality to this kind of fight the mutants won't know anymore. They truly are putting everything on the line to "survive". Hickman is making a point to show the commitment to their cause, and contrast what feels like a cold, dreary, desperate struggle from Orchis with the exhilarating, warmful sense of triumph the Kraked are experiencing on the other side. Kraked who, them too, are willing to tolerate evils for the greater good (aka the whole welcoming of mutant mass-murderers and psychopaths among them…). It balance things out nicely, rather than the usual mustache-twirling evil and valiant heroes on the other side.
I'm curious to see the link between them and the Vault Children being explored in coming issues, because it was obvious this posthuman girl was one of them after Storm's remark. Are they the Novissimas the Librarian was refering to in PoX #6? Or are they simply their precursors/ ancestors? After all, it was said in the notes afterward that posthumans and machines would help improve each other until they reach a plateau. The Vault Children could be the 2.0 version to the 10.0 Librarian version of Novissimas for all we know. Color me intrigued.

[tuck frump]

Jean was acting a major bihh towards Madelyne in XFactor, blaming her for Scotts mistakes, wanting to take her child away from her... thing was messed up.

[powerpax]

I find here, once more, that the non-mutants are confined outside of Krakoa Mainland. And this time people will have to find Something else than the "this is a security measure" excuse, given it's the Starjammers we're talking about. And it's blatant they haven't been on the Mainland given Corsair don't know the first thing about what a Krakoan flower gate is - meaning he hadn't seen one until that point in time, let alone used one during his stay in that habitat.

We don't need an excuse, all we need is the text. They weren't on the mainland because Scott's home isn't on the mainland. Simple as. Further, in all likelihood Shogo lives with Jubilee on Krakoa.

And why is it so shocking that Corsair wouldn't know what it is or have been there before? Krakoa came together in the last few months.

[JKtheMac]

Thrillingly, I needn't bother. Decades of comics already did it for me with Madelyne, who the comics have always treated a separate, autonomous personality and person. And as Sinister said at the time, he only thought he failed.

Well lets look at the two most relevant bits of canon:

inferno.jpg

I mean clearly you don't like Inferno. But you can't ignore it when Hickman is directly referencing it in a quote that has a double meaning about Maddie.

[powerpax]

I remember those sequences well, yes. And the character assassination involved re: Scott's inconvenient spouse in that crossover evident in the second one, particularly from the tin-eared Louise Simonson (who is on record as not liking Madelyne). It disproves nothing I said from years of comics featuring the characters. In fact, Scott even says there, in panel, that Jean and Madelyne were fundamentally different.

You are entitled to your opinion. The history bears out, again and again, that they were not one and the same beyond flesh.

[Killerbee911]

It sounds like sapiens are THE enemy to them. .

I wonder why

As for Orchis, their doctrine can be summarized by what their leader Devo said: "there are lesser evils we tolerate for the greater good [...] Survival". I appreciate that we saw the aftermath of that space assault from the other side, the casualties they suffered. And the ominous, cold nature of the "funeral" that saw them being jettisoned toward the sun. It was grim, nothing like the exuberance of the ressuscitation of the X-Men we witnessed a few weeks ago. Which is understandable, to sapiens there is a finality to this kind of fight the mutants won't know anymore. They truly are putting everything on the line to "survive". Hickman is making a point to show the commitment to their cause, and contrast what feels like a cold, dreary, desperate struggle from Orchis with the exhilarating, warmful sense of triumph the Kraked are experiencing on the other side. Kraked who, them too, are willing to tolerate evils for the greater good (aka the whole welcoming of mutant mass-murderers and psychopaths among them…). It balance things out nicely, rather than the usual mustache-twirling evil and valiant heroes on the other side.
.

At least you stay on brand. The X-men fan base is interesting at times.

[ExodusCloak]

The cameo by Dexters mum was great