X-Men #1 Discussion Thread [Spoilers]

[jamesslow]

Quote.
And yes, I'm saying that even knowing they will try and seize control of the black market for those drugs on an international scale, making them "accessible" even for the sicks living in the countries they are barred from (Russia, Brazil, etc). That too, is pretty unrealistic when considering the scale of the countries who refused the trade deal AND the fact that fake drugs are a plague pretty much unavoidable given the nature of those miracle drugs.
It'll be interesting to see how the Marauders will tackle those issues but a 100% success rate won't be happening.

Unquote.

I agree. Let's see how realistically the writers intend to tackle distribution of black market pharmaceuticals in huge real (and fictional) countries.

And what the hell is up with that drug that extends your life by 5 years? Is there a list of exclusions as long as your arm? Do your next of kin have an actionable case if you die?

[jamesslow]

Quote.
And yes, I'm saying that even knowing they will try and seize control of the black market for those drugs on an international scale, making them "accessible" even for the sicks living in the countries they are barred from (Russia, Brazil, etc). That too, is pretty unrealistic when considering the scale of the countries who refused the trade deal AND the fact that fake drugs are a plague pretty much unavoidable given the nature of those miracle drugs.
It'll be interesting to see how the Marauders will tackle those issues but a 100% success rate won't be happening.

Unquote.

I agree. Let's see how realistically the writers intend to tackle distribution of black market pharmaceuticals in huge real (and fictional) countries.

And what the hell is up with that drug that extends your life by 5 years? Is there a list of exclusions as long as your arm? Do your next of kin have an actionable case if you die?

I'm not the only one who agrees

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[People Of The Earth]

Well that is one of the bigger problem with comics, Superhero for some fans means an unrealistic standard of perfection that at times make characters look like caricatures. I get the wish-fulfillment and fantasy aspect of heroes who never do anything wrong and are these higher standards but that is Justice League or Avengers not X-men It doesn't work for the X-men imo. The X-men imo have always been more of the great good type of guys than the no-compromise guys.

Yeah no, sorry, of all the comics readers there is out there, Marvel readers are the least likely to fall into that trap given the whole point of Marvel stories is to present relatable, flawed characters. And the X-Men are at the forefront of such groups of characters. So no, you are making a gross assumption here, thinking that the people pointing out elements here and there are doing so from a place where they hold unrealistic expectations. There are basic elements from the X-Men mythos that are being thoroughly shaken-up or discarded for now by Hickman, so of course that would elicit a reaction, a rightful one imo, that's one of the goal of any writer to begin with and Hickman is a top class writer.

Being a superhero in Marvel means you put humanity first which is why Avengers end up looking super unintentionally hypocritical in books because mutants are part of people who need protecting and due X-men stuff being X-men stuff those high moral heroes just look bad because they can't interact with the world effectively.

Agreed. This is how I see it too. And really, considering how rarely any other heroes show up to help mutant causes, it AMAZES me how often the X-Men go out of their way to help the other heroes who can’t be bothered to help them. And yet, people still say they aren’t as heroic for not putting humanity’s desires before mutankind’s needs...

They keep on doing emotional and heroic labor for others, even when those others don’t reciprocate. If anything, that makes them MORE heroic than most other heroes. Their primary focus is on their own people, but when the world is threatened by Carnage or Norman Osborne, or Thanos, or whatever, they step up to help, because even though they focus on their own, they live on the Earth too.

It’s like...

Whenever there's a Spider-Man event, there’s Wolverine to help out, and sometimes others as well.
When the Avengers have an event, the non-Wolverine X-Men show up to help out, either in main story or in a tie-in.

Meanwhile, whenever the mutant race is on the latest verge of extinction...where are the tie-ins titles and non-mutant cameos (to offer aid or help, not to kidnap a minor in their care, I mean...)? Why is the excuse always, ‘oh well, the X-Men are in their own corner of the universe and it wouldn’t be logical to have other heroes show up all the time...’, when it’s mutant event and tragedies, but ‘The X-Men are part of the larger universe and have to step up as heroes!’ whenever it’s a Spider event or Avengers event?

When the Avengers save the world from Thanos Killing everyone, or the FF from Galactus eating the planet, they are saving the X-Men at the same time. And vice-versa when the X-Men deal with Apocalypse and the likes. That's inherent to any shared universe out there.
You can't have every Marvel stories revolve around the mutants and their struggle, the same way you can't have mutants stories revolve around what happened to x/y/z groups last issue, otherwise you'll never be able to have functional stories to begin with… Which trumps having a functional shared universe in the grand order of things.
What's hypocritical is to know all of that and refuse to factor it just in order to blame x/y/z groups anyway.
Ridiculous.

X-men have settled into being mutants first and superheroes second. Not all fans appreciate that mutants are heroes to their people first and when X-men catering to saving mutants first some people say they look less heroic.

"Mutants are all around us. They could be your neighbors. They could be your co-workers They could be related to you. Gifted with extraordinary powers, they are the next step on the evolutionary ladder. Some use their powers for good; some, for unspeakable evil. One group had dedicated its wondrous abilities to protect mankind, even those who hate and fear them. Known to the world at large as outlaws, they are the X-Men."

Chris Claremont, X-Men.

So no, Simply put, I disagree with that belief of yours.

The X-men haven't done anything yet to less heroic to me because they aren't forgetting who they are first. The disconnect in what is heroic comes from who should the X-men priority be to save or if the X-men should have higher priority as heroes to look out for the best interest of everyone on earth. To me X-men no look no less heroic for taking care of their people first AND in the process helping the world but people have different perspectives on heroism.

I understand you having a different take on what the X-Men are about, but I disagree with this too. The fact that they dumped Xavier's dream, or at least, Xavier himself and his main group of X-Men seem to have dumped it is a big departure from what the X-Men are at their core. The fact they show recurring contempt and even arrowing superiority toward sapiens or talking about sapiens when it used to be the sole perspective of racial supremacists like Magneto is also a big departure from what the X-Men are at their core.

Yes when people won't accept growth, It is a little problematic the X-men began as only "Xavier dream" but over the years what I am going to call "Magneto's dream" has become a near equal part of the X-men. The X-men is when it is done right it is TWO conflicting reasonable views. Both dreams have flaws Xavier's dream is too reactive at times, Magento's dream is too proactive at times. But when Magneto method isn't too proactive that creates a dilemma because explain to me why he is wrong.

Magneto's dream is to have sapiens groveling at mutants feets, revering them as their "new gods".
Litteraly his words last issue.
He is a racial supremacist of the highest order, as despicable as the ones sapiens have on their side - us being privy to see the struggles and hardships he faced in his life that led him to hold such beliefs doesn't make said beliefs any less despicable, the acts committed in their names any less horrible.
Those who saw the Joker movie recently will understand the point I'm making here readily.
All in all, no, Magneto's "dream" is certainly not part of the X-Men core belief system, least of all "reasonable" (???), in fact it challenges it in every single way possible.

The writers and editors have at times parroted that Xavier and Magneto are stand-ins for MLK and Malcolm X. Well, the X-men comics are fulfilling that potential now but people went confront with the other another ideology people are quick to call it evil. Yes Hickman is purposely stirring the pot but X-men is now two ideals. Anybody come away with is happening is completely wrong feels like they are missing the point of series. I haven't had to confront anybody feeling that X-men are completely right because I haven't seen as it but I would tell them the same thing.

Again, no.
The X-Men and Xavier himself abandonned Xavier's dream of peaceful coexistence for all of us to see during HoX/PoX. They did that to embrace instead a perspective much closer to what Magneto's views have Always been: mutant dominance. So right now, the X-Men are sporting only one ideology and that is the one closest from Magneto, some sort of "Mutants FIRST" ideology.
There's a Reason why people are questioning such stance, it's because we have real life equivalent of such ideology who have been at play in the past or are at play right now, that have had disastrous conséquences for millions. So being wary of the X-Men going on that path is pretty understandable imo.

Anyways the X-men slogan: Saving a world that fears and hates them. Nowhere does saving mutants first contradict that and the "them" has to be around to in order to save the world.

See my point earlier, where I used that reference.
What you are saying is that if they had to choose between saving a mutant and a sapien, the X-Men choosing to save the mutant first wouldn't detract from that motto. I'm saying that it would, and gravely so.
What I'm saying is that if they had to choose between saving a mutant and a sapien, the X-Men would refuse to prioritize one life above the other based on their genetic make-up. This is what that motto is about.

[People Of The Earth]

Also Magneto points for clarity

1. Humans attack you fight back and even kill them
2. Mutants are what is next and if left to nature mutants would be the common species on earth. Mutants are an "improvement" over humans
3. We don't have to get along to survive together.

1. The X-Men Always try to subdue their enemies rather than outright kill them, this is why Wolverine had such an immediate impact when he integrated the team, because he was going against that core principle of the X-Men.
2. The X-Men never considered themselves or mutants as better than sapiens, but as equals that should strive to improve the world together. They considered their powers as gift that benefited them and would benefit, if allowed to, the rest of humanity. Not saying there haven't been some X-Men who held such views (case in point, Emma Frost for example), but they never were the majority.
3. The whole point of the X-Men was to Promote peaceful coexistence and the idea that mutants could strive and help society in wonderful ways if allowed to. That's not possible if mutants and sapiens keep each other at bay, out of arms' reach.

I spoke earlier of Magneto's "dream" being in direct opposition of Xavier's dream and challenging it in everyway, that's exactly what I was talking about.

Xavier's way has always been coexisting and get along with humans. But there is a legit argument that we are seeing right now for no mutants don't have to get along with humans to coexist.

Mutants isolating themselves on an island in the middle of the Pacific is not "coexistence with sapiens" in any way, shape or form. The Kraked are coexisting only with themselves on said island, THAT is what's happening.
Which is fine, but people shouldn't go out of they way and pretend that this is the manifestation of Xavier's dream of peaceful coexistence, that is a bad joke to make... No matter how many people decide one day to call an apple an orange, it's still an apple at the end of the day regardless.

The fact is the X-Men's worldview and ethos have shifted because the real world has shifted. They have always been an allegory for minority rights. What we have seen over the last two decades is a shift in state power and recognition of many minorities, at times for the better, and at other times for the far worse. Brown and black people are caged or shot down in the streets. Laws are enacted to attempt to roll back rights to marry or adopt. Other nations around the world actively persecute and attempt to exterminate queer people or a slew of ethnic minorities, indigenous peoples or political dissidents.

The fact is the old ways of peaceful protest and open dialogue only get us so far. The X-Men have become radicalized because real people like them began to have to adopt more aggressive methods to fight for their own rights and survival. There is no going back to how it was in the '80s and '90s. They are different because we are different.

Bold statement given that, according to Hickman anyway, the struggle for mutantdom has lasted more or less a decade in-universe, a far cry from the décades (plural) or even centuries in some case other minorities have been experiencing. Just pointing that out.

[Zelena]

New theory:

Characters are behaving atypically compared to their previous actions due to the fact that Krakoa, in addition to making pretty teleportation powers, etc., is also at all times kicking out massive amounts of opium, as well as marijuana/ganja/reefer/hash/hemp/herb/hashish/pot/weed/grass/dope/chronic/cheeba/doobage/cannabis/bud throughout its entire system, including the family habitats. X-folk just don’t know how to deal as of yet.

I have another theory: characters are behaving atypically compared to their previous actions because they are not the characters we knew. We saw Charles Xavier at some point in "Astonishing X-men" saying "I have a new dream". So he sent himself in a mission to find a haven for mutants where they could feel in security. So he found Krakoa… and Krakoa hurt him badly. Full of regrets, the island tried to cure him and couldn't do it. So it cloned him, but the copy wasn't perfect. So it made him some kind of 'soft dictator'. Feeling lonely, this new Xavier wanted his X-men to be around him and went to search them. So, they came and saw there was something fishy. Xavier trapped them and made clones of them. So each time a mutant arrives in the island, he/she is normal. As soon as this mutant suspects something is amiss, he/she is replaced…

It explains everything… just Hickman doesn't show mutants having doubts… it's a lack.

[Killerbee911]

When lives are at stakes ? Absolutely. It takes a special kind of mindset, very cynical and pragmatic, to see life-saving drugs as assets to obtain political leverage for oneself. Which is where Xavier currently is, light-years away from what he used to be.

This is a impossible convo to with you because you don't see that understand that X-men have been pushing a survival of the species from extinction theme for larger chunk of what I would guess is 15 to 20 years now. What can supercede helping every "human" ? It is ensuring that your people survive to be able to help humans. Once again there is nothing more moral than ensuring that your people survive.

The X-men franchise is not practical with strategy and thought process people want to see with the narrative they have been pushing. What is happening now in the books had to happen mutants the X-men aren't moving away from anything they are adjusting to the constant theme of mutant extinction that has been pushed start with the legacy virus and real exploded with decimation and has been pushed every since. Xavier Dream doesn't make sense in a world where they just try to wipe out the mutant race/species/people with a cure in one of the most liberal countries in the world. Xavier's dream doesn't make sense where mutants are sterilized by Terrigen Mist. Xavier Dream doesn't make sense when US government agency ONE, not a rogue agency is going after mutants.

What is happening is the logical progression of the story that has been going on years now which fans need to understand has to play out. Fans need to sit back and let the story play out. Hickman didn't put mutants on Island to isolate them. Hickman put mutants on an island because the fantasy world is so shitty that mutants need to create an effective stronghold from constantly being killed off in stories. Mutants also needed logical global agency in the story. Mutants are being slaughtered all over the world in X-men stories what kind of crap superheroes sit in the mansion then just run around help one or two mutants fight a supervillain here and there and leave everyone else to fend for themselves. So f*** the old Xavier dream that let Genosha go unprotected, Terrigen mist m-pox fueled riots terrorize mutants, Mutants be terrorized certain countries with no agency. If you think mutants sit on an island "isolating" themselves instead Xavier's dream is sending a "bad message". Then an even worse message of the X-men running around as self-proclaimed heroes as mutants are killed over the world and they feel good about themselves when they can do more to help is even worse. In a world with multiple genocides attempts accidentally or on purpose and they literally pass laws that make it a crime to be yourself. Then a place that

A. Actually physical protecting millions of mutants because of strength in numbers and organization makes senses
B. A Global power that can actually put pressure to make a political change for the betterment of mutants and makes every mutant alive literally under their protection makes sense

They are some crazy story flourish to drum up drama like villains living on the island or mutants can't die but the general set up makes sense with everything that has happened to the X-men over the last couple of years. I don't understand how X-fans can sit down read story after story of a large group of mutants being hunted and killed not understand why the X-men philosophy had to(has) change. The world fiction keeps having them struggle for SURVIVAL not living in hate and fear but their very SURVIVAL against extinction and their species/race on whole LIVES are on the line. Pretending this the early X-men world where coexistence, as the X-men were trying to do before, could happen is huge lie. Marvel has become this world extinction of mutants is a real possibility and mass killing of mutants or forced assimilation/cultural genocide has happened on multiple occasions. Marvel 616 entire world is basically Modern Darfur and people are pretending that it is the current United States or even Jim Crow US. There is a vast difference between staying in a country that is systemically hating you with sporadic violence and staying in country that will let nearly 500,000 people die. Saying let's coexist together is a vastly different thing in the later.

[Su_Whisterfield]

I have another theory: characters are behaving atypically compared to their previous actions because they are not the characters we knew. We saw Charles Xavier at some point in "Astonishing X-men" saying "I have a new dream". So he sent himself in a mission to find a haven for mutants where they could feel in security. So he found Krakoa… and Krakoa hurt him badly. Full of regrets, the island tried to cure him and couldn't do it. So it cloned him, but the copy wasn't perfect. So it made him some kind of 'soft dictator'. Feeling lonely, this new Xavier wanted his X-men to be around him and went to search them. So, they came and saw there was something fishy. Xavier trapped them and made clones of them. So each time a mutant arrives in the island, he/she is normal. As soon as this mutant suspects something is amiss, he/she is replaced…

It explains everything… just Hickman doesn't show mutants having doubts… it's a lack.

‘Happy day’ indeed. I like this if only for the 60/70’s British horror feel of it (think Children of the Stones/John Wyndham/The WickerMan), I like the horror of everything being almost okay, but not quite.

[Punch Dimension.]

I don't particularly like this event, but it is way better than Gold could ever hope to be. Gold is the gold standard of how bad things can get.



I call BS on this. NOBODY cheering for anything in Avengers Arena. That entire event was a travesty from start to finish. Bad time to start collecting comics again, let me tell you.

You're wrong about Avengers Arena. Plenty of people loved that book, myself included. It was hilarious.

[Vegan Daddy]

I'm not the only one who agrees

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Xavier and Magneto are libertarian boomers.

[Tycon]

You're wrong about Avengers Arena. Plenty of people loved that book, myself included. It was hilarious.

I mean if you weren’t fans of Avengers Academy, Runaways, or the Initiative then I guess I get that.

1. Once again, I'm asking, what does the bolded part explicitly means to you? That Scott's involved with Logan specifically or that he's involved with anyone? Just curious.

2. I'm not sure I'm getting your notion of the rest of the sentence not making any sense. Jean's banging Logan. Fine. Scott's banging someone who isn't Jean. Fine. Whether it's Logan or not has no consequence on the "and more" bit. Scott could have more partners than Jean. Scott could have an equal or lesser amount of other partners, but he's getting more emotionally invested.

1) Yes, I’m saying that the polyamorous relationship isn’t just limited to Jean being involved with Scott and Logan, but also the two with each other. I thought I had made that pretty clear following that up with discussing sexuality and how Marvel isn’t gonna do something that major with characters like Cyclops and Wolverine.

2) Nothing in that prompt implies what sort of connection is being made between Jean and Logan besides an obvious romantic/sexual attraction, so that meaning Scott’s involving himself in something more with Emma like being more emotionally invested means introducing a concept not really established beforehand. All we know is that ppl be f*ckin and lovin.

[Filthy Mutie]

This isn't any part of a Marvel "nuke," and they're incredibly happy with how it's going.

Avengers Arena was very popular--on CBR, and out in the world.

Monogamy and/or marriage: Not for everyone.

The institution of marriage isn't actually sacred.

Carry on.

[spirit2011]

If Jean should be mad at Emma then She should be mad Scott.

If Jean should forgive Scott then she should forgive Emma.

Keep. The. Same. Energy

I'm ok with both.

I don't mind Jean forgiving, but acting like everything is nice with two people that screw her over is dumb

What's the difference?

I can understand one, the other I owuld feel ofended.

[RachelGrey]

This is a impossible convo to with you because you don't see that understand that X-men have been pushing a survival of the species from extinction theme for larger chunk of what I would guess is 15 to 20 years now. What can supercede helping every "human" ? It is ensuring that your people survive to be able to help humans. Once again there is nothing more moral than ensuring that your people survive.

The X-men franchise is not practical with strategy and thought process people want to see with the narrative they have been pushing. What is happening now in the books had to happen mutants the X-men aren't moving away from anything they are adjusting to the constant theme of mutant extinction that has been pushed start with the legacy virus and real exploded with decimation and has been pushed every since. Xavier Dream doesn't make sense in a world where they just try to wipe out the mutant race/species/people with a cure in one of the most liberal countries in the world. Xavier's dream doesn't make sense where mutants are sterilized by Terrigen Mist. Xavier Dream doesn't make sense when US government agency ONE, not a rogue agency is going after mutants.

What is happening is the logical progression of the story that has been going on years now which fans need to understand has to play out. Fans need to sit back and let the story play out. Hickman didn't put mutants on Island to isolate them. Hickman put mutants on an island because the fantasy world is so shitty that mutants need to create an effective stronghold from constantly being killed off in stories. Mutants also needed logical global agency in the story. Mutants are being slaughtered all over the world in X-men stories what kind of crap superheroes sit in the mansion then just run around help one or two mutants fight a supervillain here and there and leave everyone else to fend for themselves. So f*** the old Xavier dream that let Genosha go unprotected, Terrigen mist m-pox fueled riots terrorize mutants, Mutants be terrorized certain countries with no agency. If you think mutants sit on an island "isolating" themselves instead Xavier's dream is sending a "bad message". Then an even worse message of the X-men running around as self-proclaimed heroes as mutants are killed over the world and they feel good about themselves when they can do more to help is even worse. In a world with multiple genocides attempts accidentally or on purpose and they literally pass laws that make it a crime to be yourself. Then a place that

A. Actually physical protecting millions of mutants because of strength in numbers and organization makes senses
B. A Global power that can actually put pressure to make a political change for the betterment of mutants and makes every mutant alive literally under their protection makes sense

They are some crazy story flourish to drum up drama like villains living on the island or mutants can't die but the general set up makes sense with everything that has happened to the X-men over the last couple of years. I don't understand how X-fans can sit down read story after story of a large group of mutants being hunted and killed not understand why the X-men philosophy had to(has) change. The world fiction keeps having them struggle for SURVIVAL not living in hate and fear but their very SURVIVAL against extinction and their species/race on whole LIVES are on the line. Pretending this the early X-men world where coexistence, as the X-men were trying to do before, could happen is huge lie. Marvel has become this world extinction of mutants is a real possibility and mass killing of mutants or forced assimilation/cultural genocide has happened on multiple occasions. Marvel 616 entire world is basically Modern Darfur and people are pretending that it is the current United States or even Jim Crow US. There is a vast difference between staying in a country that is systemically hating you with sporadic violence and staying in country that will let nearly 500,000 people die. Saying let's coexist together is a vastly different thing in the later.

I completely agree!

The racism against mutants has gotten so horrible in the last 10 years that at this point the only way the mutants could survive any longer is to build a stronghold. They can't live amount the people who hate and fear them because those people are trying to hunt every last one of them down and kill them all. It's gotten that bad. The racism against mutants has gotten so embedded into the day to lives of humans that people don't even notice that it is happening anymore. In fact they were running to take their children to vaccination clinics to make sure they didn't have any dirty mutants as children.

"The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing!"

That is the underlying state of the Marvel Universe now, evil racism against mutants has triumphed, the mutants have been forced to retreat from the world at large to their own country because the evil people who hate and despise mutants now control governments, businesses, local politics. Hate against mutants has become almost like a religion, and people are flocking to this religion of hatred to perpetuate unending genocide on the mutant race. Hate against mutants is organized, it is funded, and it is sanctioned by government agencies.

This is no different from WWII, when the Jews and the Romani had to flee Nazi occupied territory or be rounded up for extermination. The state of mutant kind is no different. This is no different than the ethnic cleansing that occurs all over the world today and people are forced to flee. Even as we speak the Turks are engaged in an ethnic cleansing of the Syrian Kurds and are planning to either drive them out of their lands as refugees or kill them all. This is how it is for mutants, they can't remain in most of the countries of the world because there is an actual policy of ethnic cleansing directed at them by the majority of the world governments.

[Devaishwarya]

In a sense, People Of The Earth isn't wrong.

Xavier and the X-Men are "light years away" from what they used to be.
But...

That was the WHOLE point of HoX/PoX.

These characters are different...not because Krakoa is drugging them. Not because Xavier "messed with" their clones. Not because Moira used voodoo magic on Xavier and twisted him inside out...these characters are different because their entire world is different.
Some readers are obviously having a very difficult time with that concept. Understandable, such a Dramatic Change can be quite unsettling.

We must pray for them.

[CoCoBandz]

I'm not the only one who agrees

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The is amazing and so true.