View Poll Results: How would you rate this issue?

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  • ★★★★★

    82 32.93%
  • ★★★★

    84 33.73%
  • ★★★

    55 22.09%
  • ★★

    18 7.23%
  • 10 4.02%
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  1. #1021
    Fantastic Member Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    At least you're settling into it. But who is the sidepiece here exactly? Jean is the one with two men in connecting rooms. Seems to me she's the one making the calls.
    That chart was simply to titillate. They are not going to have Jean Grey involved in that way with any other character. Jean being implicated is how we know it's just red herrings.

    That leaves the mystery of who Secret #5 is REALLY about.

  2. #1022
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    That is not what happened, the character was suppossed to be Jean reincarnate first. Od course personalities would be different, but impossible for two people look the same without any weird thing going on.
    She was a made up character for a specific purpose that changed
    Did someone say Hope Summers?

  3. #1023
    Incredible Member zinderel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    I really don't get why the drug thing bothers people. It's not "blackmail", its literally just a normal exchange. There's nothing shady about the trade deal aspect of it. I can see the argument that maybe the drugs themselves are sketchy, but, the part where they're asking for something in return? There's nothing villainous about that.


    Either I missed something, or I think you're reading too much into Karima's line about taking sides.
    Well, see, some people seem to think that because Krakoa refuses to just give their miracle drugs to their oppressors without getting in return some guarantee of ‘no more genocide attempts for at LEAST three weeks, this time, OK?’, they are, in fact, oppressing humanity and being sinister, evil overlords.

    In universe, the mindset probably goes something like this:

    Mutants are acting SO sketch towards us normal humans right now! It’s like, what’d I even do to you?! I’m not anti-mutant! I voted for Stevie Hunter! Well, I meant to, but I forgot to mail my ballot in time. And besides, my sister in-law’s brother’s neighbor’s wife had a mutant kid that she gave up for adoption to this nice Army guy? Yeah, he said they could take much better care of the kid, and they set her up pretty good in return for letting them adopt her son. But really....I mean, like, what was she gonna do with a kid that sneezes acid, right?!

    But anyway, yeah, mutants are acting like us humans are SOOOOOOOOOoooo bad, and we totally don’t deserve it because, like, twelve or maybe, like...thirteen?...of my BEST friends that I can think of RIGHT NOW are pro-mutant, or whatever, so it’s not like it’s that bad or anything!

    And anyway, I don’t SEE mutation? I just see the person inside? And I feel like if mutants didn’t hate capitalism and America so much? Maybe I would mind that my husband voted for funding for a new round of Sentinel production. I just don’t feel safe anymore. Not when I know that these mutants are out there, making these drugs out of who knows what, and then not letting me have any so that my non-vaccinated baby Liexzhandre Packzstonn needs to combat his Fortnite addiction. Not without my government promising not to defend ourselves from the next potential Magneto! It’s so crazy!

    Plus! Oh! Plus, they’re all having bisexual orgies over on that island, I hear. I mean, I didn’t agree when Reverend Stryker called them all perverts and monsters, but...drugs and orgies and oppressing us normal folks like this and trying to say WE’RE the problem, just because some of our brave robot soldiers decided that some mutant kids were terrorists a few dozen times...?

    What? I’m not a bigot! I’m just saying what everyone is thinking! I have freedom of speech, you know! Maybe if mutants stopped being so perverted, greedy and rude for no reason, they wouldn’t be, like, so hated and feared, y’know? They should look at their OWN flaws before they try telling us what ours are. Like...’Hello?! I’m the one who was born normal...my opinion matters more...!’

    Oops....! that’s what happens when I day drink!
    Last edited by zinderel; 10-17-2019 at 11:11 PM.

  4. #1024
    Mighty Member powerpax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    That chart was simply to titillate. They are not going to have Jean Grey involved in that way with any other character. Jean being implicated is how we know it's just red herrings.
    Why? Is she not allowed to fuck more than one man?

  5. #1025
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    I really don't get why the drug thing bothers people. It's not "blackmail", its literally just a normal exchange. There's nothing shady about the trade deal aspect of it. I can see the argument that maybe the drugs themselves are sketchy, but, the part where they're asking for something in return? There's nothing villainous about that.

    Either I missed something, or I think you're reading too much into Karima's line about taking sides.
    [1] I mean blackmail in the sense of a monopoly holding the world to economic ransom. Krakoa is not merely selling the irresistible drugs in exchange for payment, which is a normal trade deal. The mutants are imposing the condition that their sovereign status be recognised in the bargain. I'm not saying mutants are wrong to do so, but this is a textbook definition of economic duress.

    [2] this exchange?

    Capture.jpg

    I read it as, the X-Men used to treat Karima as an ally and actively sought to help her overcome the sentinel enhancements which were forced on her, but now that mutants have formed the sovereign state of Krakoa, which explicitly prohibits humans (according to Erik) or will only accept accompanied visitors (according to Jean), there is no way Karima can be considered a friend since she is not only human, but in fact Homo Novissima. Again, I'm not saying they're unjustified to implement this security measure but without more backstory we don't know if Xavier tried to help Karima at all, or simply told her she's now persona non grata.

  6. #1026
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesslow View Post
    [1] I mean blackmail in the sense of a monopoly holding the world to economic ransom. Krakoa is not merely selling the irresistible drugs in exchange for payment, which is a normal trade deal. The mutants are imposing the condition that their sovereign status be recognised in the bargain. I'm not saying mutants are wrong to do so, but this is a textbook definition of economic duress.

    .
    No, it is not humans do not need anything from Krakoa, The drugs are a want not a need. It is not economic duress they are countries that refuse the deal. Setting terms and conditions are part of deals this like a company trying to hire a person who is a genius and they demand stocks in the company. When your product or skill is high enough you can demand extra things in deals. This is not blackmail

  7. #1027

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    I keep seeing this all over the place but I don't know where people are getting a flirting vibe from that Polaris/Cyclops scene - when he invites her to the Summers house, it seems clear that he's reffering to her relationship w/ Alex. He also refers to Magneto in that "I have you" line so unless people think Scott's also having an affair with daddy Mags I'm not seeing the path here

  8. #1028
    The Best There Is Wolverine12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    No, it is not humans do not need anything from Krakoa, The drugs are a want not a need. It is not economic duress they are countries that refuse the deal. Setting terms and conditions are part of deals this like a company trying to hire a person who is a genius and they demand stocks in the company. When your product or skill is high enough you can demand extra things in deals. This is not blackmail
    I know I'm jumping into this discussion randomly, but is your argument really humans don't need a cure for cancer and degenerative brain diseases?
    You brought back Wolverine

    The CBR Community Standards a.k.a how to get along.

  9. #1029
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinderel View Post
    What is illogical about no longer offering blanket trust or having faith in the better angels of human nature after so many examples of humanity as a people responsible for so much death and destruction and horror? Haven’t they spent decades hoping that humanity will stop trying to murder them, only to realize that, when the chips are down and their backs are against the wall, those they trusted are ether not there for them, are working FOR the people trying to murder them, or are too busy not caring/objecting their children with strange drug cocktails to care? A handful of human allies does not counter MILLIONS of dead mutants at human hands.
    Few days ago, I listened on the radio about a story: nine students enrolled in Little Rock Central High School in 1957 despite a very difficult climate to spend a year there. I'm not American so I didn't know this story. But I was more impressed by that than anything X-men have ever done. No super-powers, nothing special about them but the desire to study like everyone and a lot of courage. I don't know the specific details about what happened to the 'mutants' in Marvel Universe but I think X-men move away from inspiring stories.
    They can watch fireworks drinking beer forever… I have nothing in common with them anymore.

    Edit: It seems logic put safety above anything else, it's perfectible understandable. However the Nine didn't do that. They followed another logic. They were heroes. It's no longer the case of the X-men.
    Last edited by Zelena; 10-18-2019 at 10:59 AM.
    If I offended you, be assured that it wasn't my intention. English is not my first language.

  10. #1030
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zommael View Post
    Everyone losing their shit over Jean, Scott, and Logan all being together and no-one saying anything about the heavy flirting between Hepzibah and Rachel, as if "another hard drink for a hard girl I am getting" wasn't totally meant to have a double meaning.
    Definitely not what I would consider flirting. She was trying to loosen her up.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  11. #1031
    Mighty Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Definitely not what I would consider flirting. She was trying to loosen her up.
    She was just being a nice grandma and getting her a drink.

  12. #1032
    Incredible Member Mr Cochese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nandes View Post
    I keep seeing this all over the place but I don't know where people are getting a flirting vibe from that Polaris/Cyclops scene - when he invites her to the Summers house, it seems clear that he's reffering to her relationship w/ Alex. He also refers to Magneto in that "I have you" line so unless people think Scott's also having an affair with daddy Mags I'm not seeing the path here
    It’s because comic book fans.

  13. #1033
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesslow View Post
    The "old" "in-character" X-Men took her in and helped her control the sentinel programming, but "creepier-than-ever" Chucky's "pod people" X-Men seem to have adopted a zero tolerance stance to someone who is, by definition, a Post-Human. This is what has been established in HoXPoX. You may have a dozen theories why Karima may be too far gone for rescue, but those are merely conjecture. Based on the little that we know about her specifically, there's no reason to think that Xavier could not have copied her mind (and soul) to imprint onto a sentinel-free human body using the resurrection protocols. Based on what has been published so far, it appears that the Krakoan council decided not to redeem her because she's not a mutant. As another commenter said above, the old X-Men would have gone out on a limb to Save Everyone.
    I appreciate you are technically praising the book not knocking it, but I just don’t understand this part at all. A few other issues like the M-Day victims fall into this too.

    The problem is that people keep extrapolating the resurrection technology to include scenarios it isn’t capable of. Karima for example isn’t a mutant. They just don’t have a copy of her. So how exactly were they supposed to have saved her?

    The same goes for the M-Day victims. Once they lost the X-Gene there were no longer up to date copies of them. Anyone that died on M-Day would theoretically be able to be saved as long as their DNA could be reconstructed BUT anyone who didn’t die would have to face a stark choice. If you had lived a number of years with lots of memories and experiences you absolutely wouldn’t give up those and agree to be euthanised, just to be reset back to a previous version of yourself and regain your mutations. Even if you volunteered to do this there would be ethical and moral questions before anyone could agree to do that. and this is assuming that the original DNA can be reconstructed.

    Now, if someone who had been depowered and lived a human life for a few years, then died. That removes some of the concerns. Bringing back a version of someone may be considered less unethical than not bringing back someone at all. But there would still be considerations. The person you bring back would not be the same as the person that died.

    Any writer would at this point roll up their sleeves and get stuck into these things because they are full of potentially interesting dramatic situations, but that’s kind of the point. We shouldn’t criticise the current situation just because it hasn’t waved a magic wand and fixed everything. Instead we should celebrate the huge potential that the set-up brings.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 10-18-2019 at 12:48 AM.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  14. #1034
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    That chart was simply to titillate. They are not going to have Jean Grey involved in that way with any other character. Jean being implicated is how we know it's just red herrings.

    That leaves the mystery of who Secret #5 is REALLY about.
    No it absolutely doesn’t leave a mystery. You are in denial. The secrets are gossip, just as the speculation about polyamorous relationships are. Try and force other characters into the gossip if you want but it is pretty clear.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  15. #1035
    Libre. People Of The Earth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinderel View Post
    What is illogical about no longer offering blanket trust or having faith in the better angels of human nature after so many examples of humanity as a people responsible for so much death and destruction and horror?
    Well, first, no one is even remotely suggesting blanket trust toward sapiens. What people are pointing out is that there's balance to be found between "blanket trust" as you put it, and "blanket ban" as is being practiced seemingly on Mainland Krakoa. Especially knowing the mutants have absolute control over who can set foot on their island, and have the means to secure their territory.
    Second, having faith in the better angels of human nature? When you have parents, friends or complete strangers who stand up for mutants, yes, dismissing every sapiens out of principle seems as far from what the X-Men are about as you can get. The X-Men are not standing for exclusion and segregation, they never have and never should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by zinderel View Post
    Haven’t they spent decades hoping that humanity will stop trying to murder them, only to realize that, when the chips are down and their backs are against the wall, those they trusted are ether not there for them, are working FOR the people trying to murder them, or are too busy not caring/objecting their children with strange drug cocktails to care? A handful of human allies does not counter MILLIONS of dead mutants at human hands.
    If you are referring to other superhumans not being there for the X-Men during their events, we perfectly know why that is and it's senseless to make it seem like there's anything they could do about it. The X-Office has a notorious habit to either insulate the X-verse from the other Marvel franchises that are either ignored and disparaged or used punctually with minimal impact for both franchises eventually involved. And the few times they collaborate with other offices, it's to pitch heroes vs heroes stories and serve higher Marvel politics.
    If you are referring to sapiens in general, I invite you to take a long, hard look at Bendis run (of all people…).
    That last sentence of yours is just an invitation for eternal hatred between both branches of humanity, which again is not what the X-Men are supposed to be promoting and stand for.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

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