View Poll Results: How would you rate this issue?

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  • ★★★★★

    82 32.93%
  • ★★★★

    84 33.73%
  • ★★★

    55 22.09%
  • ★★

    18 7.23%
  • 10 4.02%
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  1. #691
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    I mean clearly you don't like Inferno. But you can't ignore it when Hickman is directly referencing it in a quote that has a double meaning about Maddie.
    He's referencing Jean greeting Ororo in Inferno, to have Jean nod to Ororo (and the audience) that it's the real her. That was the use of that quote, not a subtle jab at Madelyne Pryor who for all we know is dead yet again or a referendum on her personhood. And I have a lot of fondness for Inferno, though it's a mess in many ways.

  2. #692
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    I remember those sequences well, yes. And the character assassination involved re: Scott's inconvenient spouse in that crossover evident in the second one, particularly from the tin-eared Louise Simonson (who is on record as not liking Madelyne). It disproves nothing I said from years of comics featuring the characters. In fact, Scott even says there, in panel, that Jean and Madelyne were fundamentally different.

    You are entitled to your opinion. The history bears out, again and again, that they were not one and the same beyond flesh.
    What it highlights is you are criticising people for believing what canon told us:

    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    AFAIC the reason some Jean fans keep pushing for Madelyne to be retconned into "just an aspect of Jean" or "essentially Jean" is because they want the sin of Scott leaving his wife and baby for his high school girlfriend - and Jean's part in that - wiped away.
    When Jean herself said:

    Inferno1.jpg

    Somehow this is now a writer's fault not anything you were implying about fan interpretation.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  3. #693
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    He's referencing Jean greeting Ororo in Inferno, to have Jean nod to Ororo (and the audience) that it's the real her. That was the use of that quote, not a subtle jab at Madelyne Pryor who for all we know is dead yet again or a referendum on her personhood. And I have a lot of fondness for Inferno, though it's a mess in many ways.
    I didn't say it was a jab, I think it is thematically resonant because this is the exact distinction between a soulless clone and a real resurrection.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  4. #694
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    I didn't say it was a jab, I think it is thematically resonant because this is the exact distinction between a soulless clone and a real resurrection.
    Now, now, we know that clones have souls. We just aren't 100% sure they're always the right ones.

  5. #695
    Mighty Member tuck frump's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    I remember those sequences well, yes. And the character assassination involved re: Scott's inconvenient spouse in that crossover evident in the second one, particularly from the tin-eared Louise Simonson (who is on record as not liking Madelyne). It disproves nothing I said from years of comics featuring the characters. In fact, Scott even says there, in panel, that Jean and Madelyne were fundamentally different.

    You are entitled to your opinion. The history bears out, again and again, that they were not one and the same beyond flesh.
    She really called her a trap and a lie. Im seething.

    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    At least you stay on brand. The X-men fan base is interesting at times.
    I think you re using XMen fan pretty loosely here.

    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    When Jean herself said:

    Inferno1.jpg

    Somehow this is now a writer's fault not anything you were implying about fan interpretation.
    It was his fault tho. Jeans feelings on the matter arent the objective truth.

  6. #696
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    As I said, the larger canon and story with these characters tells a different story about Jean and Madelyne, lifted panels from a poorly-written issue aside. There is a reason the resentment re: "Scott abandoning his family" stuck around for all those years in fandom long afterwards, and it's not because a bunch of people somehow failed to read that issue. It is because that take didn't fly, because of a larger long-term context and history in the books. Despite half of that crossover doing its level best to try to vilify and do away with the wife in question, the fact is that readers simply didn't buy it. Even Claremont didn't buy it, and kind of went out of his way to clumsily reinforce Madelyne's agency as best he could to the end of it.

    Further, the occasional plea for Madelyne to be retconned into a non-autonomous aspect of Jean from some fans is an outgrowth of that dilemma - they know how fandom felt for years about the Maddy issue, and hope that would do away with it for good. So those are two separate things. I understand that you want to go around and around with this, but it just doesn't thrill me, so we'll have to leave it there.

  7. #697
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    We don't need an excuse, all we need is the text. They weren't on the mainland because Scott's home isn't on the mainland. Simple as. Further, in all likelihood Shogo lives with Jubilee on Krakoa.

    And why is it so shocking that Corsair wouldn't know what it is or have been there before? Krakoa came together in the last few months.
    We have a clear answer on this now, I was listening to Battle of the Atom and the excalibur artist said Brian braddock isn't allowed on Krakoa. We have seen that probably Corsair wasn't allowed in either. Shogo is probably allowed in only in a habitat as well. I don't know why some fans keep seeing this as some sort big deal that humans can't go on Krakoa. I think solution is the habitats the human family of mutants can stay in the habitats. From what we seen the the Habitats can be huge.

  8. #698
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuck frump View Post
    She really called her a trap and a lie. Im seething.
    Weezie was rarely one for nuance.

  9. #699
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    We have a clear answer on this now, I was listening to Battle of the Atom and the excalibur artist said Brian braddock isn't allowed on Krakoa. We have seen that probably Corsair wasn't allowed in either. Shogo is probably allowed in only in a habitat as well. I don't know why some fans keep seeing this as some sort big deal that humans can't go on Krakoa. I think solution is the habitats the human family of mutants can stay in the habitats. From what we seen the the Habitats can be huge.
    But they still can't go to the island themselves.

    How nice...

  10. #700
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    We have a clear answer on this now, I was listening to Battle of the Atom and the excalibur artist said Brian braddock isn't allowed on Krakoa. We have seen that probably Corsair wasn't allowed in either.
    Well, I don't doubt it was said but I'll need to see that in print before I buy it. That said, I also think there's the possibility of a difference between Krakoa admitting a powered non-mutant hero like Brian Braddock (or any human Avenger) and admitting the father of Cyclops, who has no going interests on Earth or as a superhero enforcer. We don't know Corsair was disallowed, we only know Scott's home is the moon. We'll see.

  11. #701
    Incredible Member Domino_Dare-Doll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Londo Bellian View Post
    That's concerning too, if the remaining human friends and relations the X-Men have contact with now tend to over-deprecate themselves in conversation, lamp-shading their inherent Mon-Keigh inferiority to their Mutanteldar-born relatives/buddies. Will this be a trend?
    Yeah, definitely. Like, neither side should have to 'over-compensate' like that by putting themselves down or downplaying what they are. Nobody can help it. And like, I can see it working to a detriment in the long run; If the human friends feel like they have to depreciate themselves, it could risk alienating the mutant cast just because they're continuing to feel 'othered' and even singled-out just by virtue of their friends doing that and constantly mentioning 'Oh, we didn't forget we're just human.' Which...just feeds back into what drove to the building of Krakoa in the first place? Feeling othered and unwelcome?

  12. #702
    Incredible Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    Granted, the Maddie character did not get good treatment. This is something we can all agree on. Cyclops leaving his wife and kid for Jean in 2019 is still controversial even though men leave women and children every day all across our globe. It is a thing that happens and it exists. Some fans thought it ruined Cyclops and others think it made him relatable and more human. Again, is there a hard and fast rule that men shall not leave their wives and or children? It is a social expectation that couples and families stay together? Have we not interacted with the greater society and culture and realize that it is rather normal for a person to walk out on their spouse, kids, and responsibilities?

    Right and wrong include many assumptions and subjectivities.

    On Maddie, she is a complex character. The writers made her a villain to make Cyclops look better. They tied her in with Jean Grey and the Phoenix. The Phoenix bringing the part of Jean it borrowed to her after Jean rejected it in the cocoon. Later Jean receives the part of her soul and memories back and she also ends up with the mind/memories of Maddie.

    Later as we know Nate Grey re-creates Maddie and she sometimes still exists as a person or a psionic ghost or whatever. I see Maddie and Jean similar to twins but it is a little more complicated since they have merged in various ways (see Inferno). JDW recently said on twitter (see his replies) to a fan question that Jean, Maddie and Phoenix have been the same character since Inferno so it seems to be where he is at. But there is definitely room to debate and we certainly have for over 20 years about this very topic!

    The Summers family is definitely a complicated one. If Maddie was to be brought back again she would find Jean had completely taken over her life (her husband, her son etc). Jean has all of Maddie's memories so she would recall giving birth to Cable. Jean remembered Scott proposing to Maddie when Scott proposed to her in X-factor. They share the same genetics, powers, and they share memories. Sounds a lot like this new resurrection process protocols where if you have the same dna and the same mind (from a back up) you are considered to still be the same and with your same anima.

  13. #703
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    God forbid the species that continues to actively manufacture Sentinels and Sentinel-adjacent robots feel unwelcome in mutant spaces after turning the last few into parking lots. Why doesn't Wakanda get this smoke?

  14. #704
    Mighty Member tuck frump's Avatar
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    Captain Britain was on the Avengers side during AvsX and is therefore an enemy of mutantkind. Nothing to do with race.

  15. #705

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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    You're welcome to think that. I think it's a reach, and that it is clearly a reference to Dark Phoenix but fans haven't understood the linkage. I thought I did and that it was purely thematic, but it may yet have a deeper plot context that we have yet to understand.



    Thrillingly, I needn't bother. Decades of comics already did it for me with Madelyne, who the comics have always treated a separate, autonomous personality and person. And as Sinister said at the time, he only thought he failed.



    And yet that doesn't invalidate anything I said. And not just about the Wolverclones.
    This is my theory about Madelyne Pryor:
    1. Sinister was using the Phoenix Jean as his template, he had some of her blood while the Phoenix had copied Jean's DNA and changed her form into it.
    2. This DNA Sample only works if it has access to the Phoenix Force, it's not really Jean's blood it's a copy of Jean's DNA mixed with Phoenix energy.
    3. Sinister himself was trying to get Madelyne to be the next Phoenix host, he wasn't after original Jean, he was after super powered Jean.
    4. Madelyne became animated when a portion of the Phoenix energy went to her and a portion went to Jean's cocoon to wake Jean back up.
    5. That Phoenix energy triggered the hybrid DNA in Madelyne and allowed her body to animate, because it was the missing piece all along, the DNA was constructed to only work in the presence of the Phoenix, because the Phoenix made the DNA for her Jean body.
    6. Because Madelyne was not cloned from the original Jean, she was cloned from the Phoenix/Jean, this means her DNA only works if it's charged up by the Phoenix Force.


    I know this is all convoluted, but Madelyne is a special case, she was cloned from a sample of blood from Phoenix/Jean, not from original Jean. There was no way for Sinister to animate a being that has celestial DNA, it was beyond his technology.
    We are MUTANT..Krakoa, FOREVER!!! “Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité”

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