View Poll Results: How would you rate this issue?

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    83 33.20%
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    84 33.60%
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  1. #751
    Libre. People Of The Earth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    That reminds me the way women are treated in some countries in the Middle-East…
    I cannot UNSEE that comment.

    That being said, Jeeper is wrong: Jean was talking about the flower PORTALS with that little girl, not of the Mainland itself.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


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  2. #752
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    And that too is lumping a group of people in without thinking of the reasons. Maybe some don't want it to happen because they have family in those surrounding countries so it's easier to travel to see them. Maybe some don't want it because they are living a good life as is and don't want to rock the boat. Other people can be against it just on principal. Then you have those against it cause they like to stir things up. Then there are those who worry they may be in a weaker position to get deals with other countries. Just like on the flip side there could be just as many reasons for why so many do want it both good and bad. So your still lumping everyone together like one voice is all voices but it's not the case.
    No, I totally agree with you; there are reasons across the board for why people argue for and against. I'm not disparaging that.

    I'm simply wondering why, in principle, the same thing is bad in one context but then celebrated for another, despite similar reasoning?

  3. #753
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Oh, sorry; I meant the consensus of nationalism and sovereignty being a bad thing irl for the UK, but not Krakoa...ya know, outside of the whole fictional universe vs reality thing.
    If you are seeking a consensus on the UK situation you are on a losing wicket.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  4. #754

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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Except, over here, it wasn't ok to want that, even on the basis of security measures. The idea of restricting freedom of movement was what was seen as xenophobic and racist because it was barring us from celebrating unity between our EU neighbours. I didn't mean to lump everyone who voted either way into one collective voice, I was just commenting on what the general opinion in the media and from online discussion was in regards to that particular argument?
    But if that was the true general consensus, how come brexit passed? Which goes to show that the loudest voices don't always speak for everyone.
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  5. #755
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    The main problem with this concern over the poor, poor humans who can't get into Krakoa is that people are getting too hung up on futile philosophical implications and dismissing material, practical aspects. It doesn't matter if mutants can get in a high horse and try to be the "better ones" when their nation is beginning to establish itself. Down the line, when mutant-human relations are in a better state (so, when humans stop trying to actively terminate mutants, who aren't going to war with them, so far), humans should be allowed on the main land. Before that, Krakoa doesn't have the luxury of underestimating them and the threat they might represent. Even if good people get there, you can't guarantee that they won't be captured by anti-mutant forces and have the information extracted from them through torture or other inhumane methods.

    It's really not that hard to understand.

  6. #756
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Oh, sorry; I meant the consensus of nationalism and sovereignty being a bad thing irl for the UK, but not Krakoa...ya know, outside of the whole fictional universe vs reality thing.
    The thing is, if we had a real life equivalent to Krakoa, it wouldnt be Britain closing its borders to migrants theyre discriminating against. Itd be all these migrants setting up a shop on a brand new land, creating a society for themselves and then telling Britain "well since you didnt want us, we dont want u either". Thats the difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    I strongly disagree but I have the feeling I won't convince you…
    You can convince someone of an opinion, you cant exactly change someones mind about a fact they know to be true.

  7. #757
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    But if that was the true general consensus, how come brexit passed? Which goes to show that the loudest voices don't always speak for everyone.
    Simple answer; voter majority. However, just because it was the majority opinion didn't mean that it was considered the morally right one. I agree; the loudest voices don't speak for everyone, hence all the anger and resentment over here in the UK right now.

  8. #758
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    How Krakoa can't allow the family of the mutants? it is just pure madness

  9. #759
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    This exactly why I said what I said but at least now I get to break out my new example. A husband and wife are together. The husband is a violent alcoholic who beats his wife when drunk. She moves to a new house with kids. The husband is not allowed in that house. She talks to the husband in public, allows the kids to see him public, They go to a marriage counselor together BUT she has no proof that he has stopped drinking. So he is not allowed in her house. The husband is the humans,The wife is mutants and her house in Krakoa.

    You guys argument is that the wife needs to let the husband in the house. The husband is entitled to go inside of the house because they are married. You wouldn't tell a woman to let her abusive husband who has shown no signs of change into her and her kids safe place. And you and others suggest that what if after abusing wife already the husband calls his friends and tells them to ban his wife from going into place in town because he is can't get into the house. It is only fair that she can't be comfortable either. I don't know how much more clear this needs to be said.

    People are free to think about what the want about X-men and this run Hickman is himself basic said he hopes this divides fans so thinkinf that X-men are bad/suspect is intended but this one point though people are dead wrong imo.
    Your example doesn't work. Why? Because you are assuming that ALL sapiens think the same when it comes to mutants. That they ALL hate them, that they ALL fear them, that ALL of them want to kill the mutants.
    It's a fallacy.
    People are not MONOLITHIC. People are PEOPLE. They are DIFFERENT, hold DIFFERENT beliefs and DIFFERENT views on things.
    As long as you don't integrate that in your examples, they'll keep falling flat on their face like this caricatural one.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

    "No justice, no peace."

  10. #760
    Mighty Member cable guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greyspawn View Post
    I thought the Cable dialog was such crap. This is something I would expect to see in a What IF story. Can someone shoot him already and grow back Old Cable?
    Yes thank you. It was so corny seeing him like that.

  11. #761
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    Your example doesn't work. Why? Because you are assuming that ALL sapiens think the same when it comes to mutants. That they ALL hate them, that they ALL fear them, that ALL of them want to kill the mutants.
    It's a fallacy.
    People are not MONOLITHIC. People are PEOPLE. They are DIFFERENT, hold DIFFERENT beliefs and DIFFERENT views on things.
    As long as you don't integrate that in your examples, they'll keep falling flat on their face like this caricatural one.
    Except in the marvel Universe they are monolithic and unequivocally racist.

  12. #762
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrezValentine View Post
    The main problem with this concern over the poor, poor humans who can't get into Krakoa is that people are getting too hung up on futile philosophical implications and dismissing material, practical aspects. It doesn't matter if mutants can get in a high horse and try to be the "better ones" when their nation is beginning to establish itself. Down the line, when mutant-human relations are in a better state (so, when humans stop trying to actively terminate mutants, who aren't going to war with them, so far), humans should be allowed on the main land. Before that, Krakoa doesn't have the luxury of underestimating them and the threat they might represent. Even if good people get there, you can't guarantee that they won't be captured by anti-mutant forces and have the information extracted from them through torture or other inhumane methods.

    It's really not that hard to understand.
    I think people are more concerned about if human-relations ever get to that better state rather than 'when.' Short-term it's rather worrying for families like the Lee household, who are fairly restricted in what they can and can't do together in regards to Krakoa.

  13. #763
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Except, over here, it wasn't ok to want that, even on the basis of security measures. The idea of restricting freedom of movement was what was seen as xenophobic and racist because it was barring us from celebrating unity between our EU neighbours. I didn't mean to lump everyone who voted either way into one collective voice, I was just commenting on what the general opinion in the media and from online discussion was in regards to that particular argument?
    Even then you are misrepresenting the truth.The UK was never part of the Schengen agreement and that was never held up as a xenophobic policy from my perspective. So at no point was it allowed for a French or German national to just walk into the UK without a passport even though they could do so between their respective countries.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  14. #764
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    Your example doesn't work. Why? Because you are assuming that ALL sapiens think the same when it comes to mutants. That they ALL hate them, that they ALL fear them, that ALL of them want to kill the mutants.
    It's a fallacy.
    People are not MONOLITHIC. People are PEOPLE. They are DIFFERENT, hold DIFFERENT beliefs and DIFFERENT views on things.
    As long as you don't integrate that in your examples, they'll keep falling flat on their face like this caricatural one.
    The problem is that you want to make it about real people and Marvel humans have been shown to be generally in favor of what's been done to mutants, from the sentinels to the vaccination and the concentration camps/prisons ran by ONE.

  15. #765
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    Your example doesn't work. Why? Because you are assuming that ALL sapiens think the same when it comes to mutants. That they ALL hate them, that they ALL fear them, that .
    People are not MONOLITHIC. People are PEOPLE. They are DIFFERENT, hold DIFFERENT beliefs and DIFFERENT views on things.
    It's the mutants on Krakoa that appear to me monolithic, they don't seem to have different opinions on the politics on Krakoa.
    Maybe it's the reason why they cannot imagine the people outside Krakoa might have diverse opinions.
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