New Avengers #22 *spoilers*

[Kasper Cole]

Which is totally why they didn't have to mindwipe Cap.

The line before was that they didn't want to do it, but they would if they had to. Then when it came down to when they had to, they couldn't.

They did have to mind-wipe Cap because he wouldn't even consider putting all options on the table. It'd have been different if he was offering some other alternatives but he wasn't. With Cap on the team they wouldn't have even survived the Latverian incursion.

The built the bombs "just in case" but they had been looking for other ways to deal with incursions. They named a bunch of things they had been come up with during the New York Incursion. Since then they've been studying other worlds to find solutions.

The entire time Namor has been mocking them for holding out hope that they could find another way.

[The Thunderbolts]

I
Which, to me, makes him the only hero in the book. Real heroes don't stand by and do nothing while quadrillions of sentient beings wink out of existence. Forget about your conscience, nut up, and do the right thing. The lives of everyone in two universes are more important than a person's squeamishness.

Real heroes are willing to make a damn sacrifice, even if that sacrifice is their own "heroism." These knobs seem more concerned with how history will view them, rather than working for the greater good. How selfish.

Agreed

I totally agree that Namor did last issue was the most courageous thing done in this book so far (heroic is questionable since it was planetary genocide).

But man, he totally pissed on that good will for outright saying he almost compromised this whole thing just to kill off Wakanda. And would totally drown the nation again if he had the power to.

I don't even think he really believes that, but man, that is a REALLY BAD look. That makes Doom tame in comparison.

Agreed

If it's Thanos pushing buttons from now on, it's interesting to think that future peoples -- according to Hickman's other book -- consider Thanos to be one of the greatest Avengers ever.

I like how Hickman and Spencer are working together in this

[AcesX1X]

namor is a true hero and too noble for the rest of these people. two whole universes just got saved and all t'challa can think about is having his choices decided for him. while the rest of them sit around gaping like impotent foolish men. pathetic.

[StoneGold]

Are you saying breaking someones arm = ripping someone in half?

I'm saying ripping off the arms of a Hulk-empowered Super Skrull is the same, if not more impressive. Because he's a Hulk. Are you saying T'Challa, without the enhancements, is too weak to have done it?

Here's another image, look at the leg, that thing is hanging on just by the skin.

With regards to your first scan, Hickman's been better about that sort of thing than other writers. Take AvX for example, when Cyclops blasts Thor, Thing and Hawkeye and they all fall unconscious. Hawkeye has nowhere near the durability of Thing, much less Thor. But he's not vaporized when they're knocked unconscious. But then you have the recent Avengers battle against the Adaptoid. The Avengers attack in waves based on their strength class, and the Adaptoid continues to power up to effectively damage them. Black Widow and Hawkeye are taken out first; Thor and Hyperion are saved for last.

Avengers #1. Hulk and Thor get completely taken out. Cap escapes with boo boos. And then having Shang Chi beat them up.

Given he tried, after AvX, to destroy Wakanda AGAIN in Infinity by luring Thanos' armies there, acknowledged it in front of everyone to see in this issue, and flat out said he'd do it all over again given the chance...
YES, it's safe to say Namor would have assaulted Wakanda, regardless of Phoenix empowerment or not, and that said Phoenix wasn't in the driving seat in the first place, Namor was.
Always.
If anything, the Phoenix was adding fuel to an already burning fire.

Anyway, that's not the point of the issue, just one of its various fallout.

Probably. Although it really only shows that Namor is as a-hole that would do that anyway. Because Namor is an a-hole who would do that anyway.

They did have to mind-wipe Cap because he wouldn't even consider putting all options on the table. It'd have been different if he was offering some other alternatives but he wasn't. With Cap on the team they wouldn't have even survived the Latverian incursion.

The built the bombs "just in case" but they had been looking for other ways to deal with incursions. They named a bunch of things they had been come up with during the New York Incursion. Since then they've been studying other worlds to find solutions.

The entire time Namor has been mocking them for holding out hope that they could find another way.

But again, they were building them to use them in case they had to. Which implies that when they had to, they were going to use them. They all agreed that they had to, but they all had a change of heart. Went "Oh, guess Cap was right. Oops." Which is fine. It's called character drama. That's the point of all this.

[SKJoker]

Avengers #1. Hulk and Thor get completely taken out. Cap escapes with boo boos. And then having Shang Chi beat them up.

Hulk was mind-controlled, Thor was beaten by Hulk, Cap was allowed to live as a message to Earth, Shang-Chi struck at the joints.

[People Of The Earth]

I'm saying ripping off the arms of a Hulk-empowered Super Skrull is the same, if not more impressive. Because he's a Hulk. Are you saying T'Challa, without the enhancements, is too weak to have done it?

Here's another image, look at the leg, that thing is hanging on just by the skin.

Best tie-in of the Secret Invasion event, and that art...I know it's not to everyone's taste, but for this particular story it was ridiculously well-suited.

Avengers #1. Hulk and Thor get completely taken out. Cap escapes with boo boos. And then having Shang Chi beat them up.

Shang-Chi was wearing weaponized armbands though, Stark had been working on them in issue #1 iirc.
Don't ask me how they worked though, I have not the slightest idea if it's based on kinetic enhancement exerced by Shang-Chi moves, or localized force fields, or whatever cooky-science Stark came-up with.

[StoneGold]

Shang-Chi struck at the joints.

Which is the hokiest comic trope ever. Try punching a car at the joints, see what happens.

[Victor Freeman]

I'm saying ripping off the arms of a Hulk-empowered Super Skrull is the same, if not more impressive. Because he's a Hulk. Are you saying T'Challa, without the enhancements, is too weak to have done it?

Here's another image, look at the leg, that thing is hanging on just by the skin.

This is isn't even the same. Look the writer says he is. Either you accept it or not.

[StoneGold]

Best tie-in of the Secret Invasion event, and that art...I know it's not to everyone's taste, but for this particular story it was ridiculously well-suited.



Shang-Chi was wearing weaponized armbands though, Stark had been working on them in issue #1 iirc.
Don't ask me how they worked though, I have not the slightest idea if it's based on kinetic enhancement exerced by Shang-Chi moves, or localized force fields, or whatever cooky-science Stark came-up with.

And T'Challa is known to use energy fields. Tech solves everything.

[Andy]

Namor is pretty sick and it was satisfying watch Panther hand him his own rear. He had it coming after last issue. I don't think Namor comes back from, at least not any time soon. He's gone too far and he's only going to get worse.

[pugbuddy]

Hulk was mind-controlled, Thor was beaten by Hulk, Cap was allowed to live as a message to Earth, Shang-Chi struck at the joints.

Actually, Avengers #1 never showed how Thor or the Hulk went down. Both were simply down on the ground at the end. It's a weakness of Hickman's writing/plotting that he rarely ever shows a real fight; at the most, you see a punch or two and then POOF! everyone is on the ground....

[Trident]

Could a non-superhuman shrug off getting punched in the face by an enraged Namor? It isn't like T'challa had his vibranium mask on or anything.

He was also shown to be quicker than Namor here.

After/durring AvX Namor has seem to suffered a few downgrades in power. With loosing to Thing and actually having to go back and forth with Luke it's pretty clear that Marvel doesn't want Namor at his previous levels.

[StoneGold]

This is isn't even the same. Look the writer says he is. Either you accept it or not.

Which isn't the point at all. You keep ignoring the part where I agree, Bast gave him a power up. Where we're disagreeing is that I keep saying T'Challa was badass enough before, that everything he's done since, he was able to do prior. I have no problem with the fact that he is currently superhuman. But while we're saying he's superhuman now, he's doing the exact same stuff as he did before the power up. Hickman has said he's superhuman, but he hasn't demonstrated that much beyond the teleporting. Mostly because to do so, you'd have to have T'Challa pick up a truck or something, because everything he's done recently, he used to do before just fine.

Because it's not like T'Challa has needed powers or even glowy energy fists to beat the taste out of Namor's mouth in the past.



But once again -- yes, he's superhuman. But from what we've seen of his powers, I'm not sure he really needs it.

[MindofShadow]

Namor is pretty sick and it was satisfying watch Panther hand him his own rear. He had it coming after last issue. I don't think Namor comes back from, at least not any time soon. He's gone too far and he's only going to get worse.

Well of course there is no coming back from this.

at least in this life


because T'challa is going ot kill him before its all over. There is about 1% chance he doesn't now.

[Victor Freeman]

Which isn't the point at all. You keep ignoring the part where I agree, Bast gave him a power up. Where we're disagreeing is that I keep saying T'Challa was badass enough before, that everything he's done since, he was able to do prior. I have no problem with the fact that he is currently superhuman. But while we're saying he's superhuman now, he's doing the exact same stuff as he did before the power up. Hickman has said he's superhuman, but he hasn't demonstrated that much beyond the teleporting. Mostly because to do so, you'd have to have T'Challa pick up a truck or something, because everything he's done recently, he used to do before just fine.

Because it's not like T'Challa has needed powers or even glowy energy fists to beat the taste out of Namor's mouth in the past.



But once again -- yes, he's superhuman. But from what we've seen of his powers, I'm not sure he really needs it.

You can make that arguement about anyone. Who says it's to take on Namor?