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  1. #91
    Spectacular Member Modamy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    I never said they were. I said the issue is that Wallace is character reason for being and who's only purpose is to serve under a white character. When other characters were available to do so.

    And to be honest the fact that you are a black male in such support of leaving the character as is, as opposed to giving him CLEAR defining traits outside of being just BLACK, is sad. To the point that I would argue contributes to the problem, to the extent of motivating guys like Dan Didio to continue pulling the same crap that brought Wallace into being in the first place.
    And now your putting words in my mouth. I said to develop him since, as you also stated, he can't stand on his own. You treat being a supporting character in a story focusing on another character as the white man putting the black man down when all it really means is that he's a supporting character.

    There is a racial element to Wallace's creation, but his further development has to do with the stories the character is a major part of as a supporting character. He can develop and he could get a solo title after he's gotten the needed development to stand on his own.

    Another black character can start out as the main character of their own story, but Wallace is not that and superficial changes won't make him a better character.

    So rather than whining about a black character being a supporting character to a white one (as many characters of other races have also been) show supports to the good stories with leads of color.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modamy View Post
    And now your putting words in my mouth. I said to develop him since, as you also stated, he can't stand on his own. You treat being a supporting character in a story focusing on another character as the white man putting the black man down when all it really means is that he's a supporting character.

    There is a racial element to Wallace's creation, but his further development has to do with the stories the character is a major part of as a supporting character. He can develop and he could get a solo title after he's gotten the needed development to stand on his own.

    Another black character can start out as the main character of their own story, but Wallace is not that and superficial changes won't make him a better character.

    So rather than whining about a black character being a supporting character to a white one (as many characters of other races have also been) show supports to the good stories with leads of color.
    No one is whining that he is Supporting character. I'm Stating that the only reason he is a supporting character or a character at all for that matter is that someone felt comfortable enough to race bend a popular character with the intentions of keeping him under another character is not only wrong but a primary and justifiable reason as to why the character will continually lack support or even grow.

    He can be a supporting character with a separate power set that shows he there for other reasons than being the token black guy. Because currently that is all he is.
    Last edited by DragonsChi; 10-20-2019 at 06:24 PM.

  3. #93
    Spectacular Member Modamy's Avatar
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    Alright and I don't care what the intentions of his creations are. I care what he grows into and I think just changing his powers means nothing. Now can we please agree to disagree and leave it at that. With no veiled insults this time (from me either).

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modamy View Post
    Alright and I don't care what the intentions of his creations are. I care what he grows into and I think just changing his powers means nothing. Now can we please agree to disagree and leave it at that. With no veiled insults this time (from me either).
    We can agree to disagree sure.

    However, character growth means nothing if upon first analysis all anyone see's is black Flash and no one would be able to blame them for it. Since that is exactly why he was created.

    It's a visual medium. Wallace will need more to get by.

  5. #95
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    Disagree. The character needs a CLEAR and DEFINED difference from not only the other Flash's but from the REAL Wally West himself.
    He does, but the difference he needs is in his personality, history, and stories. Not in his powers, that's just surface level.

    In a lot of ways, this is vaguely akin to the original problems with Jason Todd. Jason was, in his first appearances, a Dick Grayson stand in complete with a circus background. It wasn't until later that DC started to develop Jason as his own character with his own distinct personality and history. Wallace is going through that now, in a way.

    Otherwise, Wallace is nothing more then the slower, younger, and black Flash. He will always be competing with Wally, Barry, Bart, Jay, Jessie, and even XS to some extent for screen time, relevance, and fan attention.
    He's gonna be sharing panel time with those guys anyway. He's a Flash, and that's a whole family of characters who are all sharing and competing for panel time. Any change to Wallace isn't gonna change that. Make him a Kryptonian, the god of the speed force, make him blue, it won't matter; he's still gonna have to share panel time with the rest of the Flash family. Unless your intention is to build him into a solo IP he's always gonna be sharing panel time with everyone else who wears a lightning bolt.

    A tweak of his power set gives him a CLEAR and DEFINED difference that has ZERO to do with his color.
    Like I said, I'm fine with a tweak. Each Flash has their own tricks and Wallace should be no different. But if you mean giving him a completely different powerset like, I dunno, wind control? Hard pass. He's a Flash. He should have super speed. He deserves the same power and the same mythology behind the speed force that every other Flash gets to benefit from. I feel like being the only black Flash and also being the only Flash without super speed....that's not gonna fly. But I'd quite like to see him use the speed force in new ways. If he's a speedster who can teleport? Or a speedster who can enhance his own strength (like the West kids did for a short time)? Or a speedster who can fly? Sure. Great, bring it on! As long as he's still a speedster.
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  6. #96
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Are you guys reading Deathstroke or Teen Titans? Because Wallace has been fleshed out pretty well from Wally in those. Wallace has a supervillain for a dad which makes him want to see the good in other supervillains because he doesn’t want to believe his dad was pure evil. He’s young and inexperienced and naive, he makes friends with all sorts of people and has trouble standing up for himself initially. He’s different enough from Wally to me and Wallace and Wally are different enough names that I’m not really seeing the problem.

  7. #97
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    He does, but the difference he needs is in his personality, history, and stories. Not in his powers, that's just surface level.

    In a lot of ways, this is vaguely akin to the original problems with Jason Todd. Jason was, in his first appearances, a Dick Grayson stand in complete with a circus background. It wasn't until later that DC started to develop Jason as his own character with his own distinct personality and history. Wallace is going through that now, in a way.



    He's gonna be sharing panel time with those guys anyway. He's a Flash, and that's a whole family of characters who are all sharing and competing for panel time. Any change to Wallace isn't gonna change that. Make him a Kryptonian, the god of the speed force, make him blue, it won't matter; he's still gonna have to share panel time with the rest of the Flash family. Unless your intention is to build him into a solo IP he's always gonna be sharing panel time with everyone else who wears a lightning bolt.



    Like I said, I'm fine with a tweak. Each Flash has their own tricks and Wallace should be no different. But if you mean giving him a completely different powerset like, I dunno, wind control? Hard pass. He's a Flash. He should have super speed. He deserves the same power and the same mythology behind the speed force that every other Flash gets to benefit from. I feel like being the only black Flash and also being the only Flash without super speed....that's not gonna fly. But I'd quite like to see him use the speed force in new ways. If he's a speedster who can teleport? Or a speedster who can enhance his own strength (like the West kids did for a short time)? Or a speedster who can fly? Sure. Great, bring it on! As long as he's still a speedster.
    that actually would be an interesting concept, a speedster who utilizes the speedforce through flight instead of running. I'm envisioning distinct green lightning instead of the usual gold, red, or white but if it's for wallace it can still be the usual red.

    I think a great way to work that concept in for Wallace would be to have it be something he unlocks as his powers and personal connection to the speedforce matures. maybe have it be he's a slower speedster (even though he's still top 10 in the current universe pre-Impulse's return) because he hasn't reached his full potential and he can only reach his top speed when he flies; like Superman.
    Last edited by lemonpeace; 10-20-2019 at 09:15 PM.
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  8. #98
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    that actually would be an interesting concept, a speedster who utilizes the speedforce through flight instead of running; I'm envisioning distinct green lightning instead of the usual gold, red, or white.
    Not new, though. Johnny and Jesse Quick could fly.
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  9. #99
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    Not new, though. Johnny and Jesse Quick could fly.
    eh nothing is, it's not like either are in use nowadays, plus their ability to fly wasn't exactly anything particularly special in the way it was used or displayed. maybe it's all the Fire Force I've been watching/reading lately but I think high speed flight could be something really special in the right contemporary hands.
    Last edited by lemonpeace; 10-20-2019 at 09:10 PM.
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  10. #100
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Are you guys reading Deathstroke or Teen Titans? Because Wallace has been fleshed out pretty well from Wally in those. Wallace has a supervillain for a dad which makes him want to see the good in other supervillains because he doesn’t want to believe his dad was pure evil. He’s young and inexperienced and naive, he makes friends with all sorts of people and has trouble standing up for himself initially. He’s different enough from Wally to me and Wallace and Wally are different enough names that I’m not really seeing the problem.
    I'm right there with you, Deathstroke was the turning point for me when it came to Wallace from meh to someone to watch. he's probably in my top 20 with potential to reach top 10 if he gets more material for himself.
    SIGNAL/Duke Thomas is the Midnight Sun of Gotham (respect thread)
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  11. #101
    Spectacular Member Modamy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Are you guys reading Deathstroke or Teen Titans? Because Wallace has been fleshed out pretty well from Wally in those. Wallace has a supervillain for a dad which makes him want to see the good in other supervillains because he doesn’t want to believe his dad was pure evil. He’s young and inexperienced and naive, he makes friends with all sorts of people and has trouble standing up for himself initially. He’s different enough from Wally to me and Wallace and Wally are different enough names that I’m not really seeing the problem.
    I liked the "Lazarus Contract" even though I wasn't a big fan of that version of the team and although I really enjoy Glass's current run I wish Wallace got more focus. As for Deathstroke I have read through "Defiance" and "Fall of Slade" pretty much just because Wallace was in it. I really enjoyed what I read and planned on picking up more, but does Wallace appear more than that in the run?
    Also I don't think Wallace's problem has much to do with being too much like Wally so much as carving out his own place. Some find different powers, or at least his own unique applications, but I think everyone agrees that he needs more stories to develop him.

  12. #102
    Mighty Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modamy View Post
    Alright and I don't care what the intentions of his creations are. I care what he grows into and I think just changing his powers means nothing. Now can we please agree to disagree and leave it at that. With no veiled insults this time (from me either).
    I completely agree people get too hung up on why characters were created. What matters is what you do with them.
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  13. #103
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    I HIGHLY doubt Wallace was created with the intention of "Black guy serving under white guy". Much more likely is DC going "Shit we need diversity since this is a reboot so we need yo be different and Didio hates Wally and asked us to make him different....uh....make him black ?"

  14. #104
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    Wallace needs to be a speedster, otherwise he can't be Kid Flash, and DC evidently wants a Kid Flash. He already has his own twist on the powers - he can use Speed Force lightning as projectiles. This was established very early on in Rebirth.

    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    Okay, disclaimer:

    I'm saying this as 1) a life-long, middle aged Flash fan, 2) a pretty vocal Wally West fan and 3) a black man (by USA standards at least), so everything I say here is colored by these 3 things.

    Wallace as Kid Flash is fine. Wallace as Wally's cousin is fine. Wallace being from the main Earth and a member of the Flash family having equal footing to the others is more than okay. We don't need to change his identity, his heroic alias or the core of his origin (Iris nephew, Wally's cousin, etc), make him from a different Earth or anything like tat. Changing his name could serve a function, but Flash people with the same name are a staple at this point and it's also not a big deal.

    That said, he does need a retconned origin. First, because it doesn't fit continuity anymore (well, nothing really does, but we an hope)Because when he made his debut, I was really prepared to be offended as a Wally fan (and I was) but I was really offended as a black person.

    Because this...




    .... this is fucking disgusting. That grown ass blonde cop giving an arm-lock to an unarmed 12 year old black is as much "Barry Allen" to me as that thing we saw in HiC is Wally West.

    This is not this kids uncle, this is not his mentor. This is a motherfucker that should be in jail for child-abuse and police brutality and I will never accept that any kind of meaningful relationship should develop between those two, and I sure as hell don't want that shit normalized in my comics.

    So yeah, keep Wallace's name, keep his status, hell, give him a promotion within the DCU if that's the case. But the origin, as it was, has to go.
    Agreed. That scene was tacky and racist. Barry was a jerk throughout the entire Venditti run. Most characters were very out of character. They didn't really do anything with Wallace until around #50, when it was almost over.

    Like you say, it doesn't even fit in continuity anymore. Barry recently remembered his "true history" in Flash: Year One, where he knew Wallace since he was a little kid. The Professor Zoom arc where Wallace gained his powers is also around 50% out of continuity now, since Eobard Thawne was restored to his pre-Flashpoint iteration.

    Flash: Year One, if DC plays their cards right, is going to be an evergreen book. It's going to be the one a generation of readers start off with. Everything from now on should flow from and be consistent with that.

    Venditti's run is going to be largely forgotten. Bad stories, bad art, poorly received, didn't sell well, didn't contribute to the mythos, largely irrelevant and contradictory to current continuity.

    When DC has gotten their continuity in order, after the next Crisis story, it would be wise for them to give Wallace's origin story a do-over.

    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    I HIGHLY doubt Wallace was created with the intention of "Black guy serving under white guy". Much more likely is DC going "Shit we need diversity since this is a reboot so we need yo be different and Didio hates Wally and asked us to make him different....uh....make him black ?"
    It was "Wally is going to be portrayed by a black actor in the TV show, we should make the New 52 version mixed race."

    If the timing was a little different, I'm sure they would have made New 52 Iris black as well, just as she is in the Wal-Mart Flash Giant comics.

  15. #105
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    that actually would be an interesting concept, a speedster who utilizes the speedforce through flight instead of running. I'm envisioning distinct green lightning instead of the usual gold, red, or white but if it's for wallace it can still be the usual red.

    I think a great way to work that concept in for Wallace would be to have it be something he unlocks as his powers and personal connection to the speedforce matures. maybe have it be he's a slower speedster (even though he's still top 10 in the current universe pre-Impulse's return) because he hasn't reached his full potential and he can only reach his top speed when he flies; like Superman.
    It'd give him a unique use of the speed force, at least. Not a new one, since the Quicks could fly (I knew someone would bring them up) but Wallace would be the first Flash to do it.

    As for how it would compare to his running speed.....I wouldn't want flight to be his faster mode of travel, just because Wallace, being a Flash, should still have his feet on the ground some of the time. I think what I might do (having given this zero thought until just now) is have Wallace have better maneuverability on the ground, and have his flight speed equal to his land speed. So flight is a better option when there's stuff he'd have to run over or around (rather than racing around city blocks he's just flying in a straight line over buildings) but on the ground he's able to make quick turns, which makes it better for fighting or dodging attacks. This gives flight plenty of uses (flying over obstacles, grabbing a villain and lifting them into the air, cyclones, etc) but running still gets plenty of chances to shine too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Are you guys reading Deathstroke or Teen Titans?
    Haven't read TT since Aqualad (Kaldur) showed up in Rebirth, and I was trade waiting Deathstroke but gave it a break at the start of the whole "Deathstroke Titans" thing. Wasn't super excited about the shift in direction, and though I plan to read it, I haven't had a chance to catch up. But I hear the book is still great, and Priest did good work with the "Deathstroke Titans" stuff.

    Most of what I've read of Wallace has been in Flash (which I also trade wait, and am also a little behind on), but I feel like in that book he's establishing himself as an independent character with each story. Insofar as a sidekick can, anyway.
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

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