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  1. #16
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Zeus was always an asshole when he was alive.
    That's putting it mildly. Sure, he had a few good moments, but then there's things like rape, kidnapping, torture...

    Why they thought it was a good idea to make Zeus Diana's father in the New52 on, I don't know. Not only cliche, but incredibly messed up, considering what the Amazons, and Hippolyta, are meant to represent. Especially with the Rebirth retcon of the Amazons. Though in all honesty, most of the Greek Gods were pretty awful.

  2. #17
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    That's putting it mildly. Sure, he had a few good moments, but then there's things like rape, kidnapping, torture...

    Why they thought it was a good idea to make Zeus Diana's father in the New52 on, I don't know. Not only cliche, but incredibly messed up, considering what the Amazons, and Hippolyta, are meant to represent. Especially with the Rebirth retcon of the Amazons. Though in all honesty, most of the Greek Gods were pretty awful.
    Not really ?

    I mean, by modern standard yes they are, undoubtly. But by modern standard, I don't think there is any God whose religion has been here even for centuries who can pretends that he/she isn't awful in some way (for myself I find the stories in the Bible far more abhorrent for instance than anything Zeus did). But the thing is those Gods and Goddesses and God were created by men of a very different era, when things were literally new and unknown. So they had this God of Thunder who rules over the skies. And he's obviously kind of a jerk because a lightning bolt can descend even of that good old farmer down the road who never did shit to anyone - except that he wasn't very respectful of his elders/the local noble, etc.

    That's why the Greek Gods are how they are - and why many polytheiostic Pantheons are what they are. They are a lot more human than a monotheistic God and obviously are a little more in your face with their flaws. But that's all.

  3. #18
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Not really ?

    I mean, by modern standard yes they are, undoubtly. But by modern standard, I don't think there is any God whose religion has been here even for centuries who can pretends that he/she isn't awful in some way (for myself I find the stories in the Bible far more abhorrent for instance than anything Zeus did). But the thing is those Gods and Goddesses and God were created by men of a very different era, when things were literally new and unknown. So they had this God of Thunder who rules over the skies. And he's obviously kind of a jerk because a lightning bolt can descend even of that good old farmer down the road who never did shit to anyone - except that he wasn't very respectful of his elders/the local noble, etc.

    That's why the Greek Gods are how they are - and why many polytheiostic Pantheons are what they are. They are a lot more human than a monotheistic God and obviously are a little more in your face with their flaws. But that's all.
    Er, no. They were made to be bad, even way back when. For example, Hera targeted Heracles from the time he was born, simply for being another of Zeus' bastards. And made his life a living hell.
    The Trojan War was started due to the vanity of 3 Greek Goddesses. To say nothing of their squabbles during the war.
    That's just off the top of my head.

  4. #19
    Mighty Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Yeah. The Greek gods may have been products of their time and their flaws may have made them some of the most interesting characters to study...but a good number of them were still totally awful, petty, jealous, and just downright malicious (And Zeus was typically one of the worst).

    But I always thought was kinda the point of their tales, anyway.

  5. #20
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Er, no. They were made to be bad, even way back when. For example, Hera targeted Heracles from the time he was born, simply for being another of Zeus' bastards. And made his life a living hell.
    The Trojan War was started due to the vanity of 3 Greek Goddesses. To say nothing of their squabbles during the war.
    That's just off the top of my head.
    It doesn't make them bad. It makes them petty. It make them of this world, not off this world, so to speak. I'll take Hera's rage and vengeance as a scorned wife over the Plagues of Egypt a thousands times over. Or the Trojan Wars. Because those legends were crafted to teach peoples a lesson : don't go behind your wife's back siring children elsewhere. Don't be vain and so petty as to lead to war between kin. Old legends have plenty of cursed families like the Atrides whose purpose was to explain why there was a need for a tribunal over just the rule of an eye for an eye.

    That's the whole point of all those stories : the madness and hubris of man is reflected in the sky because for Ancient greeks (or Northmen, Celts, etc.) their Gods and Goddesses were part of nature, they were not supposed to be perfect. But when they committed great crimes, they were punished for it. The walls of Troy were created by Appolon and Poseidon because they were punished for their actions against Zeus (in some versions, in others they just tested the kind of Troy of that era). That's vastly different from Biblical God which is, to say the least, an abomination without any redeeming qualities in my eyes.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    It doesn't make them bad. It makes them petty.

    Distinction without a difference. Lex Luthor is petty too and no one would claim he isn't bad.


    I'll take Hera's rage and vengeance as a scorned wife over the Plagues of Egypt a thousands times over. Or the Trojan Wars. Because those legends were crafted to teach peoples a lesson : don't go behind your wife's back siring children elsewhere. Don't be vain and so petty as to lead to war between kin. Old legends have plenty of cursed families like the Atrides whose purpose was to explain why there was a need for a tribunal over just the rule of an eye for an eye.
    Except Zeus was never the one punished for going behind his wife's back; the women he raped were. These stories aren't aren't about the dangers of infidelity, they're victim blaming played straight.

    Yeah other pantheons have gods that act this way and are called out. They're not relevant to this conversation about Zeus. And at least the plagues had a noble goal of freeing the Jewish slaves.

    That's the whole point of all those stories : the madness and hubris of man is reflected in the sky because for Ancient greeks (or Northmen, Celts, etc.) their Gods and Goddesses were part of nature, they were not supposed to be perfect. But when they committed great crimes, they were punished for it. The walls of Troy were created by Appolon and Poseidon because they were punished for their actions against Zeus (in some versions, in others they just tested the kind of Troy of that era). That's vastly different from Biblical God which is, to say the least, an abomination without any redeeming qualities in my eyes.
    Poseidon and Appolon were only punished because they stood against the king of Olympus. When Poseidon did things like rape Medusa, he got off scot free.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 08-04-2020 at 08:38 PM.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    It doesn't make them bad. It makes them petty. It make them of this world, not off this world, so to speak. I'll take Hera's rage and vengeance as a scorned wife over the Plagues of Egypt a thousands times over. Or the Trojan Wars. Because those legends were crafted to teach peoples a lesson : don't go behind your wife's back siring children elsewhere. Don't be vain and so petty as to lead to war between kin. Old legends have plenty of cursed families like the Atrides whose purpose was to explain why there was a need for a tribunal over just the rule of an eye for an eye.

    That's the whole point of all those stories : the madness and hubris of man is reflected in the sky because for Ancient greeks (or Northmen, Celts, etc.) their Gods and Goddesses were part of nature, they were not supposed to be perfect. But when they committed great crimes, they were punished for it. The walls of Troy were created by Appolon and Poseidon because they were punished for their actions against Zeus (in some versions, in others they just tested the kind of Troy of that era). That's vastly different from Biblical God which is, to say the least, an abomination without any redeeming qualities in my eyes.
    No. It makes Greek God look bad and petty.

    And Zeus is never punished, he doesn't seem to even care about what happened with that women and his children. How is that a lesson against infidelity?

    In any case, it would be a lesson for women not to enter into a relationship with a married man while the man is totally blameless, but even that terrible lesson loses its meaning since most of these women were forced by Zeus.

    In the case of the Biblical God, the writers want his god to be "good", because it helps them. They disregard how horrible the plagues of Egypt can be because these exists to free them from slavery.
    Last edited by Konja7; 08-05-2020 at 03:09 AM.

  8. #23
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    No. It makes Greek God look bad and petty.

    And Zeus is never punished, he doesn't seem to even care about what happened with that women and his children. How is that a lesson against infidelity?

    In any case, it would be a lesson for women not to enter into a relationship with a married man while the man is totally blameless, but even that terrible lesson loses its meaning since most of these women were forced by Zeus.

    In the case of the Biblical God, the writers want his god to be "good", because it helps them. They disregard how horrible the plagues of Egypt can be because these exists to free them from slavery.
    I don't see where God is good in the Old Testament and even in the New. He's a far worse being than Zeus ever was. But He get scott free because he's worshipped by most people in the West I guess.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    I don't see where God is good in the Old Testament and even in the New. He's a far worse being than Zeus ever was. But He get scott free because he's worshipped by most people in the West I guess.
    Nah. God get scott free because people will almost never write stories of him doing what he did in the Old Testament (and people get angry if a writer try to do this). In change, many stories about Zeus continue to be based on his characterization in ancient Greece.

    The God in the Old testament is good for the people who it helps (not so much for the other people). To be fair, the God in the Old testament was just the God of a group of people.

    Although destroying cities (with many people) is worse than raping women, it is probably the "closer to reality" of the latter that makes it more uncomfortable.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    I don't see where God is good in the Old Testament and even in the New. He's a far worse being than Zeus ever was. But He get scott free because he's worshipped by most people in the West I guess.
    Constantly pointing out the Christian God's flaws doesn't make Zeus's go away or change the fact he was never punished for them.

  11. #26
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Constantly pointing out the Christian God's flaws doesn't make Zeus's go away or change the fact he was never punished for them.
    No, but it highlight the hypocrisy of calling out those flaws while far worse beings are not even depicted as in the wrong, which is really frustrating.

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