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  1. #16
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Well, I don't remember Superman actually doing anything at all in the Prometheus story, haha. I do of course think Morrison likes the character and can write him well, but I don't think he was more effective than really anyone else when it comes to making Superman look like Superman in the process of doing a real League (because to be fair, the Jurgens 90s run was just built around Superman).

    Superman as an idea seems to be the focus for Morrison and Johns, that's why I think we see stuff like the dozens of other Earth versions pop up from them. But when someone writes the League they typically just want to take him down quick and hard for the sake of narrative stakes and then for him to say something noble near the end. A story rewrite removing Batman is much less manageable than removing Superman, or even MM sometimes.
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  2. #17
    Astonishing Member LordMikel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Waid wrote both of those though, not Morrison, so they shouldn't entirely count. He also may have wrote that evil MM one, I can't recall anything like that in Morrison's JLA.

    I wouldn't say Morrison's run was purely a Superman show, but I also wouldn't say it was more of a Batman show either. Especially with stuff like Bruce nearly playing into the Key's hands and the day being saved by Connor Hawke, Michael Haney seeing through Starro's illusions mainly because it was Superman who was missing from the world, and Prometheus mainly gunning for Superman at first and taking Batman out off screen. And Superman played a big role in Maggedon's defeat at the end.
    Thank you, I do stand corrected. I thought Morrison wrote most of the issues.
    I think restorative nostalgia is the number one issue with comic book fans.
    A fine distinction between two types of Nostalgia:

    Reflective Nostalgia allows us to savor our memories but accepts that they are in the past
    Restorative Nostalgia pushes back against the here and now, keeping us stuck trying to relive our glory days.

  3. #18
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Well, I don't remember Superman actually doing anything at all in the Prometheus story, haha. I do of course think Morrison likes the character and can write him well, but I don't think he was more effective than really anyone else when it comes to making Superman look like Superman in the process of doing a real League (because to be fair, the Jurgens 90s run was just built around Superman).

    Superman as an idea seems to be the focus for Morrison and Johns, that's why I think we see stuff like the dozens of other Earth versions pop up from them. But when someone writes the League they typically just want to take him down quick and hard for the sake of narrative stakes and then for him to say something noble near the end. A story rewrite removing Batman is much less manageable than removing Superman, or even MM sometimes.
    Superman didn't actively do anything in the first Prometheus story, but...neither did Batman, who got his ass kicked in between pages Superman being the main symbol Prometheus hates out of all the League members still elevates him a bit over Batman, at least for that arc. Making Superman consistently more effective than anyone else in what is meant to be an ensemble piece isn't that important, it's more about not needing to tear him down to make a JL story work. Like in the second arc, Morrison kept him away from the action on Earth for a bit by preventing the moon crashing into it, and then wrestling an archangel as soon as he came on Earth, while everyone else had badass moments of their own. I think he is better than average modern writers, which is a shame because I don't think he's doing anything that difficult.

    I think the tendency for writers to write him out quick and have him say something noble at the end is the same mentality that leads to "nothing else matters except him being inspirational." it's just lazy, a sign that the writer doesn't know what they're doing and why we usually have such bland/shitty Superman and Superman-in-the-JL runs. Writing Batman out shouldn't be less manageable because of the big names, he by far has the least in-story reason to be there. He's rich and offers the occasional deductive insight, but the threats they deal with should logically be way out of his league.

  4. #19
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    To be fair to Morrison, by his own admission he didn’t quite “get” Superman yet, writing him in JLA as a mix of “Einstein and the American flag” if I’m remembering the words he used to describe Superman in his JLA run. After his JLA run was over and he had that famous encounter with the Superman cosplayer, he went on to write ASS which shows a much deeper appreciation and knowledge about the character.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    To be fair to Morrison, by his own admission he didn’t quite “get” Superman yet, writing him in JLA as a mix of “Einstein and the American flag” if I’m remembering the words he used to describe Superman in his JLA run. After his JLA run was over and he had that famous encounter with the Superman cosplayer, he went on to write ASS which shows a much deeper appreciation and knowledge about the character.
    But, is there someone who can get Superman more than Morrison?

  6. #21
    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catman View Post
    As title say, Superman seems to be the center of Morrison cosmology. In stories related to Superman like Justice League, Action comics, Final Crisis ,multiversity,etc, Superman has been big guy and the center of Morrison universe. In DC One Million, Superman seems to be like second coming of Jesus.
    So,Why does Morrison always put Superman at center of DC universe? or is it only my misconception?
    What is so important about Superman, not Batman?
    Please teach me.
    Here are my thoughts on the this, sorry if it's a bit of an essay.

    It's not just Morrison's interpretation, Superman has often been shown as the center of the DC Universe. Superman is largely depicted as the most powerful, determined and heroic of all the DC's heroes and it is a role he fills perfectly.

    Batman simply does not work cosmically, and should never be facing off against, say, Darkseid.

    For all his fandom, and I am a HUGE Batman fan, there is a line Batman cannot cross conceptually before it becomes out of character, incredible and frankly ridiculous. Batman, for all his plans and devices and extraordinary abilities, is supposed to be a human being.

    Morrison's JLA did a very strong job of making Batman relevant in the Justice League (and the wrong lessons have been learned by lesser writers ever since, hence Bat-God), but he always had Batman's most powerful weapon being his mind.

    Yes, he managed to defeat several martians, but he did it by using his wits more than his fighting prowess. He lit a ring of fire when they were at their most confident and, in their panic and confusion, managed to defeat them.

    In Rock of Ages, he managed to defeat and replace Desaad, yes, but only after he was captured and tortured for years (or decades). Again, his mind was his greatest weapon, as could not break his will and he spent the whole time analysing and planning with one purpose; to escape and replace Desaad. Afterwards, he began scheming a way to reverse some of the and damage done to Earth and repel |Darkseid's forces, but even then he ultimately realised the best he could offer was to buy a few vital seconds for the resistance. He didn't fight Darkseid, but Darkseid deigned to give Batman a moment of notice, an acknowledgement of his existence before Darkseid inevitably and killed him with nothing more than a look.

    He was part of the final show down with Mageddon, but again using his wits buy telling Superman exactly what he needed to hear (in a beautiful reversal, Batman was inspiring Superman with hope while Superman was consumed by darkness) to push through and gain the physical victory.

    I think back to Superman/Batman: the Supergirl from krypton, in which Batman faces off against Darkseid armed with the detonator for several hidden bombs and threatens to destroy Apokolips. It starts with Darkseid violently shoving Batman, which should turn Batman to paste (armour doesn't make the human inside it as tough as the armour itself), and Batman threatening to detonate his bombs.

    Loeb backed himself into a corner as Batman obviously can't go through with his threat (Batman does not kill), and Darkseid backing down not only makes him look weak but also stupid. Darkseid is the god of evil and should barely acknowledge the existence of humans.

    Darkseid is meant to be a master strategist with millennia of experience fighting wars we cannot even conceive on a universal if not multiversal battlefield. He has ruled a planet of evil against every conceivable threat from without and his own subordinates. He is the physical embodiment of all that is evil, and that physical body is but a part of his being.

    This is a recurring trope of an unimaginative writer having to dumb down a threat in order for Batman to "outsmart" them (again, the wrong lessons from Morrison).

    And then there's Tomasi's lamentable return of Damian Wayne saga, culminating in Batman wearing the (admittedly cool as hell looking) Hellbat armor fighting Darkseid. It simply doesn't work.

    Further to this, Batman isn't a leader of A-list heroes and he never really has been. He has lead his own teams, but they are almost always newer heroes in need of his guidance and experience be it Robin, The Outsiders, Robin, Robin, Huntress, Azrael, Orpheus, Robin, the Outsiders again, or even Robin.

    Compare this to Superman who has repeatedly lead the Justice League (both as "commander" and being first into battle), has lead Earth's heroes in multiple Crises, has a comparable power set to a world/universe-killer level threat such as Darkseid and is generally portrayed as the most iconic, idealistic and inspiring hero DC has to offer both in universe out. Also, he has a spiffy red cape that looks cool when he flies.

    Also, I genuinely believe that Superman sells in a Crisis-level event, not only conceptually (oh ****, this MUST be serious if Superman is front and center) but in actual copies sold.

    As for Morrison, I think as someone who deals in concepts as heavily as character and plot, the iconography of Superman is more meaningful to him. As a core around which everything else revolves, akin to the sun, giving light and life to everything in his orbit.

    Even while doing his early years of Superman in the New 52, he slowly builds up more and more things that stem from or revolve around Superman, starting with a one man crusade and ending with a multiversal/multidimensional crisis that all revolves in one way or another around Superman.

    He is the center of all things, as Darkseid (in Morrison's Final Crisis) was the hole in all things. He brings everything up to his level, whereas Darkseid brings everything down to his level. Yin and Yang, light and dark, good and evil.

    So both conceptually and from a character standpoint, it just makes a lot more sense for Superman to be 'the guy' in a (C)crisis over Batman.
    "Has Sariel summoned you here, Azrael? Have you come to witness the miracle of your brethren arriving on Earth?"

    "I WILL MIX THE ASHES OF YOUR BONES WITH SALT AND USE THEM TO ENSURE THE EARTH THE TEMPLARS TILLED NEVER BEARS FRUIT AGAIN!"

    "*sigh* I hoped it was for the miracle."

    Dan Watters' Azrael was incredible, a constant delight and perhaps too good for this world (but not the Forth). For the love of St. Dumas, DC, give us more!!!

  7. #22
    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
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    Also, just because we're talking about Morrison and I love it so damn much, here's the Superman wrestling an angel.

    12345.jpg
    "Has Sariel summoned you here, Azrael? Have you come to witness the miracle of your brethren arriving on Earth?"

    "I WILL MIX THE ASHES OF YOUR BONES WITH SALT AND USE THEM TO ENSURE THE EARTH THE TEMPLARS TILLED NEVER BEARS FRUIT AGAIN!"

    "*sigh* I hoped it was for the miracle."

    Dan Watters' Azrael was incredible, a constant delight and perhaps too good for this world (but not the Forth). For the love of St. Dumas, DC, give us more!!!

  8. #23
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Exile001, I really like the way you talk about Superman.


    I don't mind that Batman is smart and creative, I just don't buy him as the face of the Justice League against cosmic, world ending threats. For me, Superman should always be front and center because it just fits so well. He sells it. His iconography and everything he stands for is the foundation of the DCU. It's a big shame some DC writers (and some WB execs) just don't get it.


    Last edited by stargazer01; 10-21-2019 at 07:08 AM.

  9. #24
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Remember this JL episode when Batman needed a ride or he could die? I liked it.


  10. #25
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Like in the second arc, Morrison kept him away from the action on Earth for a bit by preventing the moon crashing into it, and then wrestling an archangel as soon as he came on Earth, while everyone else had badass moments of their own. I think he is better than average modern writers, which is a shame because I don't think he's doing anything that difficult.
    From seeing it done wrong I figure it must be harder than it looks, but I still agree. For all the good X-Men stuff they aren't really solo characters. Morrison and Busiek from around that time were great but look better considering how difficult it is for most others to balance an A list hero team.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    To be fair to Morrison, by his own admission he didn’t quite “get” Superman yet, writing him in JLA as a mix of “Einstein and the American flag” if I’m remembering the words he used to describe Superman in his JLA run. After his JLA run was over and he had that famous encounter with the Superman cosplayer, he went on to write ASS which shows a much deeper appreciation and knowledge about the character.
    Sounds about right. There's a big difference by Final Crisis. Batman vs Darkseid turned out to be a much bigger deal but his Superman story was ahead of anything else we saw in events or team stories.

    Quote Originally Posted by catman View Post
    But, is there someone who can get Superman more than Morrison?
    "Get" is completely subjective so you can say anyone or no one. I have to say for one thing though, since it comes up... that wrestling angels scene was wrong. Electric Superman didn't have super strength. Not that anyone has to care or can't enjoy it, but I've seen other writers roasted for being oblivous to smaller details.
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  11. #26
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catman View Post
    But, is there someone who can get Superman more than Morrison?
    Very few in general. At DC specifically and currently? Absolutely nobody.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    "Get" is completely subjective so you can say anyone or no one. I have to say for one thing though, since it comes up... that wrestling angels scene was wrong. Electric Superman didn't have super strength. Not that anyone has to care or can't enjoy it, but I've seen other writers roasted for being oblivous to smaller details.
    I think writers, not just big names like Morrison, should get a free pass for slip ups like that, especially as it is for the benefit of making the character look good. Not downplaying or forgetting one of their powers to prop up somebody else. I may also be biased because 1. I love Morrison and his JLA and 2. my knowledge and care for Electric Superman doesn't go much beyond "this was a thing that happened in the 90s for a bit I guess."

    But I would be first in line to be "UM, ACTUALLY" if it was something I didn't want to give a free pass to lol

  12. #27
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Yang comes close to Morrison imo. He’s clearly put a ton of thought into Superman and it shows in New Super-Man and in SSTK. Busiek also clearly understood Supes on a deep level given how he handled Supes in his run and how he wrote the Superman expy Samaritan in his Astro City.

  13. #28
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Yeah Superman was like... the shoulders of JLA. Big deal name, carried the brand... but Batman was the brains and ran the show. Superman would be like, "welcome to the League, Orion, we follow rules here." Step one of fighting the League, scramble up Superman's brains.

    Between that and a bigger Batman run than his major (and beloved of course) I don't really see his Superman as bigger than the lip service he gets.
    I dunno, I think Clark got some pretty major moments in JLA. But then, everyone did. Morrison really did try to make sure everybody got their moment to shine, and aside from....maybe....Diana, I don't think he missed anyone. He was writing everyone at their most capable....which is also why characters sometime job to each other. Morrison has Clark move the moon (a huge feat for him in that era of post-Crisis) and wrestle a king angel to a standstill and lead the charge against Mageddon but also had Clark get sucker punched by Shazam and get blindsided by the Babylon protocols. And everyone else equally got some uneven treatment; Batman defeats white martians on his own, then gets taken down by one dude off panel.

    So, pretty uneven treatment all things considered (I guess we all have our off days at work, even heroes?). But still, I think Morrison went out of his way to make everyone important, and make sure everyone got their moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    To be fair to Morrison, by his own admission he didn’t quite “get” Superman yet, writing him in JLA as a mix of “Einstein and the American flag” if I’m remembering the words he used to describe Superman in his JLA run. After his JLA run was over and he had that famous encounter with the Superman cosplayer, he went on to write ASS which shows a much deeper appreciation and knowledge about the character.
    Wait, what famous encounter with a Superman cosplayer? I've never heard this story. Someone fill me in?

    JAK, was that you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Yang comes close to Morrison imo. He’s clearly put a ton of thought into Superman and it shows in New Super-Man and in SSTK. Busiek also clearly understood Supes on a deep level given how he handled Supes in his run and how he wrote the Superman expy Samaritan in his Astro City.
    Yang definitely seems to do great when he's left to his own devices. Smashes the Klan is one of the best Super stories I've read in a long, long time. Easily on par with Morrison's Action and maybe even All-Star (we'll see how Smash ends, we're only one issue in). I'd agree he seems to get Clark on a real level, while also bringing his own perceptions and new angles to the character, which works beautifully.

    I know people will bitch and moan but I personally think Bendis gets Clark really well too. Ignoring the changes to the supporting cast and direction and whatever else is pissing people off, and just looking at how he handles Clark as a character? I think he's got a pretty solid grip on Superman. There's been bits here and there I don't agree with when it comes to Clark's character and decisions, but overall Bendis has a better voice for Clark than most. IMO of course, let's not derail the thread with more Bendis bitching!

    I think Hickman might have a great Superman in him too, looking at his FF and Avengers run; specifically how he handled Hyperion. I think Hickman could easily transition to Clark.

    And I'll believe Al Ewing can write anybody until he proves me wrong, so I'm just gonna assume he could write a good Superman.

    Oh, as for the OP. I think Morrison writes Clark as the center of everything because its meta. Clark was the first, in reality all of DC hinges on him so Morrison just builds on that.

    And I think if anyone doubts Morrison handles the character as the center that holds everything up......DC 1 Million. Morrison's Batman run was fantastic and he did some crazy stuff and it's definitely some of his best work in mainstream Big 2 comics but DC 1 Million tells us who he thinks is really on top.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  14. #29
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I know people will bitch and moan but I personally think Bendis gets Clark really well too. Ignoring the changes to the supporting cast and direction and whatever else is pissing people off, and just looking at how he handles Clark as a character? I think he's got a pretty solid grip on Superman. There's been bits here and there I don't agree with when it comes to Clark's character and decisions, but overall Bendis has a better voice for Clark than most. IMO of course, let's not derail the thread with more Bendis bitching!
    Oh, so you get to put in your positive perception (ie, your opinion), but put in a "let's not derail" for those who have a negative perception (ie opinions of people who disagree with you).

    Oh, as for the OP. I think Morrison writes Clark as the center of everything because its meta. Clark was the first, in reality all of DC hinges on him so Morrison just builds on that.
    Definitely think this is the case.

  15. #30
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Never heard of the Superman cosplayer story? You should read Supergods, it goes into more detail about the encounter and Morrison’s thoughts on the history of superheroes. Basically he was trying to come up with the story for All-Star Superman but he was having trouble getting into Superman’s head. Then he met a Superman cosplayer at a con and it all just clicked. He interviewed the guy and the guy answered him in character as Superman. The whole event basically unlocked Supes for Grant.

    Hickman has apparently said ASS is his favorite comic book, but I can’t find a link so don’t take that as true. He can definitely write Superman judging by Sun God and Hyperion. He even gave Superman the last word in his Secret Wars epic, “Everything Lives” is Sun God’s motto in contrast with the Illuminati’s “Everything Dies” and that’s the last words of Secret Wars. Also his love of big concept ideas and sci fi is perfect for Supes.

    Al Ewing would be good too. Dude loves Blue Marvel so he clearly is fond of the Superman archetype, and he can write the hell out of big cosmic stories. Dude also love his meta stories so he’s from the Morrison School of thought in that regard, plus he loves to use continuity to build up his stories like in Immortal Hulk.

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