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  1. #241
    Astonishing Member PwrdOn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    I really think you underestimate the impact of the bill and the amount of leverage it would give mainland China over dissidents. Self-censorship for fear of the consequences is already endemic over there.
    Protests against the government are actually quite common in mainland China these days, however these rarely attract international attention because the vast majority dissidents are actually committed Marxists who think that the current government sold them out chasing after foreign investment and want a return to the "iron rice bowl" of the past. The number of people advocating for a forceful regime change to an Western style liberal democracy are understandably quite few, not because people are terrified to express that idea, but because they've seen the track record of American interventions abroad and want no part of that. Hong Kong, because of its colonial history, obviously has a different perspective on this than the rest of China, but I would definitely be wary of taking their claims at face value.

  2. #242
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    Protests against the government are actually quite common in mainland China these days, however these rarely attract international attention because the vast majority dissidents are actually committed Marxists who think that the current government sold them out chasing after foreign investment and want a return to the "iron rice bowl" of the past. The number of people advocating for a forceful regime change to an Western style liberal democracy are understandably quite few, not because people are terrified to express that idea, but because they've seen the track record of American interventions abroad and want no part of that. Hong Kong, because of its colonial history, obviously has a different perspective on this than the rest of China, but I would definitely be wary of taking their claims at face value.
    Most protests in China are on local issues, yes, andaren't seeking a fundamental change of government, no, because we all know what happened to the pro-democracy protestors in that one square -- or wait, WE do. People in China sure can't say they do. I think you /really/ don't understand totalitarianism, at this point, especially not in how it shapes individual behaviors when operating within a totalitarian system.
    Last edited by Tendrin; 10-23-2019 at 07:54 AM.

  3. #243
    Guardian Empress of Earth Tami's Avatar
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    ‘Beyond parody’: Matt Gaetz and dozens of his GOP colleagues try to barge into secret hearing in latest anti-impeachment stunt


    On Wednesday, a group of right-wing representatives led by Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-FL) tried to storm into a secure facility for classified information being used as part of the impeachment proceedings, demanding to be informed of the process.

    They are almost certain to be ejected because they are not members of the committees reviewing the evidence.

    Reporters reacted with astonishment at the stunt
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  4. #244
    Guardian Empress of Earth Tami's Avatar
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    Trump's attorney Consovoy just agreed that Trump could NOT be criminally investigated while in office if he shot someone in the middle of Fifth Avenue, when pressed by Judge Chin.
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  5. #245
    Old school comic book fan WestPhillyPunisher's Avatar
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    Incredible. Gaetz and the rest of those asshats should've been arrested for that stunt. Reminds me of last week when Gaetz tried to barge into an impeachment hearing so he could report back to Trump about any dirt he dug up there.
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  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by WestPhillyPunisher View Post
    Incredible. Gaetz and the rest of those asshats should've been arrested for that stunt. Reminds me of last week when Gaetz tried to barge into an impeachment hearing so he could report back to Trump about any dirt he dug up there.
    And that's all it is. So they can get some time on FOXNews cry secrecy and make victim noises. Paint mean old Schiff as a villain

  7. #247
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    Most protests in China are on local issues, yes, andaren't seeking a fundamental change of government, no, because we all know what happened to the pro-democracy protestors in that one square -- or wait, WE do. People in China sure can't say they do. I think you /really/ don't understand totalitarianism, at this point, especially not in how it shapes individual behaviors when operating within a totalitarian system.
    Actually he is right. My job has taken me to China a few times so I've gotten to experience their thought process for lack of a better term. The majority of the Chinese citizens see their economy as one of the if not THE strongest in the world. They have come to believe in the idea that lack of freedom equals economic stability since the time of "that one square". And have a view that the western models of government create and unstable economic environment. The pro-democracy movement in China is actually really small among the population. You can look at it as political stockholm syndrome or what ever but the Chinese people are for the most part are happy with their government.
    Surely not everybody was kung fu fighting

  8. #248
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    Actually he is right. My job has taken me to China a few times so I've gotten to experience their thought process for lack of a better term. The majority of the Chinese citizens see their economy as one of the if not THE strongest in the world. They have come to believe in the idea that lack of freedom equals economic stability since the time of "that one square". And have a view that the western models of government create and unstable economic environment. The pro-democracy movement in China is actually really small among the population. You can look at it as political stockholm syndrome or what ever but the Chinese people are for the most part are happy with their government.
    I mean, My response was that. I don't think that it's rooted in skepticism of liberal style 'military interventions, not that I though there was a huge demand for liberal democracy. Even if there was, China has pretty successfully crushed those sort of movements.

    That said, I mean, what do you expect people to say?
    Last edited by Tendrin; 10-23-2019 at 09:12 AM.

  9. #249

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    An older white guy who had never held public office and who became a billionaire after inheriting a company from his father is very Trumpy.

    The main thing Dick's had been in the news for lately was getting rid of guns so I'm not sure taking that stand is going to help peel away pissed off conservatives in a three way race.

  10. #250
    Ol' Doogie, Circa 2005 JDogindy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by worstblogever View Post
    Reading a bit about Indiana's Republican AG facing down multiple charges of sexual assault.

    https://www.indystar.com/story/news/...ar/4064104002/

    It's on-brand for the Trump-era GOP.
    And, as a rare instance of Republicans scooting away from other Republicans, governor Holcomb back in July wanted Hill to resign, though that may have changed.

    The Hill era as attorney general has been fraught with him taking kickbacks from outside legislation and sexual deviancy. For Indiana, they're just going to plop in another Republican AG without a problem, but it does present a problem when people brought in to represent the state can be bought or are biased as, unlike governor or mayor of a massive metropolitan area, people don't know or just don't care to know what the hell it entails.

  11. #251
    Guardian Empress of Earth Tami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    An older white guy who had never held public office and who became a billionaire after inheriting a company from his father is very Trumpy.

    The main thing Dick's had been in the news for lately was getting rid of guns so I'm not sure taking that stand is going to help peel away pissed off conservatives in a three way race.
    I hope he doesn't do it, for a lot of reasons.
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  12. #252
    Ol' Doogie, Circa 2005 JDogindy's Avatar
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    39 bodies found in truck in Essex, England.

    Like, holy damn. They haven't released the details, but my guess is either it was somebody trying to take Syrian or Kurdish migrants to England or was part of a human trafficking ring. Either way, horrifying.

  13. #253
    Astonishing Member PwrdOn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    I mean, My response was that. I don't think that it's rooted in skepticism of liberal style 'military interventions, not that I though there was a huge demand for liberal democracy. Even if there was, China has pretty successfully crushed those sort of movements.

    That said, I mean, what do you expect people to say?
    Most of the Tiananmen protestors were also radical socialists, who were protesting Deng Xiaoping’s market reforms as a betrayal of the working class. The pro-Western liberals that we like to focus on were a tiny minority of the protesters and if they had in fact been the leaders, it would have been easy for the government to single them out as foreign collaborators and destroy the movement’s credibility without resorting to force. It was precisely because the protesters were communists whose stance highlighted the ruling clique’s hypocrisy that made them such a serious threat that had to be squashed by any means necessary.

    By contrast, the Hong Kong protests are pretty much universally condemned in mainland China with many internet commentators criticizing the government for not being tough enough in cracking down. This idea that the CCP is somehow terrified of the pro-democracy movement spreading to the mainland is entirely unfounded. Even if most mainlanders would like more of a say in their own governance, they see the HK protesters as little more than treasonous Uncle Toms and would never support them.
    Last edited by PwrdOn; 10-23-2019 at 09:49 AM.

  14. #254
    Extraordinary Member Malvolio's Avatar
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    These Republicans don't seem to get it. We are essentially at the Grand Jury stage of impeachment proceedings. And in a Grand Jury, the public is not allowed in the room, because no one is on trial yet. The Grand Jury is considering whether or not there is enough evidence to go to trial. So I would advise Republicans to be patient. If the Democrats decide to impeach, the Republicans will get a chance to examine evidence and cross-examine witnesses. If they decide not to impeach, it's no harm, no foul as far the Republicans are concerned.

  15. #255
    Extraordinary Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    Most of the Tiananmen protestors were also radical socialists, who were protesting Deng Xiaoping’s market reforms as a betrayal of the working class. The pro-Western liberals that we like to focus on were a tiny minority of the protesters and if they had in fact been the leaders, it would have been easy for the government to single them out as foreign collaborators and destroy the movement’s credibility without resorting to force. It was precisely because the protesters were communists whose stance highlighted the ruling clique’s hypocrisy that made them such a serious threat that had to be squashed by any means necessary.

    By contrast, the Hong Kong protests are pretty much universally condemned in mainland China with many internet commentators criticizing the government for not being tough enough in cracking down. This idea that the CCP is somehow terrified of the pro-democracy movement spreading to the mainland is entirely unfounded. Even if most mainlanders would like more of a say in their own governance, they see the HK protesters as little more than treasonous Uncle Toms and would never support them.
    Fascinating way to put words in my mouth.

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