All purpose news and politics thread part v: The quickening

[Kieran_Frost]

Polling shows that Warren supporters are 50/50 between Biden and Bernie as a fallback choice. Her endorsement is unlikely to change anything in either direction, which is better for Biden since the other candidates voters went to him by about 2 to 1.

I saw #WarrentoBiden trending on my Twitter; and taking a cursory glance at it... YES, a lot of why people were choosing Biden was specifically because of Bernie Bros. And issue I tried to warn everyone about weeks ago; and people told me "no-one will not vote for him because of mean people on-line." Well... they're wrong. That's EXACTLY why people aren't going to vote for him.

Momentum has been taking Corbyn's lackey's excuses about everything being Brexit's fault and Corbyn isn't at fault from the moment he lost the election. They're in denial.

Ugh! Blaming Brexit on one of the biggest election defeats in a hundred years is very, very naive.

They haven't dumped him, they've moved onto his chosen successor with gusto.

Honestly, if they pick Rebecca Long... it really would be a terrible, terrible move on their part. They've had two failed elections with this ideology, do they really need a third??? It's partly the responsibility of the second major party to provide a serious, viable alternative. And for the second election running they didn't. They didn't provide someone who could actually win.

This isn't binary, there's more to a proper alliance than that, like compromise. You can be a team player and dislike Corbyn's policies, except Corbyn didn't want team players he wanted sycophants. It's not do everything to letter that Corbyn wants or get out, that's not how alliances work. That's politically purging and that's a common trait with strong men.

Ding ding ding ding.

Impeachment had to happen to show that it was actually worth a damn (it isnt and should be frankly scrapped) but their hand was forced

I never understood why they tried so hard for impeachment, he wasn't going to resign even if they impeached him, and his base wouldn't have cared. It was so much energy for a hollow victory even IF they'd got it.

[SquirrelMan]

Meanwhile, looking at polls has become less depressing. Susan Collins is going to sleep badly, and look at that Florida poll, too!

[Kieran_Frost]

I hope she endorses Hillary, just to make everyone's head explode.

BWAHAHAHAHA! Best post of the day!

And, yes, there is also Tulsi Gabbard, but we do not talk about her.

She's not dropped out yet??????? I assumed she already had, and no-one cared enough to report it.

In case anyone is worried Tulsi Gabbard is still alive and running for Prez. #markedsafefromsupertuesday

Oh my god, this post was everyyyyyyyyything! HAHAHA!

I’m guessing Warren will endorse Biden under the premise she can do more good from within the administration than from the outside looking in, and the resulting backlash will then feed the news cycle some more about toxic Bernie Bros and why that makes him unelectable. Then, if Biden somehow actually wins, she’ll get denied a cabinet post cause she’s still too progressive for the DNC to stomach.

At some point maybe they'll start to learn??? Could Warren, backing Biden, citing the Bernie Bros FINALLY be the catalyst for them to stop? For Sanders to step in and address the problem and demand they stop?

[SquirrelMan]

The DJI dropped almost 1000 points today, which makes yesterday's rally the 2nd dead cat bounce of the week.
Another chance tomorrow.

[Kieran_Frost]

Honestly, you guys are so desperate to fit us into your narrative that all Bernie supporters are these toxic, aggressive trolls barely different from Trump supporters, that you're completely overlooking what we're saying.

No, that's on Sander's supporters, I'm afraid. The "message" has been tainted, true, but not by those listening... by those who made the target audience want to shut their ears to everything about Sanders. Blame the Bernie Bros, they messed up the message. Not the listeners.

I'd rather we not shame anyone for their vote. We can shake our head and be frustrated, but openly saying they aren't informed or smart enough to vote for the "right" person?

Agreed 100%

Question, can we not shame them for voting Republican though ?

No. That's never how our mind should think. They are AS entitled to their vote as you or I. We can debate with them about WHY, but until we know their reasons, we can't shame them 'just' for voting for a legitimate political party (whether we like said party or not). And ultimately none of us (to my knowledge) are professionally political. So our knowledge and view should never be seen as gospel either (and I apply that to myself, as well).

I often use this arguement with film discussions, but the four 'grades' (if you will) of opinion
- an opinion
- an informed opinion
- a professional opinion
- an expert opinion

AT BEST some here are informed opinions (and some are clearly just "an opinion" ).

[InformationGeek]

Something that is going unnoticed that I should be pointed out as another thing with Trump stepping on Obama. During Obama's time in the White House, he put in a basketball court somewhere around the place.

Now, cut to recently and here is FLOUTS announcing a tennis pavilion being put in. Besides the fact that there are clearly much better things she could be doing with her time or our tax dollars, here's the point. In order to put it in, out goes Obama's basketball court. Trump can't really do much in the way of exercise given his health condition, even if he wanted to, and no one else plays tennis.


Sooooooooooooooooo, yeah. Another thing where Trump is trying to erase any trace of Obama.

[Tazirai]

This Joe Biden is not right in the head.

[BeastieRunner]

The DJI dropped almost 1000 points today, which makes yesterday's rally the 2nd dead cat bounce of the week.
Another chance tomorrow.

OPEC announced continued oil allowances. So there's an artificial bump like the rate cut the other day.

[Tami]

Just Now: Seasoned judge, appointed by Republican president, says AG Barr's credibility is in doubt. Walton argues the way Barr spun Mueller investigation appeared "calculated" to help @realdonaldtrump
and hurts DOJ credibility too.

Twitter Link

[TheDarman]

Honestly, you guys are so desperate to fit us into your narrative that all Bernie supporters are these toxic, aggressive trolls barely different from Trump supporters, that you're completely overlooking what we're saying. We are not saying that black voters are dumb or misinformed or unable to think for themselves, all we're saying is that, as far as we're concerned, they made a strategic miscalculation backing the wrong horse in this race, just like they did when they threw their weight behind Hillary in 2016.

There is nothing wrong with making the argument that they voted for the candidate that will lose to Trump, especially if the primary basis for their vote is to defeat Trump. The issue comes in when the tone shifts when other reasons are being brought up for their support of Biden. For example, they might say something like, "I think Biden has better ideas about things that matter to me, like health care and targeting right-wing terrorism" and the response is "bUt dId yOu kNoW ThAt BiDeN VoTeD fOr ThE 1994 CrImE BiLl" or "hE wAs AgAiNsT bUsSiNg In ThE 1970s" or any number of other responses that insist they are uninformed about Biden's past and that Sanders is a far superior alternative to him. That's insulting and, again, I think a bit reductionist. Sure, the bussing thing is real bad, but, as I've stated with the crime bill, everyone supported it at the time, including Sanders and black folks. Also, to consistently go back to that crime bill is also an admission of reducing the African American experience in America and racism to merely getting laws enforced unfairly. That isn't holistic and you do your candidate no favors by reducing the African American experience in this country down to that.

Unfortunately, black voters are a captive audience for the Democrats in the general election, which means that their one and only chance to exercise their political leverage is in the primary. And while I would like to say that all of the promises that Biden has made are lies that he will flip flop on the minute that he secures the nomination and pivots toward pandering to white swing voters, I'm not sure that he made ANY concrete promises in terms of policy, which means that black folks threw away their best chance to really influence the political process in this country and got little more than vague insinuations in return.

This is also not really true. At the very least, Biden has no fewer concrete actions directed towards black folks than Sanders does. Primarily, he has argued that voting rights need to be protected and expanded. Biden has also committed to policies relating to federal investigations of local police shootings. He has stated that his intent is to continue the Obama Administration's efforts for criminal justice reform, which were defeated by Republicans last time. Biden, of course, is more left-leaning on the issue of gun regulation than Sanders, which is also something that impacts poor communities in particular. Biden has also said that he plans to target more right-wing terrorism under his administration and call it "what it is". These are just to get started as there have been plenty of other plan outlines proposed by Biden about how he would improve their lives directly outside of mere economic policy.

And for all those people that voted for Biden purely for electability reasons, keep in mind that this is a candidate who can barely form a complete sentence without making some embarrassing gaffe, a candidate whose involvement in that Burisma nonsense is going to make the Clinton email server look like a fond memory once the Republicans start bombarding the airwaves with conspiracy theories, a candidate who doesn't have any real base of support even in his home state and essentially has just been a water carrier for the banking sector his entire career, a candidate who is leaning heavily on his tenure as Obama's VP but was never trusted enough to have any real power or responsibility during that administration.

The Burisma nonsense has no there there. Everyone understands that at this point. We've already litigated it and it has already been fact-checked. Republicans can bring it back up, but I anticipate it will be closer to the effect of the Benghazi hearings (which were litigated thirteen different times, just by Republicans) rather than Hillary's email server, which was a huge political issue for her because it was actually something that she shouldn't have done and should've known better than to do (it was still stupid to go overboard and try to insist there was criminal intent to disseminate information, but I digress). And I guess I may be in the minority, but I don't think Joe has ever been as concise or well-spoken as someone like Obama. But he has been able to go toe-to-toe with "smart" Republicans like Paul Ryan and "win" debates. I don't see this rapid change that everyone is saying has happened reflected in either demeanor or the plethora of medical records he has released (more than heart attack Sanders by the way!).

And it is just a fallacy to state that Biden had no power within the Obama Administration. Admittedly, I found it a bit annoying that he would use his time there as a crutch as often as he did, but, especially in the second term, they had a much more equitable partnership. Obama and Biden worked together on the Paris Climate Accords and on the Iran Nuclear Deal. Biden was put in charge of cancer research grants under the administration. So, no, I won't grant that. He was no Dick Cheney, but he certainly was an active Vice President.

Before I move on from this point, I also want to point out that this idea that Biden isn't strong enough to go up against Trump doesn't really seem supported by the data that is available to us. Trump hasn't gone above majority disapproval the entire time he has been office. He won election against a candidate who was the second most unpopular candidate in American history, only in front of him. He lost the popular vote by the largest margin of any electoral college winner in history. Trump has only gotten more unpopular as a president than he was as a candidate outside of the Republican Party. Part of the reason he won is because he was viewed as less partisan than Hillary. Trump portrayed himself as a different kind of Republican--one that wouldn't cut Social Security or Medicare and one that wouldn't expand trade or get us into endless wars. Hillary Clinton was viewed as the same old liberal Democrat TOO FAR to left, unlike Trump who seemed, on the face, to be more to the middle. That's why Trump won by double-digits among those who didn't like Clinton. But it was clear that Trump was lying about all of it. We have four years of receipts for how he governs and he governs just like a typical Republican without the proper temperament of even a George W. Bush.

Meanwhile, Biden is much more popular than Hillary Clinton is. Even Sanders tone with Biden is a lot more mild than his tone was with Clinton (Sanders always says he is a decent man--this wasn't something he ever said about Clinton). Sanders, meanwhile, is not matching the same percentage of the vote from moderates and those further to the right in the party than he did last time. Being the not-Clinton candidate did him a lot of favors in 2016 that being the not-Biden candidate isn't doing here. We can ask how much of that is actually due to being that different on policy and how much more it has to do with Biden having a penis while Clinton didn't, but that is digression that I would really rather not expound upon here. Meanwhile, on the general election side, Clinton was NEVER friends with Republicans and was demonized in Conservative circles for over twenty years before she ran in 2016. This allowed even independents to be turned against her. With Biden, we've had those same Republicans and Conservative circles giving Biden the benefit of the doubt because he had a habit of making friends across the aisle. We have these Republicans on tape saying that they like Biden. Biden's team, if they're smart, can use those clips whenever they try to change their tune in the election. On top of all of this, Biden consistently does better than Sanders in match-ups against Trump. That's just a fact, regardless of whether or not we think that will change or if we think it should be different. It just is what it is.

But there is something even bigger going on that I don't think has gotten the attention on this forum that it should: turnout is double what it was in 2016 for this primary and even breaks the record of what we saw in 2008. And that turnout seems to be coming from the same areas that we have seen break for Democrats in 2018. Guess who they are voting for? Is the coalition that got us the House majority in 2018 voting for Bernie Sanders, self-described socialist? NOPE. They are out there voting for Biden, telling us that they want Biden to be president. I'm not sure if they would throw tantrums with Sanders, but it is clear that they, for whatever reason, are more taken with Biden than Sanders. We should be trying to keep this coalition, because they are a coalition we know we can count on. They aren't Sanders' phantom "revolution" coalition. This one gave us real results and handed us a 10% popular vote win in 2018. Those are the kind of results we want to replicate in 2020. We don't need Sanders' phantom "revolution" when we have a very real group that is willing to go with us to bat in the general. That's just the way it is.

[TheDarman]

(continued from last post)

It is true that Bernie didn't make any promises to uplift the condition of black people specifically, but he has a whole range of policy proposals that will have undoubtedly positive impacts for black folks up and down the socioeconomic ladder.

I don't know about up-and-down the social ladder. Bernie is pretty monolithic in his focus on the working class. Those policies, should they be enacted, would yield positive benefits towards those at the lower end of the socioeconomic ladder. I agree and I would love to see those plans come to fruition. And, maybe, if we had elected Hillary Clinton in 2016, we would only be four more years away from another Democrat like Sanders (AOC perhaps) taking up those reins and pursuing these policies without fear of a Supreme Court majority striking it down. But, now, Scalia's seat that opened up a whole year before Obama left office has been filled by Gorsuch--a guy who protected a truck company over a trucker who would've frozen to death if he hadn't abandoned his cargo. And Justice Kennedy's seat, a seat which held the swing vote on the Court, was filled by Kavanaugh--whose issues have long been litigated in this thread. Bill Clinton gave us Ruth Bader Ginsburg. If nothing else, the liberal justices would have said, "It isn't for us to decide on these issues, but, rather, for Congress and the people to make these decisions." But, no, we didn't vote en masse around the country to ensure Hillary Clinton, who was a policy wonk, just like Warren was this time, with clear and concrete plans for everything, would be the president to pick the replacements for these Justices. And so now we can only hope that we stop Trump from making the bench a 7-2 conservative dominated court.

He may have to deal with a hostile House and Senate, not to mention the courts, in order to pass his agenda, but ANY Democratic president would have to face the same obstacles and even if you don't support Bernie you have to respect his conviction, dedication to his principles, and willingness to fight for what he believes in, none of which you could honestly say about Joe Biden.

I respect it. I've always respected idealists. But I do doubt their ability to lead and make compromises. The place for Sanders is right where he is at--fighting the good fight as the figurehead of a movement and being a thorn in Biden's side if he doesn't listen to progressives he needs to win over in order to keep his job. And, no, I don't have ANY illusions about the fact that Republicans WILL NOT help Biden with his agenda any more than they will help Sanders or they did Obama.

I saw Obama's eight years. I saw him take moderate economic stances (which I do agree with and I know many progressives don't) about allowing for inner cities to be tax free havens for businesses and continuing free trade programs with more worker protections than there had ever been (seriously, read the TPP--this thing was all about IP protection and reducing copyright protections on prescription drugs and putting in place environmental standards in other countries and putting in place mandatory compliance with labor laws which would even the playing field) that won him no support from Republicans. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

However, Biden does have an edge against Sanders on another demographic that is very important: moderate Democrats. Regardless of how well we do in the upcoming election, we will not have enough "safe blue" seats in the Senate or the House for a few Democrats not to have their feet held to the fire. How do they go back to their majority conservative districts and explain why they voted for "socialized medicine"? Frankly, I agree with Sanders that there are too many market failures and that the government should take care of health care. But how on earth are we supposed to accomplish that when conservative voters don't see it that way? If moderate Democrats see their careers at stake with these votes they, like all politicians, won't vote for it. And, frankly, if people in their district don't want it, they shouldn't vote for it. They are there to represent them and their interests.

You know what a public option DOES accomplish? It brings a government-based plan into the fore, which can be completely subsidized for poorer folks with Obamacare subsidies, and allows for all of us to buy into government health care. When it becomes clear that this is the better option and that it is more cost-efficient for what we get, private health care companies will naturally be reduced to nothing because they can't compete. The government will have a plan that isn't priced for profit. That is something insurance companies can't say. We get to virtually universal health care much quicker this way and it allows for government health care to win in a marketplace. This is a plan that moderate Democrats can defend as a cost control measure AND it provides health care to everyone, virtually free of charge if you can't afford it.

This is what I mean. This is why we can't just worry about Republicans supporting things. We need the whole party behind us if we are going to pass anything BECAUSE Republicans won't be fair and they won't support these bills. Sanders can't get the full party behind him.

And sure, you may look at all that with a skeptical eye and think that this is just another white politician promising the moon who will forget all about black people the minute he gets into office, but if that's true about Bernie it DEFINITELY applies ten times over to Biden.

I don't think it does. FDR and LBJ were worse social justice leaders than Barack Obama. Bet you can't guess which ones were primarily focused on economic programs to help the "working class" and which one was looking to ensure justice for racial, ethnic, and sexual minorities. I'll give you a hint--the latter rhymes with Sarack Lebama.

I firmly believe Bernie and progressives as a whole take the interests of black people far closer to our hearts than Biden and other wishy washy centrists ever could. You don't have to trust me, but at the very least, think twice before listening to all these moderates who want to slander all of us as racists and toxic bros.

See, I believe most progressives truly do care. But a few in the progressive camp are willing to buy into campaigns that don't really take a critical look at these issues without a second thought.

And, sorry, but I've seen progressives slander people who agree with Obama and Biden on economic issues as "corportatist" and "establishment" or that they "hate poor people". So, let's not pretend that generalizing outwards from what we have seen among the worst supporters on each side hasn't been a practice used by both progressives and moderates.

This Joe Biden is not right in the head.

You've seen Trump talk right? And, again, this isn't anything that Biden supporters don't know about him. He has never been a great communicator. But it doesn't mean that he has some kind of mental faculty decline. We have medical records that are verified to come from real doctors that this just isn't the case. But we do know that Sanders has had a heart attack. What do you think the life expectancy is for someone of his age after they've had a serious heart attack like that? Especially when they want to take on a stressful job? Hint: it isn't two terms.

Also, I will not give these guys any clicks. People like him and Jimmy Dore argued that we should let Trump take last election and then maybe after four years of terribleness we might finally get a revolution. The level of privilege you have to have to make that argument--let people suffer so that I can get the policies I want--is astronomic. They aren't reliable. They're shills for Sanders...to the detriment of the country if need be.

[Tami]

The relationship between Warren and Sanders almost reminds me of the relationship of an abused spouse and her abuser.

I hope she doesn't endorse anyone, it won't help her or anyone.

[TheDarman]

The relationship between Warren and Sanders almost reminds me of the relationship of an abused spouse and her abuser.

I hope she doesn't endorse anyone, it won't help her or anyone.

I think she'll wait until after this Tuesday, see which way the winds are shifting, and endorse the eminent winner to get a spot in their administration. I think she truly has ambition above and beyond her Senate seat and she will want to make a real difference in either one of their administrations. I have no doubt that both of them putting out a carrot. I'm curious to see if she'll bite at all, but I really do think she ultimately will--only after she has clearer idea of what the race looks like without her in it.

[Iron Maiden]

This Joe Biden is not right in the head.

No thanks.... I don't fall for click bait

[Adam Allen]

I think that what really sucks right now is that however strongly one may feel that either Bernie or Biden is such an incredibly terrible choice who cannot win, if the current delegate count is any indication, then approximately half of the people you need on your side unfortunately disagree with you, vehemently so.

The Democratic vote seems disastrously split, and it's not just a vocal minority of online "Bernie Bros", or a small cabal of backroom establishment politicians rigging it for the moderates. There seem to be many people in both camps who feel very strongly, and at this point, when we really need to see a common path ... seems like we are more divided than ever. I don't doubt that the majority will ultimately support whoever gets the nomination, but it will be a grudging support, versus people who are inexplicably still very excited for Trump.

I don't think Warren throwing her support behind either Biden or Bernie at this point will sway the majority who currently prefer one over the other. The only thing that possibly could would be if one of the two front-runners dropped out, to throw his support behind the other and spend the rest of the campaign season loudly proclaiming that we need to be all on board together, if we are to have any chance at all.

And of course, that's not going to happen. So, four more years of Trump. Goddamnit, America.