All purpose news and politics thread part v: The quickening

[numberthirty]

Fair enough, I just wanted to call out bad-faith arguments and misuse of ''what aboutism'' on this thread, especially since someone here wants to troll rather than discuss.

My point was some people here seem to think Bernie is somehow stunning ignorant on this issue and Biden is some super justice warrior on this issue when that is clearly not the case. Bernie's record constantly under a microscope while Biden constantly gets a pass shows some people on this thread are using an important issue to score cheap political points and that is just cynical, IMO.



Except others brought up this issue, I was responding to them

I am saying people on this thread are making bad-faith arguments, they want to present Bernie's as some brutish neanderthal on this issue, while Biden is presented as some sort of super justice warrior on this issue and any talk of his record just gets a shrug.

I would consider this a good-faith argument, if everyone's record was looked equally, rather one person getting a pass.

The reality is that anything like a even slightly serious discussion about how thing happened is going to be pointless in this instance.

What's actually happening is obviously out there to see. Should probably take it about as seriously as that sort of thing should be.

[aja_christopher]

Fair enough, I just wanted to call out bad-faith arguments and misuse of ''what aboutism'' on this thread, especially since someone here wants to troll rather than discuss.

Look -- I know you're worked up about last night but it really just comes down to Sanders doing what he claims he's going to do.

Mobilize the youth, combat police brutality, legislate universal health care -- whatever.

It's not anything to be argued over -- it's something Sanders has to "prove" that he can do.

[TheDarman]

Except others brought up this issue, I was responding to them

I am saying people on this thread are making bad-faith arguments, they want to present Bernie's as some brutish neanderthal on this issue, while Biden is presented as some sort of super justice warrior on this issue and any talk of his record just gets a shrug.

I would consider this a good-faith argument, if everyone's record was looked equally, rather one person getting a pass.

My point isn’t that Biden has been better on racial justice. He has a far more mixed record. But the point isn’t what you did—it's what you plan to do now. And I think part of what Biden has down is that he is delivering the nuance and idea that you need comprehensive plans to deal with all aspects of structural racism rather than just removing barriers to vote, helping poor people, and doing some criminal justice reform package.

Plus, I think the perception largely is that Biden did his time for his screw-ups and it is time to see if he can make good on these big promises for real, comprehensive social change.

[Theleviathan]

Does Biden get absolved from personal responsibility then?

Biden's case is electability, it's his job to convince people to vote for him, no one is duty-bound to vote for him. If Biden is allowed to enjoy the spoils victory, then he must bear the weight of defeat, his electablity case means nothing he cannot held responbile for his victories and defeats.

I'll hold Biden responsible for his failures, should they happen, just as I did Clinton. I blamed a poor campaign, Jill Stein, Russia, and (mostly) her negatives with voters for her loss.

But I'm consistent on political issues because I make it a point not to make candidates any churches at which I can worship.

[numberthirty]

This makes no sense.

Nobody is expecting him to solve it by itself, but the least he could do was make it a bigger issue to campaign on and fight for publicly. He's supposed to be a fighter, so why wasn't he fighting? Going on tv shows, speeches in congress, you name it. This was in his state, so it should be more of a high priority.

Instead you'd rather we ignore it because it makes Sanders look bad. His reputation would crumble further in the primaries had other candidates and PAC's weaponised it against him.

Look, you'd rather ignore that there was one person even talking about doing the right thing than discuss that no one else even put that much thought into it. That Sanders should have been the one person picking up the ball and running with it while everyone else apparently gets a pass.

Copy that.

[The Overlord]

Look -- I know you're worked up about last night but it really just comes down to Sanders doing what he claims he's going to do.

Mobilize the youth, combat police brutality, legislate universal health care -- whatever.

It's not anything to be argued over -- it's something Sanders has to "prove" that he can do.

Then stop making bad-faith arguments and trolling.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Look, you'd rather ignore that there was one person even talking about doing the right thing than discuss that no one else even put that much thought into it. That Sanders should have been the one person picking up the ball and running with it while everyone else apparently gets a pass.

Copy that.

He talked about it once, in the 90's. You talk about sanders as though it was a defining event for his campaign, that's something I wanted him to do and why shouldn't be a worth cause to raise his flag to? It's citizens in his state.

You're avoiding one crucial question: why didn't Sanders do more on this issue?

I didn't say anyone else got a pass. I'm judging Sanders within the context of his political career.

[numberthirty]

The quote cited was about “preventive justice”, not racial justice. And Sanders’ quote wasn’t used widely because the prevailing idea for what we wanted was “retributive justice”. I can agree that I prefer “preventive justice” as a cause, but it wasn’t because Sanders was more enlightened about what effect it would have on the black community. No one, not even black politicians, fully understood what they were about to do. Sanders has always been committed to “preventive justice”—that’s what his entire campaign is about, right?—but it wasn’t particularly focused on the impact it would have on these communities, because it was assumed it would be comprehensive and work the same way for all communities. And Sanders was just as concerned about white working class folk screwed by the man who got involved in criminal activity because they were down on their luck as he was the black family. Any other reading of it is giving the man way more credit than he has earned given how surface level his commentary on racial injustice has been.

Politely, where did you get the idea that is what I am asserting?

The reality is that Sanders was advocating an approach that would have resulted in less people, no matter what race, would have gone to jail because of short-sighted and ill-advised policy.

Trying to swerve over to make it about racial justice in what feels like(and, obviously I could be misreading what you are doing...) an attempt to change the subject from that Sanders approach to justice would clearly have been the right one is where you are losing me.

[numberthirty]

He talked about it once, in the 90's. You talk about sanders as though it was a defining event for his campaign, that's something I wanted him to do and why shouldn't be a worth cause to raise his flag to? It's citizens in his state.

You're avoiding one crucial question: why didn't Sanders do more on this issue?

I didn't say anyone else got a pass. I'm judging Sanders within the context of his political career.

While clearly avoiding discussing anyone but Sanders and what they should have done.

Can you not see how this looks, to me?

[The Overlord]

My point isn’t that Biden has been better on racial justice. He has a far more mixed record. But the point isn’t what you did—it's what you plan to do now. And I think part of what Biden has down is that he is delivering the nuance and idea that you need comprehensive plans to deal with all aspects of structural racism rather than just removing barriers to vote, helping poor people, and doing some criminal justice reform package.

Plus, I think the perception largely is that Biden did his time for his screw-ups and it is time to see if he can make good on these big promises for real, comprehensive social change.

My point is some people seem to bring this up some club to use against Sanders, rather than a general policy discussion that applies to everyone, including Biden. I would have less of a problem with it, if some people did not use it in bad faith.

[Steel Inquisitor]

While clearly avoiding discussing anyone but Sanders and what they should have done.

Can you not see how this looks, to me?

I'm not avoiding anything. You, however, are moving the goal posts like an Olympic athlete. Anything to not acknowledge Sanders has failed horribly on this topic.

[TheDarman]

Politely, where did you get the idea that is what I am asserting?

The reality is that Sanders was advocating an approach that would have resulted in less people, no matter what race, would have gone to jail because of short-sighted and ill-advised policy.

Trying to swerve over to make it about racial justice in what feels like(and, obviously I could be misreading what you are doing...) an attempt to change the subject from that Sanders approach to justice would clearly have been the right one is where you are losing me.

No, I’m merely saying it wasn’t Sanders being more enlightened on racial policy and fighting the good fight there. It was more about a general view of what justice should mean. So I don’t necessarily know that we should be giving him “points” here for “being there for black people” when other candidates weren’t, especially since support for the bill was high among black folks at the time, because Bernie’s view of justice isn’t popular, and really hasn’t become any more popular since.

[numberthirty]

I'm not avoiding anything. You, however, are moving the goal posts like an Olympic athlete. Anything to not acknowledge Sanders has failed horribly on this topic.

Again, you're looking to after Sanders(who was one of the only people arguing not creating a problem in the first place...) while avoiding any sort of discussion about the people who were wrong start to finish.

Got it.

[numberthirty]

No, I’m merely saying it wasn’t Sanders being more enlightened on racial policy and fighting the good fight there. It was more about a general view of what justice should mean. So I don’t necessarily know that we should be giving him “points” here for “being there for black people” when other candidates weren’t, especially since support for the bill was high among black folks at the time, because Bernie’s view of justice isn’t popular, and really hasn’t become any more popular since.

That's where we've go to politely disagree.

There is no scenario that I can conceive of where prevention versus punishment as the approach was not "Fighting The Good Fight..."


That he was, at least, trying to get other folks to see reason is doing just that.

Also, no one is giving points for being there for black people when other candidates weren't. You're trying to have a discussion that I am not. Doesn't change that he was advocating an approach that would have been better for everyone.

As for that it isn't popular? Doing the right thing often isn't.

[aja_christopher]

Then stop making bad-faith arguments and trolling.

Only one person here is arguing and honestly -- you make it hard to take having a conversation with you seriously.

The other option is to just ignore you but I wanted to see what you might have to say after Sanders didn't back his talk up last night.

Which was nothing new.